Hello Steemit,
today I learned how easy it is to vote every post or comment twice.
Background
Since Hardfork 18 it is possible to delegate Steem Power (SP) to other accounts.
If you delegate SP, the receiver of the delegation can immediately start upvoting posts or comments with the delegated Steem Power.
If the owner of the Steem Power needs his coins for himself, he can withdraw the delegation. In order to prevent double voting, he can use the Steem Power after a blocking period of 7 days.
Sounds quite good, doesn't it?
Idea of an double vote attack
This morning a german fellow asked me what happens if he votes on a post and delegates his Steem Power to another account after the vote. Is the other account able to vote the same post with the same Steem Power?
TL;DR: The other account can also vote the same post/comment.
The Test Setup
I wanted to test the behaviour with real accounts. My test strategy was:
- Vote a lot of posts and comments with account 1, until the Voting Power of account 1 is near to zero
- Delegate all SP from account 1 to account 2
- Vote the same posts and comments with account 2, until the Voting Power of account 2 is near to zero
- Withdraw the delegation
- Wait 7 days, Voting Power of both accounts will recover
- go back to step 1
The Test Result
I used 2 alt accounts for the test. First I voted a lot of posts and comments in deutsch with the @steem-munich account.
@steem-munich holds around 450 SP, at the start of the test the voting power was around 80%, so a single 100% vote was worth around 6 cent.
Than I delegated around 400 SP to account #2, @steem.map ...
... and startet voting the same posts and comments.
I was able to double the rewards from 6 Cent to 12 Cent for every post / comment voted by both accounts.
Finally I withdrawed the SP delegation.
Ok, double voting with the same Steem Power is possible, but it is also profitable? Keep in mind that both accounts now are not able to vote the next 7 days with the delegated SP. Meantime other accounts can vote 10 times with 100% per day.
Let's do the math ...
Economy Calculation
Let's compare the rewards of selfvoters:
- Selfvoter A votes himself 10 times a day with 100%, and nothing else. By voting not more than 10 times a day the voting power recovers to 100% overnight.
- Selfvoter B votes himself with 2 accounts. He votes multiple of his own posts and comments, until his voting power is near to zero. Than he delegates his sp to the second account and votes the same stuff again.
Selfvoter A
Let's assume that Selfvoter A's 100% Vote at 100% Voting Power is worth $ 1.00 USD. With each 100% vote, his voting power is reduced by 2%.
| Vote Number | Voting Power | Post Reward |
|---|---|---|
| #1 | 100.00% | $1.00 |
| #2 | 98.00% | $0.98 |
| #3 | 96.04% | $0.96 |
| #4 | 94.12% | $0.94 |
| #5 | 92.24% | $0.92 |
| #6 | 90.39% | $0.90 |
| #7 | 88.58% | $0.89 |
| #8 | 86.81% | $0.87 |
| #9 | 85.08% | $0.85 |
| #10 | 83.37% | $0.83 |
| Summary | $9.15 per day |
According to my calculation 10 Votes with 100% will result in $9.15 total post rewards per day or $64.02 per week.
Update July 21th
@halo detected an error in this calculation. If the Selfvoter A scedules all his 10 votes with a period of 2.4 hours, he should be able to have 100% Voting Power in the moment of the vote. So the reward for each vote should be $1.00, or $10.00 per day or $70.00 per week.
Selfvoter B
Let's assume that Selfvoter B's 100% Vote at 100% Voting Power is also worth $ 1.00 USD. With each 100% vote, his voting power is reduced by 2%. Instead of 10 Votes he will vote hundreds of his own comments or posts, until the post rewards is less then 2 Cent (this happens after Vote #208).
| Vote Number | Voting Power | Post Reward | Total Post Rewards |
|---|---|---|---|
| #1 | 100% | $1.00 | $1.00 |
| #2 | 98.00% | $0.98 | $1.98 |
| #3 | 96.04% | $0.96 | $2.94 |
| #4 | 94.12% | $0.94 | $3.88 |
| #5 | 92.24% | $0.92 | $4.80 |
| #6 | 90.39% | $0.90 | $5.71 |
| #7 | 88.58% | $0.89 | $6.59 |
| #8 | 86.81% | $0.87 | $7.46 |
| #9 | 85.08% | $0.85 | $8.31 |
| #10 | 83.37% | $0.83 | $9.15 |
| #11 | 81.71% | $0.82 | $9.96 |
| #12 | 80.07% | $0.80 | $10.76 |
| #13 | 78.47% | $0.78 | $11.55 |
| #14 | 76.90% | $0.77 | $12.32 |
| #15 | 75.36% | $0.75 | $13.07 |
| #16 | 73.86% | $0.74 | $13.81 |
| #17 | 72.38% | $0.72 | $14.53 |
| #18 | 70.93% | $0.71 | $15.24 |
| #19 | 69.51% | $0.70 | $15.94 |
| #20 | 68.12% | $0.68 | $16.62 |
| #21 | 66.76% | $0.67 | $17.29 |
| #22 | 65.43% | $0.65 | $17.94 |
| #23 | 64.12% | $0.64 | $18.58 |
| #24 | 62.83% | $0.63 | $19.21 |
| #25 | 61.58% | $0.62 | $19.83 |
| #26 | 60.35% | $0.60 | $20.43 |
| #27 | 59.14% | $0.59 | $21.02 |
| #28 | 57.96% | $0.58 | $21.60 |
| #29 | 56.80% | $0.57 | $22.17 |
| #30 | 55.66% | $0.56 | $22.73 |
| #31 | 54.55% | $0.55 | $23.27 |
| #32 | 53.46% | $0.53 | $23.81 |
| #33 | 52.39% | $0.52 | $24.33 |
| #34 | 51.34% | $0.51 | $24.84 |
| #35 | 50.31% | $0.50 | $25.35 |
| #36 | 49.31% | $0.49 | $25.84 |
| #37 | 48.32% | $0.48 | $26.32 |
| #38 | 47.35% | $0.47 | $26.80 |
| #39 | 46.41% | $0.46 | $27.26 |
| #40 | 45.48% | $0.45 | $27.71 |
| #41 | 44.57% | $0.45 | $28.16 |
| #42 | 43.68% | $0.44 | $28.60 |
| #43 | 42.81% | $0.43 | $29.03 |
| #44 | 41.95% | $0.42 | $29.45 |
| #45 | 41.11% | $0.41 | $29.86 |
| #46 | 40.29% | $0.40 | $30.26 |
| #47 | 39.48% | $0.39 | $30.65 |
| #48 | 38.69% | $0.39 | $31.04 |
| #49 | 37.92% | $0.38 | $31.42 |
| #50 | 37.16% | $0.37 | $31.79 |
| #51 | 36.42% | $0.36 | $32.16 |
| #52 | 35.69% | $0.36 | $32.51 |
| #53 | 34.97% | $0.35 | $32.86 |
| #54 | 34.28% | $0.34 | $33.21 |
| #55 | 33.59% | $0.34 | $33.54 |
| #56 | 32.92% | $0.33 | $33.87 |
| #57 | 32.26% | $0.32 | $34.19 |
| #58 | 31.61% | $0.32 | $34.51 |
| #59 | 30.98% | $0.31 | $34.82 |
| #60 | 30.36% | $0.30 | $35.12 |
| #61 | 29.76% | $0.30 | $35.42 |
| #62 | 29.16% | $0.29 | $35.71 |
| #63 | 28.58% | $0.29 | $36.00 |
| #64 | 28.01% | $0.28 | $36.28 |
| #65 | 27.45% | $0.27 | $36.55 |
| #66 | 26.90% | $0.27 | $36.82 |
| #67 | 26.36% | $0.26 | $37.08 |
| #68 | 25.83% | $0.26 | $37.34 |
| #69 | 25.31% | $0.25 | $37.60 |
| #70 | 24.81% | $0.25 | $37.84 |
| #71 | 24.31% | $0.24 | $38.09 |
| #72 | 23.83% | $0.24 | $38.33 |
| #73 | 23.35% | $0.23 | $38.56 |
| #74 | 22.88% | $0.23 | $38.79 |
| #75 | 22.42% | $0.22 | $39.01 |
| #76 | 21.98% | $0.22 | $39.23 |
| #77 | 21.54% | $0.22 | $39.45 |
| #78 | 21.11% | $0.21 | $39.66 |
| #79 | 20.68% | $0.21 | $39.86 |
| #80 | 20.27% | $0.20 | $40.07 |
| #81 | 19.86% | $0.20 | $40.27 |
| #82 | 19.47% | $0.19 | $40.46 |
| #83 | 19.08% | $0.19 | $40.65 |
| #84 | 18.70% | $0.19 | $40.84 |
| #85 | 18.32% | $0.18 | $41.02 |
| #86 | 17.96% | $0.18 | $41.20 |
| #87 | 17.60% | $0.18 | $41.38 |
| #88 | 17.25% | $0.17 | $41.55 |
| #89 | 16.90% | $0.17 | $41.72 |
| #90 | 16.56% | $0.17 | $41.88 |
| #91 | 16.23% | $0.16 | $42.05 |
| #92 | 15.91% | $0.16 | $42.21 |
| #93 | 15.59% | $0.16 | $42.36 |
| #94 | 15.28% | $0.15 | $42.51 |
| #95 | 14.97% | $0.15 | $42.66 |
| #96 | 14.67% | $0.15 | $42.81 |
| #97 | 14.38% | $0.14 | $42.95 |
| #98 | 14.09% | $0.14 | $43.10 |
| #99 | 13.81% | $0.14 | $43.23 |
| #100 | 13.53% | $0.14 | $43.37 |
| #101 | 13.26% | $0.13 | $43.50 |
| #102 | 13.00% | $0.13 | $43.63 |
| #103 | 12.74% | $0.13 | $43.76 |
| #104 | 12.48% | $0.12 | $43.88 |
| #105 | 12.23% | $0.12 | $44.01 |
| #106 | 11.99% | $0.12 | $44.13 |
| #107 | 11.75% | $0.12 | $44.24 |
| #108 | 11.51% | $0.12 | $44.36 |
| #109 | 11.28% | $0.11 | $44.47 |
| #110 | 11.06% | $0.11 | $44.58 |
| #111 | 10.84% | $0.11 | $44.69 |
| #112 | 10.62% | $0.11 | $44.80 |
| #113 | 10.41% | $0.10 | $44.90 |
| #114 | 10.20% | $0.10 | $45.00 |
| #115 | 9.99% | $0.10 | $45.10 |
| #116 | 9.79% | $0.10 | $45.20 |
| #117 | 9.60% | $0.10 | $45.30 |
| #118 | 9.41% | $0.09 | $45.39 |
| #119 | 9.22% | $0.09 | $45.48 |
| #120 | 9.03% | $0.09 | $45.57 |
| #121 | 8.85% | $0.09 | $45.66 |
| #122 | 8.68% | $0.09 | $45.75 |
| #123 | 8.50% | $0.09 | $45.83 |
| #124 | 8.33% | $0.08 | $45.92 |
| #125 | 8.17% | $0.08 | $46.00 |
| #126 | 8.00% | $0.08 | $46.08 |
| #127 | 7.84% | $0.08 | $46.16 |
| #128 | 7.69% | $0.08 | $46.23 |
| #129 | 7.53% | $0.08 | $46.31 |
| #130 | 7.38% | $0.07 | $46.38 |
| #131 | 7.23% | $0.07 | $46.46 |
| #132 | 7.09% | $0.07 | $46.53 |
| #133 | 6.95% | $0.07 | $46.60 |
| #134 | 6.81% | $0.07 | $46.66 |
| #135 | 6.67% | $0.07 | $46.73 |
| #136 | 6.54% | $0.07 | $46.80 |
| #137 | 6.41% | $0.06 | $46.86 |
| #138 | 6.28% | $0.06 | $46.92 |
| #139 | 6.15% | $0.06 | $46.98 |
| #140 | 6.03% | $0.06 | $47.04 |
| #141 | 5.91% | $0.06 | $47.10 |
| #142 | 5.79% | $0.06 | $47.16 |
| #143 | 5.68% | $0.06 | $47.22 |
| #144 | 5.56% | $0.06 | $47.27 |
| #145 | 5.45% | $0.05 | $47.33 |
| #146 | 5.34% | $0.05 | $47.38 |
| #147 | 5.24% | $0.05 | $47.43 |
| #148 | 5.13% | $0.05 | $47.49 |
| #149 | 5.03% | $0.05 | $47.54 |
| #150 | 4.93% | $0.05 | $47.59 |
| #151 | 4.83% | $0.05 | $47.63 |
| #152 | 4.73% | $0.05 | $47.68 |
| #153 | 4.64% | $0.05 | $47.73 |
| #154 | 4.55% | $0.05 | $47.77 |
| #155 | 4.45% | $0.04 | $47.82 |
| #156 | 4.37% | $0.04 | $47.86 |
| #157 | 4.28% | $0.04 | $47.90 |
| #158 | 4.19% | $0.04 | $47.95 |
| #159 | 4.11% | $0.04 | $47.99 |
| #160 | 4.03% | $0.04 | $48.03 |
| #161 | 3.95% | $0.04 | $48.07 |
| #162 | 3.87% | $0.04 | $48.11 |
| #163 | 3.79% | $0.04 | $48.14 |
| #164 | 3.71% | $0.04 | $48.18 |
| #165 | 3.64% | $0.04 | $48.22 |
| #166 | 3.57% | $0.04 | $48.25 |
| #167 | 3.50% | $0.03 | $48.29 |
| #168 | 3.43% | $0.03 | $48.32 |
| #169 | 3.36% | $0.03 | $48.35 |
| #170 | 3.29% | $0.03 | $48.39 |
| #171 | 3.22% | $0.03 | $48.42 |
| #172 | 3.16% | $0.03 | $48.45 |
| #173 | 3.10% | $0.03 | $48.48 |
| #174 | 3.03% | $0.03 | $48.51 |
| #175 | 2.97% | $0.03 | $48.54 |
| #176 | 2.91% | $0.03 | $48.57 |
| #177 | 2.86% | $0.03 | $48.60 |
| #178 | 2.80% | $0.03 | $48.63 |
| #179 | 2.74% | $0.03 | $48.66 |
| #180 | 2.69% | $0.03 | $48.68 |
| #181 | 2.63% | $0.03 | $48.71 |
| #182 | 2.58% | $0.03 | $48.73 |
| #183 | 2.53% | $0.03 | $48.76 |
| #184 | 2.48% | $0.02 | $48.79 |
| #185 | 2.43% | $0.02 | $48.81 |
| #186 | 2.38% | $0.02 | $48.83 |
| #187 | 2.33% | $0.02 | $48.86 |
| #188 | 2.29% | $0.02 | $48.88 |
| #189 | 2.24% | $0.02 | $48.90 |
| #190 | 2.20% | $0.02 | $48.92 |
| #191 | 2.15% | $0.02 | $48.95 |
| #192 | 2.11% | $0.02 | $48.97 |
| #193 | 2.07% | $0.02 | $48.99 |
| #194 | 2.03% | $0.02 | $49.01 |
| #195 | 1.99% | $0.02 | $49.03 |
| #196 | 1.95% | $0.02 | $49.05 |
| #197 | 1.91% | $0.02 | $49.07 |
| #198 | 1.87% | $0.02 | $49.08 |
| #199 | 1.83% | $0.02 | $49.10 |
| #200 | 1.79% | $0.02 | $49.12 |
| #201 | 1.76% | $0.02 | $49.14 |
| #202 | 1.72% | $0.02 | $49.16 |
| #203 | 1.69% | $0.02 | $49.17 |
| #204 | 1.66% | $0.02 | $49.19 |
| #205 | 1.62% | $0.02 | $49.21 |
| #206 | 1.59% | $0.02 | $49.22 |
| #207 | 1.56% | $0.02 | $49.24 |
| #208 | 1.53% | $0.02 | $49.25 |
| #209 | 1.50% | $0.01 | $49.27 |
According to my calculation 208 Votes with 100% will result in $49.25 total post rewards for one account per week, or $ 98.50 by using 2 accounts and Steem Power delegation.
If he does the voting and SP delegation automatically with a bot, the whole procedure takes in best case 418 blocks = 1254 seconds = around 21 minutes. If he does it manually, he should be able to do it in 2 hours.
Conclusion
Let's assume that Selfvoter B needs 2.4 hours for the complete voting, so he can repeat this procedure with a period of 7 days and 2.4 hours. In the same timeframe Selfvoter A can vote 71 times (10 votes per day, 70 votes per week and an additionally vote after the 2.4 hours that Selfvoter B needs for his 416 votes.
| User | Total Post Rewards per 7 days and 2.4 hours | Performance |
|---|---|---|
| Selfvoter A | $ 71.00 | 100.00% |
| Selfvoter B | $ 98.50 | 138.73% |
Using 2 accounts and Steem Power Delegation leads to a profit increase of more than 38%!
How can it be fixed
Another blocking period of 7 days at the start of the Steem Power Delegation would fix this attack vector. But I do not recommend this, because if I want to delegate SteemPower to other users like I've done it 3 weeks ago multiple times, I want that the delegation is active immediately and don't want to wait for 7 days.
Instead I recommend an increase of the blocking period from 7 to 10 days when a Steem Power delegation is withdrawn. Why 10 days? If we use my example from above, the Selfvoter A is able to earn $100.00 post rewards within 10 days:
| Day | Post Rewards per Day | Total Post Rewards |
|---|---|---|
| #1 | $10.00 | $10.00 |
| #2 | $10.00 | $20.00 |
| #3 | $10.00 | $30.00 |
| #4 | $10.00 | $40.00 |
| #5 | $10.00 | $50.00 |
| #6 | $10.00 | $60.00 |
| #7 | $10.00 | $70.00 |
| #8 | $10.00 | $80.00 |
| #9 | $10.00 | $90.00 |
| #10 | $10.00 | $100.00 |
If Selfvoter B has to wait 10 days until he can reuse the delegated and withdrawn Steem Power, he has no longer an advantage.
Not sure I agree with with all your math so I will try to explain, correct me if I am wrong but the guy using two accounts makes more money in your scenario, but what about the next week after he gets his delegated SP back he will not be making anything and the other guy using only one account will make another 64.02.
So to me it looks like using just one account would be more profitable bringing in $128.10 and you could make even more if you just let your voting power go back to 100% before each vote , taking you to $140.00 VS $98.50 the guy with two accounts is going to make. So using one account would make 42.13% more.
Hi @halo, you are right in the case that Selfvoter A should be able to vote 10 times a day with 100% voting power if he exactly scedules the votes with a period of 2.4 hours. So his earnings are $70.00 per week.
For Selfvoter B I implicitly assumed (it is not well formulated in the post), that he votes all of his 208 comments as fast as possible, in best case using a bot. In this case he needs:
Means in best case he needs 418 blocks = 1254 seconds = around 21 minutes to vote all of his stuff. And than he needs to wait exactly 7 days and he can repeat the same procedure.
If he does it manually, I assume it takes not more than 2 hours to vote all of his stuff. But to keep it simple, let's assume he needs exactly 2.4 hours for the procedure. Means that selfvoter A is able to do one vote more than in my calculation above.
So Selfvote B should be able to get $98.50 in 7 days and 2.4 hours, and Selfvoter A should be able to get $71.00 in the same timeframe. This is an outperformance of around 38.73%.
@twinner Thank you for replying , at first I thought that Selfvoter B took a full week to make his votes but I see now it is all in one day , 21 min to be exact. So yes I agree Selfvoter B could make 38.73 % more. This would be very hard to do without a bot.
Wrote an article discussing solutions and raised the issue on Github. Comment link to Github issue is at the end of this post https://steemit.com/steemit/@cyberspace/proposed-steemit-fix-for-steem-power-delegation-self-voting-loophole
Sure he will. The process is repeatable weekly. After 7 days, both accounts will have recovered their voting power.
I don't know how it all works for sure. I was going off what @twinner wrote and according to what he wrote it can not be repeated weekly. Looks like by weekly to me.
Right, it's just one 7 day period, though, not two. @twinner has already accounted for that with their math.
I understand his scenario is 1 week but if you take the math out two weeks you lost money by doing it because the delegated SP will not be useable by either account for that second week, but using one account you would still get your 10 votes a day @ 100%.
Why do you think you can't use the SP for the second week? Here's the timeline: Day 1 vote with account a, delegate to account b, vote with account b, remove delegation.
Days 2-7 wait.
Day 8 vote with account a, delegate to account b, vote with account b, remove delegation.
Days 8-14 wait
Repeat ad infinitum.
Because it is right there in @twinners post, but I think I understand what was confusing me , I was thinking the trades were taking a whole week and they don't he is doing it all in one day. Thank you @improv
Halo, I love you..your logic makes more sense..at least to me.
Probably not an issue for smaller accounts, but I could definitely see large accounts abusing this loophole.
Same thought after reading the post. Wonder at what rate this is happening.
Interesting find. I didn't follow the math 100%. Does it account for the user who did the delegation not being able to vote with their SP for 7 days? Since every day voting power recharges 20%, that is a lot of voting that they are missing out on while they wait for their SP to be returned.
His idea was that the first account would exhaust 100% of its power before delegating it.
Extending the return time to 11 days solves the financial issue but could undermine usage of delegation. Who wants to tie up their power so long? Even 7 days is a lot.
My suggestions for a code fix is that:
I like #3 the best as the most flexible, fair and logical solution. It might involve assigning a depletion /recharge state or clock to each unit/block/contract of power that is independent of lender/borrower. IRL if you loan me a depleted battery I need to recharge it to use it. Makes sense to me.
Wrote an article analyzing the various solutions here https://steemit.com/steemit/@cyberspace/proposed-steemit-fix-for-steem-power-delegation-self-voting-loophole
Thanks
Wrote an article with solutions here. Hope it helps.
You bet. I updated my last comment.
Yes, I account this that User B is not able to vote for 7 days after withdrawing the SP delegation.
This should be fixed asap. Hard to imagine that this kind of double voting is not already happening at considerable scale.
Didn't we speak about this yesterday (related) :-)?
Related as far as we had a chat about SP Delegation. Yet we didn´t touch this issue here.
Yep and what happens with the delegation and curation rewards when power is back with the delegating party - not exactly yeah i know.
agree totally!
It is, but the one who do it are so low on Steem Power and post so low quality stuff that is not even noticed by the chain. It will be a problem if they see that they can deposit, but usually who does this does not deposit.
Article here has link to the issue I raised on Github https://steemit.com/steemit/@cyberspace/proposed-steemit-fix-for-steem-power-delegation-self-voting-loophole
Good job! Did you file a github issue yet?
Thank you @pharesim. I have no glue how github works.
How do you delegate your steempower to another account what is the process
check out @timcliff's tutorial here
I used Vessel by @jesta.
Great effort for finding this out. And especially pointing it out! Hope this will be fixed in the near future.
Cheers,
Ernst
OMG, this is for a minnow like me a discussion between big whales.
OMG, you crack me up! Always good to get a good laugh. They found a loophole that can be exploited. Now that they know, they can stop the bleeding.
It defies the laws of physics -- big whales swim through tiny loopholes while we minnows are smacking our lips at the glass on the aquarium tank. Thankfully, they seem to do it in a way that benefits us too :-)
I'm sure not telling you what to do,
but it's still using two accounts to Game the steemit ecosystem,
I'm sure everyone but me has multiple accounts. Whatever.
I just don't roll that way,
I'm here to have a channel to post my interests, not to game the system.
I'm probably the Stupid one, but cheating people in any form is not the way I roll,
And in another 20 years or so, I'm pretty sure you will feel the same way.
No, you are not hurting any person,
but what effect on the ecosystem will this stunt have when 5,000 people are doing it ?
No, Not for me.
I this is a good way to get your reputation flagged to dust.
well it's very possible as I said in my intro this place is not for me.
Seems a lot of folks have missunderstood the headline. This is no call to do it.
The phrase "A tutorial for the advanced Selfvoter" was sarcasm.
There are currently a lot of selfvoters with 100k+ SP in the wallet voting shameless all off their comments with 100%, and nothing else.
Hey @twinner,
great calculation & experiment you've done there. But anyways I think it's not necessary to increase the downtime at all. I mean, you gotta have more than 400 Posts or comments active and as well to vote on all of them. So someone taking this struggle might have really earned those few extra dollars 😉
It's easy to do it automatically by a bot.
My brother @twinner has wronged me
Please don't spam in #deutsch with pictures where you have no licenses for.
it looks very attractive. But i am still unable to do this. help to get this.
I expect someone will have done this. I don't mind minnows self-voting, unless they do it on spam, but larger players are harming Steemit with their greed. I did self-vote when it made me cents, but I'm trying to help others now. The system should prevent known methods of abuse.
Thanks for doing the research
Wanna see a collection of selfvoters? Just join the chat channel https://steemit.chat/channel/selfvoteabuse
Very good post and well explained @twinner. you always amazes me with your talent. i mentioned you on my latest post due to your constructive advise. thanks
Oh, I need to check out your last post :-)
Thanks for checking my latest post and sending in your support. Wish you a great weekend.
Thanks a lot @twinner. Du bist sehr gut...
Should'nt be hard to code a bot for this... I hope they are going to fix this since, at least in my eyes, this is not what steemit is about.. I prefer an active community.
Greetings
Malick.
Yes, programming a bot doing it will take some hours.
What kind of fuckery is this? How about we just have real votes for good content? Just saying, things like this get me worried about the future of this platform. People are money hungry and it's going to kill it. I hope they fix this. 😑
Want to learn about selfvoters? Just join our chat channel https://steemit.chat/channel/selfvoteabuse
This sounds like cheating to me.... :/
You will not believe how many big boys executing selfvoting. Just join https://steemit.chat/channel/selfvoteabuse to learn more.
This is great idea
Thanks for sharing
Keep the good work
Is this minnowpond worth it? As I see it is always 0
That's a great idea. I think it needs to be exploited while it is time. Thanks for this tricks and statistics (I love statistics)
Nah son this is wack. This is why we can't have anything good. People always trying to cheat.
lol... well, just look who you're talking to... :P
good find man
Thank you @kingscrown
Great post sir and nice idea i read the whole scenario and understand its effectiveness i should implement it on accounts. i appreciate your effort.
A lot of effort for a small return for most but I'm sure many will now try after reading your post. Thanks for highlighting this issue and hopefully steemit will do something about it. 👍😊
Thank you for the calculation! But what if someone has so much SP that his vote is worth about 40 or 50$? Then it would be even more profitable! That's why I agree that 11 or even 12 days blocking period would be enough.
Steem hack. Good one :)
I was doing the same calculation the other day, but it is not worth it if you are a minnow. Also there is a big abuse by a lot of new accounts who delegate or transfer their newly SP to a single account. But the amount of effort put in, does not make any sense if you are under 5000SP with all your accounts.
I agree with you. You have to have a lot of SP for this to be profitable.
I also would expect, that this is done on a larger scale!
It is done on a larger scale, but it does not make any sense if you are very low, just time waste.
I really appreciate your effort! THIS IS ENLIGHTENING and I guess also valuable knowledge to improve and balance steemit!
I hope you geht enough upvotes to spread this News far enough!
Best,
mountain.phil28
Thank you very much @mountain.phil28
OMG OMG OMG - glad you found out what can be done!
I still can not believe it. Still hope that there is a point I completely missed.
Wow this is a seriously big flaw.
I hope it can get fixed sometime soon but I don't know how they would patch it.
Solution was in the article already given. You can read it there.
Hopefully that will get fixed soon. Thanks for sharing.
Resteemed :-)
Thank you very much @lichtblick.
I was wondering if this would work myself actually!
thanks for doing the proof and calculations about it, and I agree something needs to be done to balance the profits out of the equasion here. Your proposal of a longer blocking period makes sense to me!
i didn't even know there was a blocking period actually! Just to make sure I understood correctly:
When I reset a delegation to a fellow steemian, it currently takes seven days before the previously delegated SP are counted towards my voting power again?!
I'll have to consider this with my 100%-fair-contest-reward approach for the #GooglyPrize in a way... because if that is how this works, then I'll slowly drain my own voting power... hmmm
Yes, if you withdraw the delegation, the SP is not available for you for 7 days.
ok, thanks for clarifying... now how do i deal with that... puts thinking cap on
Twinner. This is a huge discovery you made. I would never even think of the scenario. Dev's must fight this and protect our interests. Thanks for pointing this out. Re-steemed of course.
Thank you very much @skapaneas.
Wow, intense study and tons of data for this post. I hope that there are not too many that exploit what you have found. This was a lot of work and I appreciate your efforts, thanks!
Thank you very much @gringalicious.
Thanks for sharing this. If people weren't already doing this, I'm sure they're doing this now. Just think of how easily this could be exploited by a whale or dolphin to some significant profit. Are the witness's aware of this? @aggroed
As top 100 investor I'm (same applies to a lot of other top investors) not invited in this super inofficial slack channel for devs and witnesses run by @ned so I have no other option as to go public and fuck this shit up here.
@twinner Woooowww excelente explicación, aclara muchas dudas y apuesta a la mejora de nuestras ganancias, ahora solo me resta ver como se realiza esto jejeje Gracias!!! Resteem.
Te invito a que visite mi post y dejes tu voto!
https://steemit.com/spanish/@jhelbich/entrevista-con-shaun-chon-desarrollador-principal-en-bitcoin-com-spanish
https://steemit.com/@jhelbich
Thank you for resteeming.
I think Ned should give you an award for pointing this out.
I don't want an award, I want to see a new Steemit.com UI.
How can one create an alt account? It requires a phone number. I use a fake name to post about Cannabis but would like a personal account too
I think you can use the same phone number for two account. Many people have personal and business accounts.
Everyone can create multiple accounts with steemconnect.
https://steemit.com/news/@timcliff/new-tool-from-busy-org-create-new-steem-blockchain-accounts-with-steemconnect
Awesome research. Very clear even on first read.
Thank you very much @buzzbeergeek
SAY NO TO SELF VOTING!
I'm continually amazed at how people can figure out schemes - as exploits or to prevent them. When payouts are small, nobody really minds. But when payouts get big, they are not good for the long-term health of Steemit - and our investments in it. I appreciate your work.
SP delegation has raised a bunch of issues. A recent post about leasing delegation for 49% APR really caught my eye, too. There's so many ways to skim and scam, especially to take advantage of new users. Thanks for identifying this one! And I hope Steemit can get this sort of thing under control.
Not fully understanding this, it sounds like your creating 2 accounts? Thanks though
You need 2 accounts to do it.
Thanks @twinner!
Question...
Is that how voting power works? Or is it that your vote is worth what your current SP is? We've all seen post values decline in the 7 days leading up to payout. Is it because the value of a vote is pegged, not to the VP at time of voting, but rather VP at a particular moment in time?
Post payouts are declining if Steem price goes down and/or a lot of whales start voting more. But for the value of the vote only the number of SP under your control at the moment of the vote is important.
Thanks for the info!
Does that mean that waiting for your vote to return to 100% each time will result in an overall increase in your voting value? If you vote once from 100%, it decreases your VP by 2%, right? And your voting power goes up by 0.8% per hour, right? So if you vote once every 2.5 hours, you'll vote 9.6 times per day at 100% power... Which is $9.60/per day with your example account. Still less than the double account cheat, but more than if you just voted all at once.
Is this true, or am I missing something?
Wow, this is crazy. And relatively easy to do. I hope they use your suggestion to fix this. Thank you for pointing it out!
I hope it too.
@twinner static 11 days won't work because the $ value is not only based on the value of STEEM, it's also based on curation (in)activity.
The calculation assumes that there is no price change in STEEM and also all other steemians are voting every day with the same number of votes.
You need to calculate it based on voting power, not $ value of rshares.
I knew it! This is all about math! haha thanks @twinner, i got enlightened again!
Du mußt Dich nicht mit der Mathematik rumschlagen :-) Schreibe einfach Posts, und wir voten Dich, egal ob mit 1% oder 100%.
@twinner, a very interesting concept. Not that I understand it completely, but only that I can make $$ instead of $ by this method 😊. Let me check it out.
Hi @topdog, this was no call to do it. Be sure that such behaviour will be detected because every action on the blockchain is public.
@twinner, I agree there. I am not going to do anything unethical or illegal, neither at steemit or in my profession as a Marine Surveyor. In fact I don't even subscribe to paying bot for upvote. I did even uncheck my self vote while posting a blog for a while. (But then resumed it). Having said that I am amazed at the ways and tools that are coming up to beat the system or say draw more from the system. I don't have plans to have multiple accounts on steemit nor my $0.005 per upvote will make any difference at all anyway with any number of accounts.
But I am fascinated about the ways it can be played out here. Just that. Nothing more.
Sehr interessanter Post!
Danke und mach weiter so! 👍
Extremely grateful for the thorough reporting. Unfortunately I had to flag given the tone of the intro inciting to "abuse now".
Are you kidding me?
The headline "A tutorial for the advanced selfvoter" was sarcasm. Not a call to do it.
By the way, I flagged also some of the shameless comment selfvoters. Just check https://steemit.chat/channel/selfvoteabuse history.
Thankyou. I'm gonna reward your comments around here, great post but I don't want to see it at the top of trending for obvious reasons..
Need your attention @ausbitbank
One of your Followers!
Very good post. I upvoted and followed you. Please upvote and follow me back at @chantha.
great post, increasing your income value is something that most look for, instead of reading boring endless socialist non content texts with zero info in, how to live life or how to fing behave or ticking fingers on another one's fingers...most of that crap info can easily be find in 10000s of books,...if your interested in boring topics, don't need some Socialist cop dictate us what or not to do...only reason I'm on the internet is for making money...and music..
Ideas is what we all look for....making dollars, euro's cryptomonies, silver,....whatever it is...