Regarding the whales cooperating to game the system for their benefit: If they annoy too much people, market cap of Steem will go down and whales are the ones who will suffer the most. That's why they don't have an incentive to do anything bad for the ecosystem.
It's easiest to whales to benefit by helping the ecosystem to grow. The bigger is the market cap of Steem, the more valuable is their Steem Power.
@samupaha I hope you are right, but it’s pretty disappointing to see the way it works now.
@tracemayer Do the current incentives really provide better gatekeeping? It seems to me that they don’t, unless you think the judgement of the major stakeholders is so vastly superior and that they are right in mainly upvoting each others’ posts.
Isn’t it pretty much understood by now that “good” content is mainly content by people who have already been making a lot of money from their posts, and aren’t these mainly the well-known figures who may have valuable things to say but they still seem to be overcompensated by it? And they are also highly compensated when they put out drivel.
Are the whales just gaming it for the time being until people get too annoyed and then they’ll stop, or do some major changes need to be made proactively?
It seems to me that encouraging people to “pan for gold” (in curating) the way it currently works is really encouraging people to use their time unproductively, watching and waiting to pounce first rather than doing something more useful with their time. Good or “good” content is going to tend to rise to the top anyway, so why over-incentivize/over-compensate the first few people who discover it? I have the impression, especially with so many articles having now been written about it, that there is now a large number of people just sitting around trying to be the first to upvote what will become popular content.
Some whales and dolphins are trying to draw attention to “hidden gems” but even their criteria is confusing. Some of the gems aren’t such high quality content, and some of them are very high quality content but by already pretty popular authors.
One final thing I want to mention is that I think it’s a bad idea that posts can’t earn after four weeks. This de-incentivizes people who are building up content for communities that barely exist on Steemit yet.
Thanks for the opportunity to think about and discuss this.
Nice to hear the topic regaining traction with all of the news about the hacks coming out recently. Awareness of the tactic and strategy is the best defense.
Exciting news to read, thank you, and, as for everyone on the Steem network, look froward to the bright future of it. all for one and one for all! Namaste :)
"I stayed up late last night and read the entire Steem whitepaper"
Great! You might be getting the "Steem bug" ;)
I can't wait for your posts on the subject.
Being new to CryptoCurrency and a contributor to steem, this is very enlightening, thank you for sharing!! Consider yourself followed so I can learn more! Thank you!!
@tracemayer Excellent interview ! Upvoted ! (Already following) The more I learn of you the more I like. (This has been going on for a couple years now, lol)
As to the podcast. One of the points that I really liked is your excitement about the possibilities of steemit.com. I'm 55 and know that MOST "older" folks and even most of the younger people don't (imo) really understand what the possibilities are of immutable access to information.
Were you aware that most small town libraries are now filling the shelves with "pop" culture books and retiring the "Books that don't sell"? We are being "professionally" (As was mentioned in the podcast) inundated with misinformation. In America It is so hard to have a "real" conversation with a stranger, friends or even family because most (imo) are educated with "soundbites" and magazine articles that are for the most part, pure tripe.
This Neo education is what all intellectuals are upset about. How can we proceed to be free in this environment? Steemit.com could become an unbelievable resource (imo) as long as we continue to entice people like yourself, that are "classically" educated (Meaning, checking Referencess before accepting as truth.)
It is so hard now to talk to most people about economics, and the direct relations to freedom. Most don't understand the basic concepts, much less Austrian views. The discussion ends there with a plea to look at mises.org ... People talk about freedom but have never read "The law" or have never even heard of F. Bastiat, or for that matter, Von Mises, Rothbard, Hayek or Menger and heaven forbid mentioning Rand or Atlas Shrugged. Who IS John Galt !!!
Not to mention of course "Jekyll Island" or even "The Creature from Jekyll Island", Kudos to you btw, for that interview with G. Edward Griffin !!! That was another great interview. what a great man !
Sorry for the rant, I loved the podcast !
Excellent points. Education truly is the key to opportunity. Fortunately what people do understand is their own standard of living. And when one can break through on that point then one can really make an impression. Plus, truth will cleave its own way.
For example, my father's first job out of college paid 25.7 ounces of gold per month or about $500,000 per year at current exchange rates. For a college graduate with no experience. That is how much the State has conscripted the average American person's standard of living into the industrial complex!
preaching to the choir !, lol, but a very good point ... no opposition here though !
I wish i could remember my sources better ..argh, lol here is one for you.
The price of gold ... 1k yrs ago with 1 oz. of gold you could purchase a NICE robe, a handmade belt and a pair of handmade high quality sandals. Today with 1 oz. of gold you can purchase a very nice suite, a handmade belt and a pair of handmade high quality shoes ...
Nothing has changed but the deception of what we call money ... !
I have never really seen a credible and verifiable source for that assertion. Anyway, what one would want from their money is for the price of other goods and services to decrease relative to it. This would indicate greater productivity in the economy.
After all, if society is now using tractors and semi-trucks instead of plows and horses then you would hope to have an increased standard of living. Sure, there is the Golden Constant to deal with, from Professor Jastram, but that should be the general trend.
And that is largely what humanity has seen since around 1800 the average person in the most developed countries earned about $2.00 per day in today's value.
Great interview. I feel the whole Steemit universe is still finding its feet and as more high quality content producers join it will evolve and change. This is sure to piss of some of the early adopters but that's the way thing go.
I missed something in the discussion. I think it is very important to understand that the stories and upvoters get paid by the all the network's users. There is a 100% inflation rate on Steem. If you lock your Steem in Steempower you get 90% a year., 10% go to authors and upvoters. So basically you lose 5% per year (this is a simple explanation of how I think it more or less works). This is where the money comes from. The game is like this: can you make more Steempower than you lose every year by upvoting or posting stories? For populair authors this won't be a problem. Also someone could become a professional upvoter; shouldn't be a problem either. But the "every day average user" will probably lose money (of course there is a possibility that Steemit rises in value, but that will only happen if the system proves to be sustainable I think). What are his/her incentives to use Steemit above for example Reddit?
Could be:
It's decentralized, so content is always visible on the network. No censorship.
Everyday users like the game of voting and try to make money.
Something else?
I think in the end the "every day average user" will make the platform or break the platform.
My boyfriend just pointed me to Steemit, and this was the first bit of content I opted to explore. Wow...really interesting concept and enlightening dialogue about it. Prompted me to take a chance. Have now established an account and will be looking to curate and create. I feel more hopeful than I have in a long time about the possibility of overcoming--or at least happily navigating around--what I would term constant nannying and thought-shaping by public-private partnerships, as manifested via mainstream media, social media platforms, and related avenues of communication.
One of the things that particularly struck me in this dialogue was the observation that lots of platforms start out well...Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. The point was made that everyone's a purist at the start. But, as noted, where things often go terribly wrong with unfiltered content is when those running the platforms become more concerned with leveraging them as profit centers. Clearly, things take money to run. The fiscal need to ensure an enterprise can remain operational is not a triviality. I don't begrudge anyone the need to make ends meet and/or profit from a venture. What's depressing, though, is the way these platforms end up playing right into the existing power structures. The principle of making a buck shorts out the principle to have an unfettered venue.
As such, it's remarkable to see people thinking deeply about how actually to foster--and, moreover, truly incentivize, including monetarily--engaged and frank dialogue, philosophical discussion, information-sharing, journalism, etc, in ways that do not kill free thought, honest communication, and open inquiry. Really intrigued. Can't wait to see what comes of this avenue and what role I and others I know might be able to play in bringing such a noble experiment to fruition.
Steemit sure seems like a great skeleton--onto which a lot of healthy flesh and blood can be layered as the concept and development continue to unfold. I'm in.
Seeing Trace Mayer dip his toes in Steemit, the past 2 days, actually got me to buy some Steem Power for the first time. And Holy Cow! -- how easy it was via the "Buy Steem" sidebar.
Not sure what I think of the Steem Power yet since it is locked up for two years according to the whitepaper. Seems ultra-speculative to me but everyone has their big-boy pants on!
I think people will come to the conclusion that it is better to have some steem inflation eroding the vale of your holdings, but give you a chance for growth and a transparent stake in the organisation, than having the certainty of having your attention and time siphoned out to benefit Zuckemberg's advertisers.
This is an excellent interview, and I reference it, as well as link to it in my own #introduceyourself post:
@tracemayer offers possibly the best advice to minnows by clarifying their incentive; he says Steem Power derives value from the fact that it increases your chance of getting someone's attention. Check out his interview What is the Steem Network and how does it work? to better understand this environment.
Thank you for the info, I am new to this and have so much knowledge to share to help change this world and to lift the illusions that have plagued mankind for centuries, there are many old souls such as myself that found the genetic memory within the DNA to find that hidden knowledge from the start of the bloodline.
@tracemayer, what is missing in Steem at there moment is a sophisticated curation system. Right now it is too much of a blunt instrument, but has the potential to be something very powerful. Unfortunately, potential is not a foregone conclusion. So people liked you, people with influencer in the community and long standing reputation, need to promote high quality proposals for improving the platform.
One way to improve the curation system is to have a more sophisticated tag system based upon the LinkedIn skill tags model. Anyone should be able to add a tag to a post and others should vote on them. Rewards can be given for adding semantic tags and for upvoting those of others, the same as posting, except weighted less.
The best thing you can do for the community is putting your weight behind solid, practical, high quality Steemit Improvement Proposals that make it easy to find high quality semantically relevant posts so that niche subjects can thrive.
Regarding the whales cooperating to game the system for their benefit: If they annoy too much people, market cap of Steem will go down and whales are the ones who will suffer the most. That's why they don't have an incentive to do anything bad for the ecosystem.
It's easiest to whales to benefit by helping the ecosystem to grow. The bigger is the market cap of Steem, the more valuable is their Steem Power.
That is a great point.
Game theory -- like a bause.
@samupaha I hope you are right, but it’s pretty disappointing to see the way it works now.
@tracemayer Do the current incentives really provide better gatekeeping? It seems to me that they don’t, unless you think the judgement of the major stakeholders is so vastly superior and that they are right in mainly upvoting each others’ posts.
Isn’t it pretty much understood by now that “good” content is mainly content by people who have already been making a lot of money from their posts, and aren’t these mainly the well-known figures who may have valuable things to say but they still seem to be overcompensated by it? And they are also highly compensated when they put out drivel.
Are the whales just gaming it for the time being until people get too annoyed and then they’ll stop, or do some major changes need to be made proactively?
It seems to me that encouraging people to “pan for gold” (in curating) the way it currently works is really encouraging people to use their time unproductively, watching and waiting to pounce first rather than doing something more useful with their time. Good or “good” content is going to tend to rise to the top anyway, so why over-incentivize/over-compensate the first few people who discover it? I have the impression, especially with so many articles having now been written about it, that there is now a large number of people just sitting around trying to be the first to upvote what will become popular content.
Some whales and dolphins are trying to draw attention to “hidden gems” but even their criteria is confusing. Some of the gems aren’t such high quality content, and some of them are very high quality content but by already pretty popular authors.
One final thing I want to mention is that I think it’s a bad idea that posts can’t earn after four weeks. This de-incentivizes people who are building up content for communities that barely exist on Steemit yet.
Thanks for the opportunity to think about and discuss this.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Brilliant!
@tracemayer: this was an excellent discussion between you two. Thank you for posting. @marketingmonk knows his stuff.
IRT your discussion on 'controlling narratives', I wrote [this for BTCMagazine back in Feb and it ties in directly with that: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/i-m-a-former-green-beret-here-s-how-i-would-bring-down-bitcoin-1456165726
Nice to hear the topic regaining traction with all of the news about the hacks coming out recently. Awareness of the tactic and strategy is the best defense.
enjoyed listening to the conversation
Exciting news to read, thank you, and, as for everyone on the Steem network, look froward to the bright future of it. all for one and one for all! Namaste :)
I use to listen to Trace Mayer Podcasts on BlockChain Technology. Now I can support Trace work here on Steemit. Congrat!
yeah, it is awesome that we can give him money for a new epsiode only via an upvote. Crazy world we are living. :P
"I stayed up late last night and read the entire Steem whitepaper"
Great! You might be getting the "Steem bug" ;)
I can't wait for your posts on the subject.
Being new to CryptoCurrency and a contributor to steem, this is very enlightening, thank you for sharing!! Consider yourself followed so I can learn more! Thank you!!
Clap clap
@tracemayer Excellent interview ! Upvoted ! (Already following) The more I learn of you the more I like. (This has been going on for a couple years now, lol)
As to the podcast. One of the points that I really liked is your excitement about the possibilities of steemit.com. I'm 55 and know that MOST "older" folks and even most of the younger people don't (imo) really understand what the possibilities are of immutable access to information.
Were you aware that most small town libraries are now filling the shelves with "pop" culture books and retiring the "Books that don't sell"? We are being "professionally" (As was mentioned in the podcast) inundated with misinformation. In America It is so hard to have a "real" conversation with a stranger, friends or even family because most (imo) are educated with "soundbites" and magazine articles that are for the most part, pure tripe.
This Neo education is what all intellectuals are upset about. How can we proceed to be free in this environment? Steemit.com could become an unbelievable resource (imo) as long as we continue to entice people like yourself, that are "classically" educated (Meaning, checking Referencess before accepting as truth.)
It is so hard now to talk to most people about economics, and the direct relations to freedom. Most don't understand the basic concepts, much less Austrian views. The discussion ends there with a plea to look at mises.org ... People talk about freedom but have never read "The law" or have never even heard of F. Bastiat, or for that matter, Von Mises, Rothbard, Hayek or Menger and heaven forbid mentioning Rand or Atlas Shrugged. Who IS John Galt !!!
Not to mention of course "Jekyll Island" or even "The Creature from Jekyll Island", Kudos to you btw, for that interview with G. Edward Griffin !!! That was another great interview. what a great man !
Sorry for the rant, I loved the podcast !
Excellent points. Education truly is the key to opportunity. Fortunately what people do understand is their own standard of living. And when one can break through on that point then one can really make an impression. Plus, truth will cleave its own way.
For example, my father's first job out of college paid 25.7 ounces of gold per month or about $500,000 per year at current exchange rates. For a college graduate with no experience. That is how much the State has conscripted the average American person's standard of living into the industrial complex!
preaching to the choir !, lol, but a very good point ... no opposition here though !
I wish i could remember my sources better ..argh, lol here is one for you.
The price of gold ... 1k yrs ago with 1 oz. of gold you could purchase a NICE robe, a handmade belt and a pair of handmade high quality sandals. Today with 1 oz. of gold you can purchase a very nice suite, a handmade belt and a pair of handmade high quality shoes ...
Nothing has changed but the deception of what we call money ... !
I have never really seen a credible and verifiable source for that assertion. Anyway, what one would want from their money is for the price of other goods and services to decrease relative to it. This would indicate greater productivity in the economy.
After all, if society is now using tractors and semi-trucks instead of plows and horses then you would hope to have an increased standard of living. Sure, there is the Golden Constant to deal with, from Professor Jastram, but that should be the general trend.
And that is largely what humanity has seen since around 1800 the average person in the most developed countries earned about $2.00 per day in today's value.
Great interview. I feel the whole Steemit universe is still finding its feet and as more high quality content producers join it will evolve and change. This is sure to piss of some of the early adopters but that's the way thing go.
"Where does all the money come from?"
I missed something in the discussion. I think it is very important to understand that the stories and upvoters get paid by the all the network's users. There is a 100% inflation rate on Steem. If you lock your Steem in Steempower you get 90% a year., 10% go to authors and upvoters. So basically you lose 5% per year (this is a simple explanation of how I think it more or less works). This is where the money comes from. The game is like this: can you make more Steempower than you lose every year by upvoting or posting stories? For populair authors this won't be a problem. Also someone could become a professional upvoter; shouldn't be a problem either. But the "every day average user" will probably lose money (of course there is a possibility that Steemit rises in value, but that will only happen if the system proves to be sustainable I think). What are his/her incentives to use Steemit above for example Reddit?
Could be:
I think in the end the "every day average user" will make the platform or break the platform.
wow , trace mayer was the reason why i joined the cryptocurrency world. thanks for the utube videos.
redtube plz
My boyfriend just pointed me to Steemit, and this was the first bit of content I opted to explore. Wow...really interesting concept and enlightening dialogue about it. Prompted me to take a chance. Have now established an account and will be looking to curate and create. I feel more hopeful than I have in a long time about the possibility of overcoming--or at least happily navigating around--what I would term constant nannying and thought-shaping by public-private partnerships, as manifested via mainstream media, social media platforms, and related avenues of communication.
One of the things that particularly struck me in this dialogue was the observation that lots of platforms start out well...Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. The point was made that everyone's a purist at the start. But, as noted, where things often go terribly wrong with unfiltered content is when those running the platforms become more concerned with leveraging them as profit centers. Clearly, things take money to run. The fiscal need to ensure an enterprise can remain operational is not a triviality. I don't begrudge anyone the need to make ends meet and/or profit from a venture. What's depressing, though, is the way these platforms end up playing right into the existing power structures. The principle of making a buck shorts out the principle to have an unfettered venue.
As such, it's remarkable to see people thinking deeply about how actually to foster--and, moreover, truly incentivize, including monetarily--engaged and frank dialogue, philosophical discussion, information-sharing, journalism, etc, in ways that do not kill free thought, honest communication, and open inquiry. Really intrigued. Can't wait to see what comes of this avenue and what role I and others I know might be able to play in bringing such a noble experiment to fruition.
Steemit sure seems like a great skeleton--onto which a lot of healthy flesh and blood can be layered as the concept and development continue to unfold. I'm in.
Seeing Trace Mayer dip his toes in Steemit, the past 2 days, actually got me to buy some Steem Power for the first time. And Holy Cow! -- how easy it was via the "Buy Steem" sidebar.
Not sure what I think of the Steem Power yet since it is locked up for two years according to the whitepaper. Seems ultra-speculative to me but everyone has their big-boy pants on!
enjoyed listening
Truth is treason in the empire of lies. Now you get paid for your uncensored treasonous truth with steemit.
Great discussion in so many ways, just one key missing.
Great conversation and philosophy.
Hey Trace glad to see more bitcoiners and ancaps here. Have you got a chance to check out any of our story yet? https://steemit.com/@lily-da-vine
That dabber dog is too cute!
You're here... would you mind voting it up? Thx :) https://steemit.com/steemit/@webosfritos/top-bitcoin-pioneers-and-thought-leaders-you-want-to-be-following-in-steemit
Great article @tracemayer
Thanks!
I think people will come to the conclusion that it is better to have some steem inflation eroding the vale of your holdings, but give you a chance for growth and a transparent stake in the organisation, than having the certainty of having your attention and time siphoned out to benefit Zuckemberg's advertisers.
Sounds amazing !
Awesome stuff. Wish it was longer. Please post all ur stuff here now!
This is an excellent interview, and I reference it, as well as link to it in my own #introduceyourself post:
The post is located here: https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@geke/the-creator-of-those-geke-venns-is-now-on-steemit-and-advice-for-minnows
Thanks. I will listen on youtube since I seem to have problems with buffering on Steemit.
Thank you for the info, I am new to this and have so much knowledge to share to help change this world and to lift the illusions that have plagued mankind for centuries, there are many old souls such as myself that found the genetic memory within the DNA to find that hidden knowledge from the start of the bloodline.
@tracemayer, what is missing in Steem at there moment is a sophisticated curation system. Right now it is too much of a blunt instrument, but has the potential to be something very powerful. Unfortunately, potential is not a foregone conclusion. So people liked you, people with influencer in the community and long standing reputation, need to promote high quality proposals for improving the platform.
One way to improve the curation system is to have a more sophisticated tag system based upon the LinkedIn skill tags model. Anyone should be able to add a tag to a post and others should vote on them. Rewards can be given for adding semantic tags and for upvoting those of others, the same as posting, except weighted less.
Here is a post to explain more clearly: https://steemit.com/steemit/@manipulable/proposal-make-tags-useful-in-steemit-or-copy-linkedin
I believe with the above tag solution that steemit can seriously complete with Reddit.
And here is a post that has curated some of the best Steemit improvement proposals: https://steemit.com/steem-ideas/@beanz/give-steem-ideas-your-love
The best thing you can do for the community is putting your weight behind solid, practical, high quality Steemit Improvement Proposals that make it easy to find high quality semantically relevant posts so that niche subjects can thrive.
this podcast definitely helped clarify what steem power is and the value it holds so..thank you for the insight
This post has been linked to from another place on Steem.
Learn more about linkback bot v0.3
Upvote if you want the bot to continue posting linkbacks for your posts. Flag if otherwise. Built by @ontofractal