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RE: Clarification of my stance on vaccines, and why mandatory vaccination is definitely an issue pertinent to Anarcho-Capitalism/Voluntaryism. PLUS: OPEN INVITATION TO FORMAL DEBATE.

in #vaccines7 years ago

I had to take a measles vaccinaton before going to Europe because enough idiots decided not to vaccinate their children.

So what do I think of that? Yes I think that mandatory vaccination is a violation of body ownership in a way, but here is the thing: People have to make up their minds if they want to live within or without society. If you want to live an antisocial life, go ahead and find yourself a secluded cave or a log cabin in the woods, and then, you really don't need to vaccinate yoursel or your childeren. But if you want to live within society then it bares some responsibilities and sucrafices, and one of them is vaccination.

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You are griping that you had to take a vaccine that you didn't want,
because some other people didn't take vaccines that they didn't want?

I don't get it ...

Touché! Didn't even spot that one!

Hmmm… that's a good point because basically you are saying that if anyone who chooses to take the vaccine is fully protect themselves then why making vaccination mandatory?

Well you have to consider another factor and that is the chances of the disease to become an epidemic, which are reduced to zero if the portion of the population that is immuned to it, is above a certain threshold. So now the question becomes, can we trust that if the vaccination is not mandatory, enough people will choose to vaccinate?

Well I’m afraid that the answer is no, as the fact that there is now a measle epidemic in parts of Europe shows.

that's a good point because basically you are saying that if anyone who chooses to take the vaccine is fully protect themselves then why making vaccination mandatory?

That's not what she said. She said it's ironic you don't want to be forced to take a vaccine, but you want others to be forced to take that same vaccine, and you're complaining about being forced to take it.

She doesn't understand

Where did I say that I don't want to be forced to take the vaccine?

I had to take a measles vaccinaton before going to Europe because enough idiots decided not to vaccinate their children.

If you don't remember, maybe you have a vaccine injury

Rank fear mongering.

Good ideas don't need to be mandated.

It's ironic he makes the herd immunity argument yet he has been unvaccinated (measles) his whole life.

Not 'in a way'. In every way. Mandatory vaccination is a war crime under the Nuremberg code.

I had to take a measles vaccinaton before going to Europe because enough idiots decided not to vaccinate their children.

Each and every one of these individuals who chose not to vaccinate is an "idiot," in your view? There are many reasons why vaccinations can be dangerous for various individuals (mitochondrial predispositions, allergies, etc), which could foreseeably cause thoughtful and knowledgeable parents to forgo the procedure.

Second, why weren't you already vaccinated?

But if you want to live within society then it bares some responsibilities and sucrafices, and one of them is vaccination.

Isn't each individual's health (and the health of their children) their own responsibility, and not the responsibility of others?

I was born in 1965. The WHO measles vaccination operation only started two years earlier in 1963. The vaccination only became rutine in Israel in 1966.

So I didn't choose not to get the vaccine. Those who choose not to, well yes, I think they are idiots if they prefer to believe Tom Cruise and doubt scientific research.

There are several peer-reviewed, published scientific studies that suggest more research and testing is warranted as regards vaccine safety? What of those? And what of children with pre-existing mitcochondrial conditions which put them at higher risk for vaccine injury?

Those studies mean nothing? Those parents are also "idiots?" Why?

Nice Tom Cruise straw man, and continuing ad hominems, followed by appeal from authority. That'll convince someone to agree with you.

Scientific research is not a god or a king. It is up to each individual to interpret the data for themselves, and it is the individual's responsibility to sort out what is lie or error.

But if you want to live within society then it bares some responsibilities and sucrafices, and one of them is vaccination.

I was born in 1965. The WHO measles vaccination operation only started two years earlier in 1963. The vaccination only became rutine in Israel in 1966.

By your logic here, you are saying that you didn't choose not to get vaccinated, you simply shirked your 'social responsibilities and sacrifices' for 52 years minus 18 years to reach the age of consent = 34 years of abandonment of your 'social responsibility'. Does that make you a good arbiter of what responsibility is?

No I did not because I was not obliged, nor I had to vaccinate while living in a country where most people are vaccinated.

Do you understand the words that are coming out of your keyboard?

But if you want to live within society then it bares some responsibilities and sucrafices, and one of them is vaccination.

Social responsibility does not require obligation or it would be written into law. If it were written into law it would violate individual natural rights. It only works if it is voluntary.

I agree, but my point was that you have to make up your mind either way, altough now that I think of it, I was demanding social responsibility from the ant-social...

I was just about to ask him the same thing? Weren't you already vaccinated? And if you weren't, how come you did not get the measles from all of the walking idiots? Us unvaccinated idiots do live in society, you should be afraid..STAY IN YOUR HOUSE..You may catch the measles :) Better yet, you may run into one of us and get educated .. I love you for your opinion .. SUNSHINE247

You "had to", meaning that you were not permitted to enter the Schengen Area without proof of vaccination? Or you DECIDED to, based on information you received?

unvaccinated people who don't have the measles pose a risk to you getting measles how? They don't have it to give to you. It's the ones who get the vaccination that shed the virus.

You don't understand how vaccination works, do you?

Okay so let me explain: When a virus like the measles virus invades a person’s body, the immune system of this person begins to produce antibodies for this virus. This process takes time, and during this time the virus can spread to other people. So what the vaccine does, is to get the immune system more ready for the possibility of an attack by a specific virus (or bacteria or other infections). If a large enough portion of the population is vaccinated against a certain disease, it cannot become an epidemic. Even more so, if the virus or bacteria that causes this disease cannot spread itself fast enough, it will be completely eradicated from the area where the proportion of vaccinated people is large enough and then people like myself who are not vaccinated are safe in that region.

Unfortunately we cannot eradicate disease causing viruses and bacteria completely from the face of the earth, so we have to make sure that the population is vaccinated all the time.

If you don't understand shedding, then it is you who don't understand vaccination.

There are superior, safer, cheaper, technologies available to those who can move past the archaic vaccination cul-de-sac.

  1. you presume someone unvaccinated has the measles with no basis for that presumption
  2. you shed the virus after having the vaccination
  3. herd immunity is the bullshit they sell to get people to vaccinate. adults who were vaccinated as children don't get the boosters.

So what's in the vaccine?

potassium chloride - Until 2009, most states used a three-drug combination for lethal injections: an anesthetic (usually sodium thiopental, until pentobarbital was introduced at the end of 2010), pancuronium bromide (a paralytic agent, also called Pavulon), and potassium chloride (stops the heart and causes death). https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/state-lethal-injection

urea - a soluble weakly basic nitrogenous compound CO(NH2)2 that is the chief solid component of mammalian urine and an end product of protein decomposition, is synthesized from carbon dioxide and ammonia, and is used especially in synthesis (as of resins and plastics) and in fertilizers and animal rations https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/urea

monosodium L-glutamate (MSG)- Monosodium glutamate (MSG) is a flavor enhancer commonly added to Chinese food, canned vegetables, soups and processed meats. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified MSG as a food ingredient that's "generally recognized as safe," but its use remains controversial. For this reason, when MSG is added to food, the FDA requires that it be listed on the label. http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/monosodium-glutamate/faq-20058196

aborted human fetal cells - does this really need a definition?

bovine serum - Bovine serum is a by-product of the meat industry. Bovine blood may be taken at the time of slaughter, from adult cattle, calves, very young calves or (when cows that are slaughtered are subsequently found to be pregnant) from bovine fetuses. http://vaccines.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005206#bovine

Meat industry byproduct, hmmm. CAFO is a commonly used acronym for concentrated animal feeding operation. http://www.sierraclub.org/michigan/why-are-cafos-bad E. coli 0157:H7 - Cattle are reservoirs for Shiga toxin producing E. coli bacteria. E. coli 0157:H7 strains do not make cattle sick because their bodies do not have receptors like humans do for the toxin to attach and replicate. Meat typically becomes contaminated with E. coli during the slaughtering process http://sphweb.bumc.bu.edu/otlt/mph-modules/ph/livestockproduction/LivestockProduction6.html

These are just a few of the ingredients in the Merck vaccine. I think I'll take my chances with the measles, oh wait, I already had the measles as a child, and miracle of miracles, I SURVIVED.

@aboutyourbiz, are you a Md or an immunologist?

This is the genetic fallacy.