#payitforward
This place is awesome! More importantly, I'm having a lot of fun!
I've spent way more time here than I probably should, and I've been thinking about the current content curation system since I got here.
The original idea was that people would read the content, think about it for a bit and then upvote what they like. This would get the mod's attention who could then read it for themselves and kick it to the front page.
FYI: Whales and dolphins, are whom I am collectively calling moderators or mods.
It's a great design, @dantheman clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it. It worked awesome as long as content was produced at a rate in which there are enough moderators to curate the content.
This appears to be happening in reverse now.
Many people aren't actually reading the content until the mods approve it. They just upvote as quickly as they can after the 30 minute cooling period and hope that they got the right one. Or they build an upvote bot and base it around some simple rules that will make the task easier. Either way, content is being upvoted before it's being read and this is creating a lot of problems as the spammers are getting the upvotes they need to drown out the good stuff.
Part of the problem is that there are way too many players and not enough mods and so we have a firehose effect...
Guys, the problem isn't the mods!
There have been a lot of possible fixes suggested, but they all require changing the platform and also...
None of these are positive or sustainable.
Here is the simple truth...
You can't fight people who bend the rules, by adding more rules.
Best solution is not to fight, but to eject them from the game entirely by rewarding a task that a bot or spammer cannot do.
Insightful commentary!
Here is a solution that doesn't require ANY changes to the system at all. It properly leverages the power of minnows and allows them to get their content noticed without any whale baiting, without spamming and without gaming the system. In the meantime it gives the mods a simple and easy way to find great content. Oh and did I mention it's not something you can build a bot to do! ;)
I'm introducing a new hashtag #payitforward
When you put this in your post as the first word, you are inviting everyone to drop by, read and comment on your content. But in exchange for accepting the invite, which may involve reading something they might not necessarily be into, you're agreeing to cross link your posts.
You might possibly make a new friend in the process too!
In other words..
It's using social media to be sociable! #whodathunkit?
Caution: Doing this may cause you to expand your horizons and maybe make a new friend.
Here is an example...
Alice has a post "Our vacation at SeaWorld, a photojournal"
Bob has a post "Electrically stimulated inducement of transcendent states of consciousness in rhesus monkeys."
They both start their posts with #payitforward
Bob stumbles on Alice's post, the title of which isn't particularly compelling to Bob, but because of #payitforward he checks it out anyways and leaves a comment like...
"Wow! Alice, it sure looks like your little monkeys had fun at SeaWorld! Listen I'm not sure if this is really your bag or not, but I was wondering if you wouldn't mind dropping by my latest posting about a science experiment involving my little rhesus monkeys #payitfoward Great post, I upvoted you!"
Alice sees this and heads over to Bob's blog...
She reads Bob's fascinating study, and provides some constructive criticism.
"Bob thanks for inviting me here from my latest blog. This is a really great post, but it's basically a plain wall of text right now and a bit hard to read. Could you edit it a bit and I'll check back in a few hours to see how you're doing? Clean it up and you've got my upvote! #payitforward"
Alice then returns to her blog and leaves a response to Bob's comment as a reply...
"Wow, Bob! He really pushed the limits of science there! I have questions about the ethics but it's really interesting anyways. Anyone interested in animal testing, should really check it out. Thanks for the invite! #payitforward"
Now we have cross linked posts between 2 people who have never met eachother and may not share a single common interest, but at least they explored steemit together.
Anyone who visits either Alice or Bob will see a few things...
First off, they are both actively inviting new friends.
Secondly, they are checking out each other's content and curating one another and inviting others to do the same.
Thirdly, if you're playing this game right, Alice and Bob are both seeking out additional posters who have hung out the welcome mat and they are repeating this process as much as they can.
This allows anyone who finds any #payitforward participant to also see content that person has seen and commented on. This breaks down the barriers to entry and communication. It makes it "OK" to tell us all about your interests without doing it in a spammy way.
By doing this you are saying...
You have taken the time to read what I have to say. You commented and upvoted me which provides me with visibility. I promise you, I will return the favor.
It means that anyone who sees me, will also see you.
It won't matter if that person is a minnow, a dolphin or a whale.
We don't need a moderator to help us find great compelling content. We just need to have our friends share in a way that isn't getting drowned out by the noise on the front pages. But we have to feel free to return the favor, hence the use of a hashtag.
Not everyone wants to play the game this way.
It can look like spam if done incorrectly.
But I want to play the game this way and if you want to play my version of steemit , then here are some simple rules to follow.
Think of this as a simple game with only 5 easy rules!
#1 Start your post with #payitforward That way if you don't find me, I can at least find you and know it's ok to chime in. You're not a bot and you're interested in a lot more than just that single post. Also don't try this in posts that don't start with #payitforward if they don't have the tag then they aren't playing the game right now. Respect their wishes.
#2 To post an invite, you must post relevant commentary first. You have to be respectful. Who knows? You might actually change someone's mind on something important... Or you may meet your perfect nemesis. Either way, this version of steemit is a lot more fun. So speak your real mind, but be insightful about it please. You're not part of a hive mind or a bot, so don't act like one.
#3 Provide a quick one liner summary, of what your post is about. Don't make it clickbaity or offensive and please don't do this at all with #NSFW topics. Make it an invitation, not an obligation. The other blogger has invited you to link your blog, don't make them feel like they have to return the favor. #payitforward is used in the comment to remind them they agreed to the game. But it could still be a while before they can get around to it, especially if they're like me and spend an our or two composing something epic to say.
#4 This is a reciprocation game. I post some thoughts about your blog while in your blog and then I post some thoughts about your blog in my blog. What I say in my blog is a quick reactive summary and an attempt to categorize the most important parts. For instance, Bob's reply to Alice's comment in his blog would be along the lines of "Alice sure did a great job on those photos and her kids had a blast! If you're looking for fun family events SeaWorld looks like a fun place. You should check it out it too. #payitforward"
#5 Please for the love of god, use anchor tags for links.
Recent studies have shown that it's visually distressing seeing a link longer than 10 to 25 characters and most people won't bother to click a link longer than that regardless of content. One or two words, 4 words max. An anchor tag allows you to provide some semantic information that extends beyond the title in a way that is visually attractive. Also it's been a standard for over 20 years now people. Just use it :)
That's all the rules!
Now a side effect of this is that if a moderator happens to stumble into it, he or she will be able to find more compelling content as well as some commentary on it and won't have to swim through a sea of botspam, so we all win!
I want to thank...
@dana-edwards for her post on attention based networks, which is the source of the idea, this being a human based version of it.
@pfunk for his constructive criticism on leashcodes which reminded me that we need to have rules in place, that are opt in.
@casandrarose for putting a more positive spin on things in general and reminding me that this place is all about helping eachother create and curate the best content. Posted this idea in her blog first as a comment, she told me to go blog about it.
@jako had an idea with similar objectives a week ago but got no traction. Other than the name and end goal of highlighting quality content they're completely unrelated. But his idea is a good one too, read more here
Feel free to talk about this topic here, or discuss a bit about your blog. I'm in and out today, but I promise to check in as often as I can today and at least once a day over the course of the next 30 days to see how the #payitforward game is proceeding.
Have fun and remember to enjoy steemit!
@jeeves, show @williambanks some love and some related post, will you?
Danke!
Hi! I am a robot. Thanks for calling me! You might also be interested in these posts:
@jeeves, thanks man, beer is on me.
douitashimashite! In case you don't know Japanese, that means You're Welcome!
This is good, but would you like some help on more relevant results?
Also you should leave off the dollar amounts, they'll get dated and they just make me jealous :D
@jeeves01 Thank you!
De nada! In case you don't know Spanish, that means You're Welcome!
This is a really nice idea. Could you explain the bit about anchors? You mean the whole a tag, or something different?
Also, is it ok to update an existing post to participate? I'll do it anyway, since my visibility is low due to weird posting times. Anyhow, hope this takes off. I won't do a link here, but I am sure to participate! Still feelfree to. Check my stuff out, I post about my madcap adventures in Russia and elsewhere.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@egjoshslim/steem-whales-are-a-joke-look-at-the-steem-power-this-account-has-it-s-a-bought-and-sold-account
more influence needs to be given to the upvoting system in respect to the non whales! or a new content filter system to help content be seen by more. just idea spitting but it needs addressing!
also good post, like to see others discussing real steemit issues!!
@egjoshslim Awesome, glad you like this and welcome. I remember it was your post up there where I first got the idea. While my previous post was trending I was actively surfing, found you, invited you to cross link and we both got on an elevator together once a whale found one or the other of us.
Nice to see a familiar face!
I love this concept and I am so glad that when i made my first post last night I came across your page. You are slowly but surely introducing me to exactly what I wanted to get into on the platform itself and addressing my concerns before I voice them. You rock xox
@bohemianrkchick Welcome aboard! You are very welcome and I'm glad I could be helpful!
Your post is 6 days old and I've just checked #payitforward section. Seems it doesn't work ah? May be poeple don't understand what to do and it should be explained by simple words.. The idea is not bad, I liked it. Thanks.
@andrewawerdna Yes I'll be doing a 2.0 with simpler explanations soonish. But it's a movement. It takes time to build. We get one or two people trying it out each day though.
Hoping in steemit.chat and letting people know you're playing helps too since there are a bunch of us in there doing cross promos and playing.
Great post and wonderful idea. This would indeed help bring the community to a more personable stage and help in interaction. You are a Pioneer my friend...
@alwaysfelicia Thanks I appreciate it. Your stuff is incredible, make sure to link it here too.
Well unfortunately I found this one too late to update my posting, but @lehard also had an idea 2 weeks ago, also called payitforward
I didn't mention it earlier because when I saw it, it was using the exact same picture I am here and thus I assumed it was my post (sometimes when I'm in a hurry and searching for stuff I don't even read titles, it's something I need to work on)
The goal of this place is to give credit where credit is due and @lehard had a cool idea with the same name I thought you should check out.
#payitforward Thanks for the recognition! This is a great idea, though I don't understand all the particulars yet.
What is to prevent a bot from adding #payitforward and then grabbing some random sentence from the blog and calling it a pertinent reply? I'm just unclear how this game weeds out bots.
@casandrarose There's a couple of things. First off, it's intentionally a bit complex. The procedures involved are too complicated to make it worthwhile for a bot to attempt to play.
Secondly, if the bot is able to make insightful commentary then perhaps that's not a bad thing. However insightful commentary requires insight and almost no one has that level programming capability.
It would require understanding not only the concepts of the blog being commented in, but also the concepts of the source blog and how it might relate.
A bot isn't going to be able to do this and the reward for doing it is a bunch of minnows coming to vote, which might generate a dollar for the owner. However if it's spamming everywhere it's going to be readily visible just like it is now.
Ok so to play, first of all you start your blog post with #payitforward as the first word
Then you fill in your content and assign other tags and categories as per normal.
Submit your post then go hunting for other players. They will stand out because their content will start with #payitforward
Once you find the player, then you read their blog, say something insightful, and link back to your own blog, finishing your comment with #payitforward
When they come and say something insightful then they end with #payitforward
Finally, you respond to their comment in your blog giving a one or two sentence reaction and a little bit of content information that could help someone looking at it decide if it's something they might be interested in looking at too.
That's it and just make sure you follow the 5 rules!
Thanks for stopping by and I'm glad to have you here!
"Many people aren't actually reading the content until the mods approve it" many people wait for a post to be 10$ or more to upvote or comment nonsense in them.. I like your initiative, but since english is not mother language, there are some things that i dont understand.. the #payitforward should be used in the title or in the tag section as the first one?
@mialolita It should be the first word of the content, just like I did. Notice how the post starts with #payitforward ?
I also added it to my own tags for this post as well.
Your title and your choice of categories, labels and other tags is up to you. But if the body of the content starts with #payitforward that is what I and others will be looking for when we are on the look out for other players.
thank you
You're very welcome. Feel free to come back if you want me to look at something.
Let it be :)
:)
Great idea. While I understand the "don't hijack my post" viewpoint, that's not the way everyone thinks.
I would just caution that just because a user has #payitforward in one post, that doesn't mean it applies to all their posts.
@patrice Agreed and that's why it says that if the post doesn't have #payitforward then they aren't playing right now. But good you called it out specifically like that!
I like your idea!
@jennamarbles Great thanks! Here's hoping we make this into something huge that fixes the curation issues. I'm incredibly excited about the potential here. Feel free to use it in your next blog and come back here #payitforward with me.
I like your idea. It is harder for good posts to get in front now, becase there are so many users that don't read, just vote. Sooner or later that will be fixed by community. Good luck with your tag. I will use it in my next post.
But why to my next post when I can use it now already. You should check my post. I have 50% Off to steemit apparel if you use Steem Dollars to pay.
awesome I am going to try this
Really though, I don't know why I haven't participated until now. I think I saw this when it was first posted, I liked the concept so I upvoted it, but I was in a different mindset back then. @williambanks, man, everything you said here really resonated with me the second time I read it. It's a nice way of working around the system that's only giving opportunities to some.
I've been quietly making a concerted effort to leave heartfelt comments to posts that I find interesting. So heartfelt that a lot of my comments have the same length as a lot of short posts. Some of them acknowledge those comments, but a majority can't even be bothered to leave a response. You can see from my posts that I try to be very encouraging, but it's pretty disheartening when the comments I leave fall on deaf ears.
This initiative is pretty great and I'm kicking myself for not actively participating sooner. I leave thoughtful comments and I reply to every comment in my posts, but the reciprocity has been dismal. It seems I've been trying to ram through a brick wall when all this time there's a segment of Steemit that's openly interacting with each other. I'm diving head first into this and I hope that it would reap the promised results.
I wish I could edit my old posts to add #payitforward, but I'm leaving some links here in case anyone is interested in reading them:
I didn't want to link all of my posts, but I retroactively place everything under #payitforward . All I ever wanted is to promote interaction, and I hope this is finally the avenue where I can do that.
Thanks for providing the community with this opportunity!
It also causes everyone to rise together by lifting eachother up instead of pushing eachother down. :)
@earnest I certainly hope so. I respect you as well, but right now you are confounding me greatly.
BTW I went in the your comments in your posting, I found someone who shares common interests with me. I want to thank you for that experience. It was literally the weirdest thing to happen to me in years once I caught on. Even if you don't actually believe she's my sock puppet as I claimed you might in there. I am sincerely confused how someone can sound so much like me and share so many common interests. If it weren't me on this end, I'd think that too. So can't say as I'd blame you.
This is the best I can do in trying to read your mind. If I'm wrong then please clear the air. If I'm right, I wouldn't have any idea on how to clear that up. It's not something I've ever experienced before.
@earnest I realized you'd get around to fixing it later. Upvoting based on other criteria, because I have a place to be and won't be back until later. But still upvoted because I believe you believe in this and your content would be otherwise worthy of curation in my book.
Fix things when you have a chance. I'm skipping the normal reqs on you because I believe you'll fix them to comply, because I believe you want to see this succeed and actual quality content to be upfront and center.
Yes only upvote content you think is worthy of your upvote.
@earnest This looks good, but remember rule #1 the post needs to start with #payitforward This allows those of use looking for other players to know that this post is ok for playing the game. The point being if they stumble upon your post and they see #payitforward in the comments that that they don't go all white knight and flag it for linkspamming.
Please fix that and I'll go in and give you more feedback.
Rules are there to raise the bar so it doesn't turn into linkspam.
Despite posting here, there are a couple of problems with your post now I've had time to review it. The most important being that there is #NSFW content on there that wasn't displaying last I checked (was doing it on my phone not everything loads properly because it's cheap).
Second problem is the lack of a tag indicating that it's ok to cross post in there. Since the point is to raise the visibility of everyone, by not playing by the rules then it's not a matter of not playing fair, it's just a matter of not playing at all.
Third, is iffy. I'm not here to pass judgements on your content, just to decide if I like it or not.
What I had assumed was humor is now starting to sound rather serious and if that's the case I really wonder what you're on about in there. Talking about being a psychopath etc.
I mean there's no problem trying to call out people abusing the system for abuse. I can admire and respect that. But the content and context is confusing.
Well written, you speak well. I can't say if you speak truthfully because I'm not in a position to judge your personal truths. If what you say about yourself is real, or is as I suspect more or less in jest, then I applaud you for knowing yourself enough to know.
I'm not going to remove my upvote on your comment because I still believe in your sincerity. However I'm not going to play the game in a way that discredits it's rules. Therefore, I ask you to play by the rules or don't try to play.
If it turns out you just trolled me or something, let me be the first to say bravo, well played because I had assumed sincere intent to raise the level of discourse in a way that valued human involvement.
p.s. Just a comment rule #5 isn't strictly required but it makes for cleaner less spammy looking posts. If you're really playing, then fix that one too.
Thanks!
@earnest I'm replying here because we hit the comment depth limit.
Ok so you're calling me a coward. Or at least trying to get me to say it or something, either way all it means is that for some reason you think you know me well enough to apply it. That's on you, not me.
I do have one question for you.
Since I've gone through and addressed what I believed to be whatever you're pointing at, despite obfuscation and obtuseness.
Specifically, what about any of this makes you think that? Is it the fact that I don't remove the upvote on your comment? Or the fact that I believed in your sincerity and left it alone until we could have a discussion about the entire topic?
Fix the post if you really want to be part of this. Otherwise I can easily remove my upvote and I leave the commentary in place. You'll notice I never upvoted your content, just the fact you commented. The point of this game isn't the upvotes because any bot can do that, it's the commentary both within your blog and about your blog.
@earnest replying here because comment depth limit re: how to make the posting compliant with the rules.
#1 there is NSFW content, you need to warn please, some folks aren't into that adding a #NSFW in your comment would be useful.
#2 first word of the post should be the hashtag #payitforward because that tells the world that you are willing to play this game with them and make some new friends, like evidently sychochica
#3 Use an anchor tag for the link so it looks less spammy.
Other requirements were fulfilled because it was implicit in our earlier conversation.
Uhh as for not upvoting you because I'm a coward, actually your blogs have never been raised to the level of my attention before, which is exactly what we are doing this for. I held off on upvoting this time because you weren't playing the game by the rules and the rules are there to give us something that differentiates us from linkspammers.
I don't agree with this particular posting, but going back through a bunch of your stuff I would totally have upvoted the OODA posting, also the one where you caught @ricegum and her little scam and a whole bunch of others. Not all, but some. I applaud you for feeling free to speak your mind. Even if I don't agree with you, I upvote you anyways, because I think you are trying to have a conversation that needs to be had and you are speaking from a place that appears to be authentic.
As soon as I know you're playing, I'll upvote your posting and comment and reciprocate as long are you're in this game, because I believe you sincerely believe it and you are trying to spark a debate that needs to be had even if it means others think you are trolling.
Finally, you should know that I consider you a friend, doesn't mean I agree with you on anything in particular. Hell most of my friends and I can't even agree on where to head for lunch or what color the sky is.
Just means that I know if we were to meet in a pub, we'd be buying beers and swapping war stories.
Sorta of a PBR guy myself. Nothin like a beer that's the same going in and comin out ;)
@earnest Thanks man, I appreciate it! Put a lot more effort into this one, than most of my other blogs which are usually stream of consciousness.
Glad you dropped by and I hope you will play the #payitforward game too!
That's a great idea!
Well thanks, two of my favorite authors! I'm flattered!
@earnest I'm aware I talked to and upvoted a bot there. I like this bot, he's telling me a 6th grader could understand my post. It's a nice readability check and a useful service. Just wish I knew who his owner was so I could talk to him about implementing leashcodes.
Thank you! It looks like you haven't started blogging yet, but feel free to come back any time and play.
@earnest You show respect for me by respecting the rules of the game. A game you said you wanted to be part of. By not doing so, all you're doing is showing disrespect and that will factor into the decisions of others to follow, I guess.
I'm not here to punish or coerce. I'm here to uplift and try to make things better for everyone and I thought I found a way that was simple and enjoyable for others. If I'm wrong, then all that's lost is my efforts to try and do something better around here.
Enjoy your upvote. It was honestly given as one friend to another.
If that's what friendship means to you, well then that's on you.
Actually no, I'm kind of confused at the moment. Sorry I probably need to give this post more attention. Am I missing something?
@earnest can you please elaborate? I really am not smart enough to figure this out on my own.
Your advice is warranted and appreciated, so please feel free to assist. This is a trial run of something that I think could help a lot of people. I would love to know about suggestions that could help to make it better.
@earnest Ok so how do we proceed. This is a conversational impasse and I'm too intrigued to just drop it on the other hand I have laundry to do soon.
I'll tail this conversation on my phone as I can, but the weirdness needs to stop, it's positively creepifying and not germane to the topic of this. Somewhat harmful to the conversational value as well.
Man cheetah has been on your butt in your blog postings lately, sorry to hear that. Also thanks for uncovering @ricegum I never realized that was you. Not sure I ever thanked you.
@earnest I don't know people like you, because I don't know you. I can draw certain assumptions based on your manner of speaking. But it doesn't mean that I know anything about you. Therefore since I have your audience and attention, it makes a whole lot more sense to just ask you directly.
You could come out and say whatever it is you're trying to say, but I'm not able to divine your intent. Why is that?
We both know that without constructive dialog, this conversation becomes a pointless waste of time for both of us. I can't think of a single reason you would want to waste either my time or yours.
So what is it you seek?
What can I do to help you attain it, that you cannot already do for yourself?