Recent Updates and Progress
After careful consideration and valuable community feedback, we've decided to pivot our approach in a way that we believe will provide maximum value to the Hive ecosystem. Instead of rebuilding VIMM as a single platform, we're proposing to create an open-source streaming framework that will enable developers throughout the Hive ecosystem to build their own streaming solutions.
Our previous updates and development work have helped us identify the core components needed for a successful streaming platform on Hive. This knowledge will be instrumental in creating a robust framework that others can build upon.
This proposal represents a new direction that we believe will create lasting value for the entire Hive ecosystem.
Creating an Open Source Streaming Framework for Hive
Background
VIMM is one of the pioneering platforms on the Hive blockchain, standing alongside other early adopters like Splinterlands and Actifit. We originally started in 2018 as a streaming platform that rewards people that actively build their channel and engage with their viewers. This experience has taught us something valuable: the Hive ecosystem needs not just another streaming platform, but rather a foundation upon which many streaming platforms can be built. While VIMM served as a pioneering platform, we believe the next step in evolution is to create an open-source framework that empowers developers throughout the Hive ecosystem to create their own streaming solutions.
The Open Source Vision
Instead of rebuilding VIMM as a single platform, we propose creating a comprehensive open-source streaming framework that will enable developers to build streaming platforms on Hive. This approach:
- Empowers the Ecosystem: Any developer can create their own streaming platform on Hive
- Reduces Barriers: Lowers the technical barrier for new streaming projects
- Encourages Innovation: Enables multiple implementations with different features and focus areas
- Ensures Longevity: The code lives on even if any single platform stops operating
Deliverables
Core Framework
- Streaming server implementation
- WebRTC and HLS streaming capabilities
- Hive blockchain integration layer
- Authentication and authorization system
- Basic chat implementation
- Stream metadata management
Reference Implementation
- Example frontend application
- Basic streaming interface
- Viewer interface
- Chat implementation
- Stream discovery system
Documentation
- Technical documentation
- API references
- Implementation guides
- Deployment guides
- Best practices
Development Tools
- Testing framework
- Development environment setup tools
- Performance monitoring tools
- Debug utilities
Budget and Funding Breakdown
Daily Funding Requirement: 113 HBD/day
Monthly Budget:
- Lead Developer (Full-time): $2800/month
- Documentation & Support: $400/month
- Testing Infrastructure: $200/month
- Total: ~3400/month
Development Timeline
Phase 1 (Months 1-2)
- Core streaming server implementation
- Basic Hive integration
- Initial documentation structure
Phase 2 (Months 3-4)
- Reference frontend implementation
- API documentation
- Deployment guides
Phase 3 (Months 5-6)
- Testing framework
- Development tools
- Community contribution guidelines
- Complete documentation
Path to Ecosystem Growth
Community Engagement
- Regular development updates
- Open source contribution guidelines
- Community feedback sessions
- Developer workshops
Support for Implementers
- Technical support channels
- Implementation showcases
- Best practices guides
- Performance optimization guides
Why This Approach?
- Ecosystem Value: Instead of creating one platform, we're enabling many
- Sustainability: Lower ongoing costs with higher potential impact
- Innovation: Enables multiple teams to innovate in different directions
- Risk Reduction: No single point of failure for the ecosystem
- Community Empowerment: Gives power back to the community to create their own solutions
Long-term Benefits
- For Developers: Easy entry into streaming on Hive
- For Users: More platform choices
- For Hive: Increased development activity
- For Content Creators: Multiple potential platforms to stream on
- For Investors: Lower risk, higher potential return through ecosystem growth
Commitment to Open Source
All code developed under this proposal will be released under the MIT license, ensuring maximum flexibility for future developers while maintaining attribution. The repository will be publicly available on GitHub, with comprehensive documentation and regular updates.
The business model leaves out the role of the consumer and inherent consumer perks. It talks about creating products (several instances of content), paying for those products with or without an audience. That money goes out the door or stays in the wallet, until it goes out the door.
It tells creators to pay in order to get paid back. Voting power is limited supply, the discount is decreased to the point of being nonexistent when VIMM upvotes become smaller across the spread as more premium members pay up. Both 50% and 100% can equal pennies in return, but that only happens when this model becomes as successful as it possibly can, removing perks in the process and making it less appealing.
A creator paying HBD in order to receive rewards is just money going in circles, or the creator brings new money in. Creators: Small group. Consumers: Large group.
It tells creators to pay a cut in order to receive a cut. In order to recoup system wide losses that appear to be personal gains, the streamer must attract actual paying supporters. People actually interested in their work. Those people exist, but not locally with accounts and HP. They're still outside and need to be called in.
Example: I have ten votes worth $1 each. I can't watch ten streams in a day. I am only one consumer exposed to ads. If I'm streaming, there's a strong chance I'm unavailable and don't have time to watch streams, support creators, or be exposed to ads. Would most likely spread my voting power across those watching the stream (if possible(make it possible in stream chat/comment section/whatever if not currently possible)), encouraging more to show up consistently. Giveaways are a common occurrence in streaming so its nothing unusual, as I strengthen my own support base for the future. This works well in practice, I know from experience, and I think it would boost interest in watching streams, plus be an incentive for creators to hold.
Several with smaller votes and no desire to create. Hopefully they are included in your onboarding attempts since they are more important than anyone else when it comes to "long-term active users for Hive." Without them, streamers will stick to Twitch. The only way to move the audience here is to give them a better deal.
So I'm seeing a lot of money going out the door to pay for all this, but no money coming in the door until consumers realize they no longer need to throw their money away and can support streamers (as they do elsewhere to the tune of hundreds of millions, annually), by placing that money directly into their own wallets, and then "tipping" with upvotes, however small or large, since it all adds up, and pays all parties involved. Now you're going from self-sufficiency into profit territory. You've also created a massive community of HP holders able to support something like this DHF proposal, and majority just came for the show.
VIMM, you have a good chance of pulling that off. Streamers need to know support for their content on Hive exists outside of the bubble as well. The content is in high demand and the people outside Hive have grown accustomed to supporting it with their own money. I'm not against anything here. My main concern is paying for another app that only caters to people wanting to post into the void with the hopes of receiving easy rewards rather than an audience. Without people actually interested in the content and supporting it, even your revenue sharing won't amount to much. Lack of local support is not a sign people aren't interested in this.
As promised:
You’ve highlighted some important issues, particularly regarding consumer engagement potentially being insufficient to sustain long-term growth. The subscription model was primarily designed to cover server fees, which had been our biggest challenge in the past. However, expecting those who pay for the subscription to cover all VIMM's streamers isn’t entirely fair. It might be smarter to consider placing our streaming service behind a subscription model, while allowing free users to access other streaming platforms. An additional benefit of this approach would be discouraging DMCA violations since it wouldn't be worth it for someone to pay for a few minutes of streaming, like the Champions League final, before getting banned (which has been a problem in the past).
Coupling voting weight with the subscription model is indeed problematic and shouldn't have been included in the proposal. You can hold me accountable for that. In early feedback from others, like @shmoogleosukami, it was mentioned that this could be perceived as vote buying. You’ve also raised another valid concern—that it creates the wrong incentive for streaming. Voting should be tied to the quality of content, which, in the context of streaming, can be subjective. However, metrics like viewer numbers and chat activity could be a good starting point for evaluation.
When it comes to creating more tangible value for money, something like a season pass with a reward track would be far more suitable. We could experiment with parameters like beneficiary percentages and offer more (partner) rewards to unlock, among other things. Gamifying the "grind" encourages people to stream more and is better suited to returning value to the streamer, thanks to the secondary income we generate through things like beneficiary rewards and partner revenue.
(*) I have another gamification idea that I’m considering for https://dagamers.xyz, which could be fun. If it proves successful and the proposal goes through, it might eventually be implemented on VIMM (I’m keeping this as a teaser for now since I don’t want to make any false promises before assessing its feasibility).
We'll definitely discuss this in our next call and I see us going back to the drawing board.
Our perception of Twitch and other streaming platforms has completely shifted. Rather than viewing them as threats, we now see them as opportunities. The most effective way to onboard streamers from these platforms to VIMM and Hive is by allowing them to continue using their preferred platforms while gradually introducing them to the benefits of Hive.
I explored this idea in a theoretical article I wrote on DaGamers two weeks ago: https://peakd.com/hivedev/@foreveraverage/if-dagamers-went-full-hive-and-tried-to-onboard-new-gamers-and-streamers-into-hive. The article is somewhat simplified and should be taken with a grain of salt, as it was more of a "reflection of the moment"—especially the section on reaching out to new streamers, since VIMM will have more resources. However, it is a good starting point.
(*) When it comes to engaging viewers and those with smaller votes, it might be wise to look at other apps within the Hive ecosystem for inspiration. A common approach is to distribute custom tokens, which is certainly a possibility for us. However, we don’t want to create tokens just for the sake of it—there needs to be a clear utility or "sink" for them. Potential sinks could include jumping ahead in the reward track or applying discounts to the season pass. This approach could also incentivize viewers to watch streams, as they could earn tokens in the process. Additionally, it would give people a reason to use VIMM's front-end over other platforms.
(*) That said, we need to think this through very carefully. Another option that might be more beneficial for us is to keep this "currency" exclusive to our platform. By doing so, users would need to spend their tokens on VIMM-specific features, which would encourage them to stay within our ecosystem and focus on what the currency unlocks rather than what it's worth.
(*) Additionally, we could consider creating something like streaming teams, groups, clans, or guilds that viewers can join. This would foster a sense of community and introduce an element of competitiveness, further enhancing the user experience.
Everything marked with (*) is more theoretical and will most likely not make it into the proposal, as the proposal is set for one year—and a year passes quickly. However, these are concepts we're considering and would love to discuss further, even if their potential implementation is not set in stone.
Thank you for taking the time to not only read through the proposal but also for providing such a thorough response @nonameslefttouse, doing so takes some time and I really appreciate you doing so. You’ve raised some very valid concerns, and I'll provide you with a bit more detailed response later. But I'm already leaving it here so you know a reply is pending
We intentionally set the proposal period to over a month so we have the opportunity to make adjustments based on well-grounded feedback like yours. In the meantime, I’m "bumping" this discussion because this is exactly the kind of feedback we're looking for
Just know I see all the other layers to this as well, and I say that based on what I see here of course. It's not bad. If you got more to add I'll be glad to read it. Giving it more than a month to cure was also a very wise move.
That's ok, I'm a big fan of constructive criticism so there's no need to justify yourself
Forgot to mention, I did put my vote behind the proposal. Good luck VIMM.
You made a lot of points that helped validate my own approach to this problem, I'd love your feedback on my post at the top of my blog from last night on this very topic. Please and thank you!
When I have a moment I'll take a look.
Thank you!
Haha we were just talking about this the other day. I said taking streamers and here we are. You made a lot of great points in this and the other comments!
I remember. Funny how that works. And I guess we'll see how it goes. People want a streaming service regardless. Hopefully things work out. Plenty of potential.
@erottus Your comment contains a link that is on my blacklists ❗❗ 1 2 3
@nonameslefttouse do NOT click on the link above in their comment.
Reason: PHISHING
Link: "ja.cat*" => DO NOT CLICK ❗
_ Vote for our WITNESS to support this FREE service!
This message is self-voted to be more visible among others.
A Project like Vimm is what hive need.
100% Agree. I hope this takes off, too
Thank you for your witness vote!
Have a !BEER on me!
To Opt-Out of my witness beer program just comment STOP below
Happy to be part of this amazing project. Eager to get some feedback on this proposal!
@jongolson was a huge @vimm fan and I know he will probably support this proposal, so I'll get ahead of the game and support it too but wouldn't be surprised if he's way ahead of the pack already lol.
Thanks for the tag man, yes for sure, this gets my full support. Vimm stepped up and supported this chain when Dlive took their toys and left. The least we can do is step up and support these guys.
100% agree @jongolson - Hope all is well brother
You lads catched my VOTE, as i said i will follow to the WHATEVEREST :)
Your continued support really means a lot. Thank you for being with us for the longest time!
We be able to stream EFT on the new VIMM
TARKOV BROTHERS
I voted for it. Hopefully this turns things around!
Proposal voted
Really hope this passes, used to stream on vimm a lot, miss the platform.
You and me both, bud. I miss streaming, too.
En otras redes el éxito de varios proyectos se estima a algo sencillo, aperturarse a otros idiomas y no solo enfocándose en el ingles, a muchos usuarios les gusta usar y participar en su idioma nativo =^^=
100%! VIMM has been and will continue to empower users regardless of the language they speak. We're using Localazy to allow community members to suggest translations and provide a fully localized experience for the end user.
At Germany there is a say and it goes with: Support ist kein Mord!
It means that Support dont harm anyone, and so it goes with me in this Case <3
Hope Vimm will Rise Again and this time Shinyer than ever =)
This is interesting, thank you for the clear description of the proposal and we missed Vimm for the past few months. Always here ready to support the live streaming platform Vimm. Looking forward for a more progressive platform and lots of Hive users to join our ecosystem.
If VIMM returns I will be there every day, either streaming or consuming the content.
I will hold you to that 😉
Just a question about premium memberships. Is that per month, per year, or a one shot lifetime?
It is a monthly recurring fee. Thank you for asking, we will clarify that.
I’ll support this - I only ask that you take a step in the right direction and post some accounting stats monthly - lots of people get money from DHF but don’t let us know how it’s spent so it’s anyones guess if it’s being used for the intended purpose.
You guys should talk to @khaleelkazi about a partnership. We don't need a new frontend, but do need streaming and InLeo's Threadcasts are already created for streaming chat. It does need features you've mentioned above like interactive emoji's, tipping, etc. They also have paywalls on the roadmap and you guys can work together to get a fully competitive app put together in a much faster manner than going it separately.
Thank you for the suggestion!
We would gladly collaborate with existing front ends like InLeo to integrate streaming features. Collaboration can indeed help in creating a more robust and feature-rich platform quickly.
However, we also have an existing codebase for a live streaming-specific front end that we're planning to keep. This allows us to offer a tailored experience for our streamers and viewers, ensuring that all the unique features and functionalities we've developed over the years are retained and enhanced.
Combining our strengths with other platforms while maintaining our dedicated front end could provide the best of both worlds for the community.
Vote proposal +1
Unfortunately my vote does not go well
Thanks a lot @hive-103505 , every vote matters and helps no matter how small
Ask #inleo to do their spaces and podcasts on #vimm. 😘
I had been looking to start streaming tabletop gaming on Vimm just before it shut down so I would love this to pass!
320 supported
I thought VIMM already ceased to exist? It is very likely, that other things are in the works to replace it. I'm rather confused by this, and why now? Why not try for a proposal when you knew you weren't able to maintain things?
The first iteration of VIMM was a passion project I funded myself (with some help from colleagues like @ddrfr33k) for 6 years. It was created quickly without an elaborate plan to fill the void when DLive left. Now, with VIMM 2.0, our aim is to build a sustainable business structured for growth. This required stepping back to completely restructure the business model, ensuring I can now dedicate myself full-time to the project. I didn't want to make a proposal to maintain the old VIMM when I saw that the model wasn't sustainable. This is why we (@chiren and @foreveraverage) waited and created this new plan instead.
Vimm had already done a proposal too get back up and running which resulted in the relaunch, The idea is they'd get enough to get up and running and everything would be back to normal. It ended up not panning out that way.
The key difference with this proposal as too the prior one is to mainly move from a passion project built on spare time to being able to dedicate work to the project.
As @chiren stated in a comment above?/below? the old Vimm model wasn't working anymore, it could have worked if we had more users but being on borrow time as it is and only having spare time to do any work on the project it was pretty much impossible to get out there and market as well as develop with such a small team.
Hope that clarifies some stuff.
@chiren feel free to correct me on anything I may be misremembering.
Might be streaming my Escape from tarkov challenge on vimm so i will be praying this comes back :D
No brainer to support.
You guys stepped up when Dlive abandoned ship many years ago.
This is a project that actually could help this blockchain tremendously, I hope it gets supported!!
Thank you so much for your continued support over the years!
Your encouragement and belief in our project mean a lot to us. We stepped up when Dlive left because we believed in the potential of this community, and we still do. We're excited about the possibilities that VIMM 2.0 can bring to Hive, and with the community's support, we can make a tremendous impact together.
Thank you again for your kind words and ongoing support!
vimm to the moon.
It's sad what happened to them in 2023, but I'm glad they want to get back on their feet and move forward. I never heard of this site but will take a look at it.
That's a lot of money for servers?
https://HiveStreams.Live ( @hivestreams ) can or will be doing most of these things, but we won't be storing bulk video, that's what costs a fortune. There are places to dump people's 7 hour long minecraft lets-play videos that no one will ever watch again anyway for free already, like youtube. With HiveStreams.Live, we'll focus on providing a streaming and show chat hub, and let the folks with recordable, reusable stream content edit it post-show and put it wherever they want after that. I think that will save the platform a ton of cash otherwise needlessly spent housing old video nobody is loading up, or worse, streaming those 7 hour replays while they fall asleep to them and leave them sucking bandwidth and storage costs up for no solid reason. That is why HiveStreams.live just focuses on streaming and blockchain transaction and posting integration, not storing replays and VoDs, only short channel trailers and intro clips to market the streaming channels with, limiting users to only a few short prerecorded clips, but the throttle is wide open for live streaming and transacting on the chain for tips, channel subscriptions (like Patreon sort of) and sponsors and curation of stream posts and all that stuff.
Best of luck with your proposals and Amazon bills though, that sucks. We used to pay for Royalties for commercial music when I built and established MSP Waves 7 years ago and those costs alone were astronomical. This time around, the content creators can cover their own commercial music licensing with the modern available 3rd party song licensing services or royalty free libraries, or better still, live Hive musicians on streams! We're more "TV" that have you have to watch on time, or catch a rerun on an affiliate, than a one stop YouTube.
I think from experience, keeping those costs lower will serve you well longer term, and allow you to serve the community well, longer term as well.
Anyway, good luck with your next chapter for Vimm and stuff!
See you in the streams!
Thank you for your insights and support!
The budget requested for servers isn't as high as it may seem, considering we plan to deploy ingest nodes in multiple regions to ensure a smooth streaming experience for users worldwide. As for storing videos, we've never had an issue because our videos expire after a set period unless the user pays for premium, which more than covers the cost of hosting and delivering the videos.
Additionally, because we'll be integrating Twitch channels, videos from these channels are all hosted by Twitch and won't cost us anything. We're simply embedding replays from these channels into our front end.
I also want to clarify that we're not in debt with Amazon anymore. That situation was resolved months after it severely impacted our AWS account.
I've funded and ran VIMM myself for six years, so I'm well aware of the costs involved and how to optimize them to keep expenses low while still offering the features that streamers want, like low latency streams and replays. We've learned a lot from our past experiences and are confident in our ability to manage these costs effectively.
Best of luck with HiveStreams.Live! It's great to see more platforms supporting the streaming community.
See you in the streams!
I envision a world where we can be everyday in our cozy wozy jams jams, not just Fridays
we should bring Vimm back, Vimm was only platform where Atual True Supporters help each other grow and Vimm directly, yes i used be EX staff VIMM as Developer till got stepped down
but if vimm returns, there is 50/50 chance im might able come back as Vimm Developer again and try expand it more
but like i mention vimm was 1 of good platforms over then twitch was back then destroying alot with people wont support and etc. and vimm has chance overtake Twitch and any other streaming platform and been ongoing back Steem/Hive linked platform and it never left platform at all
so count me not wrong, vimm was No 1 Streamign platform most active platform when dlive left Hive moved its own currency chain till now they got baught by BTT tokens team.
so 100% Support Post and stop eating popcorn and get our dreams back <3
Always been most supportive to Vimm and always helped them too so i should be higher priotly read my message this stage and chrlen would agree a little this all true as vimm was most active and stayed on hive after left steem to hive when hive was fork of steem till changes <3.
You should leverage the Internet Computer (ICP) to build your service entirely on-chain so the situation with Amazon Web Services never happens again.
I'd like to see you guys succeed. I've used Vimm and I quite liked it.. Good luck :)
Is this supported now and will be funded ?
Not yet, funding is set to start at the end of september if the proposal gets enough support. We are currently sitting at round 10% of the required votes for funding.
PLEASE READ THIS
https://peakd.com/vimmtv/@chiren/vimm-closure-gratitude-future-plans#@vimm/re-vimm-closure-gratitude-future-plans-20240831t084801z
https://peakd.com/@vimm/comments
Thank you for your feedback. Currently, most of our voting power is dedicated to supporting streams within the Dagamers community. When our voting power isn’t fully utilized, we use an automated comment to prevent it from going to waste. It's important to note that we’re not cashing out these rewards. We power them up to continue growing our influence and support within the community.
We believe this approach aligns with our goal of contributing to Hive, but we're always open to feedback. If there's a better way to handle unused voting power, or if you see an issue with our current method, we’d love to hear your thoughts.
we use an automated comment to prevent it from going to wasteYou can do this by following a curation trail. Check hive.vote and how curation trails work. Let's say u follow a trail at 99% vp, so it will only trigger after mana is at 99%.
We power them up to continue growing our influenceDoesn't matter. What if blocktrades does same everyday when his mana is at 99%? He can also use the excuse that he is not cashing out.
we’d love to hear your thoughtsJust go to hive.vote
Follow any curation trail and do settings that it only follows autovote when vp is above x %.
This solves your issue of using extra vp. My problem is u earning both author and curator rewards which is self voting. If everyone does the same, the system will collapse. And if one person can do then others can use an excuse that why can't they do it too.
Thanks for the suggestion and for taking the time to explain. We'll definitely look into
finding a good curation trail to follow. If this practice could really 'collapse the system,' it might be worth rethinking how the system handles unused voting power. We appreciate your feedback and will consider how we can better use our voting power to support the community.
The updated plan sounds much better, you've got my vote.
Thank you for your support!