Ok, I will start this post by asking a question:
Why would you buy steem?
I will let you give your response as a comment, but I can only see two possible answers:
1.- To speculate: you expect a higher price in the future or you want to power up and earn interests.
2.- To gain more influence on steemit: powering up lots of steem will make you a dolphin or even a whale. You could use this influence to impact the rewards of others and decide which posts get more or less exposure.
In this sense, the power of whales to influence rewards is also the core value proposition of the Steem Token.
The intrinsic problem of bad whales
There has been some controversy recently regarding the right use of the flag option and whether or not whales are using their power for the best interest of steemit. But the real challange is: how do you control that power without taking away the very essence of the value of Steem?
Most whales became whales because they believed there was value in either mining or buying steem, they wanted to have power and now they do. Many of them could become consumed by this power, they could downvote you if they don’t like you and there is nothing you could do about it.
Someone could spend $250,000 and become a whale to be a total jerk. Of course, good whales will try to avoid it and this is how whale wars start!
What if we take away whale’s power?
Steem could hard fork to minimize whale’s power and have a better distribution of the steem token trough a more horizontal voting system. Minnows will sure be happy, but how about the guy who spent 250k worth of steem?, he would probably feel cheated as the rules changed after he bought himself a ticket to the whale world. There was an implicit contract between that whale and the blockchain that should not be broken.
Is Steemit just a game?
The answer to the problems I mentioned above is not easy find but I think that it would help the debate if we asked ourselves: is Steemit a game?
I believe you could argue that in life most things could be interpreted as a game, I would like to quote @craig-grant when he says that everything has a positive and a negative side, a good and bad, a ying and yang.
If we consider Steemit to be a game, then let’s play. Good whales will fight bad whales as an inevitable form of power dominance and we will see alliances, politics, betrayals and injustices. To me this is pretty much the scenario we have now.
But if Steemit is not a game, then we need to set a numbers of rules that users must obey in order to keep peace. I always like to quote this article from @onceuponatime since it lays out simple guidelines for when and how to use the flag option. I believe a witness behavior code should also be implemented.
The real problem
Whales are making a lot of SP on interests and curation rewards, which makes it harder for aspiring whales to catch up to them. You could have a killer 15k post like @dollarvigilante did and still be miles away compared to the 50 largest steem whales. You can also try to buy yourself into the whale world but this is also getting more expensive.
This situation could result in fewer whales joining the ocean, if whales become rarer their influence on votes will become bigger. More posts will go without rewards as the total population of the ocean will grow and more posts will be published but fewer whales to vote for them.
The bottom line is that we need whales and we are going to need more of them as the platform grows.
My personal opinion is that the current distribution system needs to be changed to reach as many users as possible, but this has to be done while protecting the core value of Steem and the implicit contract signed with current whales. It is not an easy task but I am sure @dantheman and his team are already brainstorming the hell out of this one!
This really isn't the scenario we have now. There isn't some sort of hidden whale war going on behind the scenes. Except for one or two anonymous individuals, whales have a fairly open discussion that identify vulnerabilities and exploits and possible solutions. It is not uncommon for a whale to openly complain of a vulnerability and open exploit it maximally at the same time. Others will try to battle this exploit in a game of armaments. But this is not war, it is a war game where the system protocol is the battlefield. The results are protocol improvements that create a system with greater integrity.
War games are critical to improving the protocol. It is one thing to concoct hypothetical scenarios and it is quite another to allow the players to try to make havoc and identify vulnerabilities empirically rather than theoretically.
but how cool would something like that be. I mean if it was actual whales.
You got it @chitty! Again, Dan is just making assumptions based on the few posts he sees. He hasn't actually pulled any data to show how many downvotes people have actually used. This whole notion of "bad whales" is nonsense in my opinion and from what I can see, and what I hear from talking to people, most are pleased with the way things have been going. Of course there are going to be people like @dollarvigilante who will complain, but who really cares about a post bragging about how much someone has earned that says the same thing that's been posted hundreds of time on here? Does that add value to Steemit? I don't think so and either do many other "bad whales".
It’s hard to decide what is good and bad without a set of written rules. There is always going to be 2 sides to every story.
What I tried to explain in the post is that whale’s power, good or bad, is the only thing giving Steem value at this point... taking it away completely could be far worse than the injustices some may think occur from time to time.... what we need is an efficient form to distribute Steem in order to have MORE whales.
a set of written rules about how people are allowed to use their votes? SHould we elect a central committee to enforce it. Maybe have political officers to make sure people are voting the right way?
I don't even know how to respond to that.
whales are giving up a lot of power by cashing out ( most currently do). By crashing the price of steem they will allow people to gain whale statut with very little money.
What I am more concerned about is people voting for themselves like bernie just did, this is a critical flaw imo.
Very true. And this reaffirms my suspicion that whales are frequently curating only based on potential reward payouts and not necessarily on the quality of the content, which is a major problem for long-term viability of the social platform.
Its not only him, but his sockpuppets, too, to swell the numbers.
Precisely. So at least he's being honest about voting for a comment here as opposed to voting for unknown sock puppets.
That's part of the protocol, to be able to vote for yourself.
Good / bad?
If it's removed, you'll just see random sock puppets and no way of verifying if they are his or not. At least with him voting his own comment, you know it's him.
I agree with you. I don have seen anny bad whales yet, and could not think it is that they want.
Ewery early adopter does wath he wants, and if they dont vote ewerything dat doesen mater. Couse the voting power sink ewery time you do a vote, so maby peaple who are noob understand why.
I have been here on steemit for a month now, and i see a realy bigg an fast growth. But some of the post who get bigg dollar vote lock wierd. But i dont care. I do my best to became a whale also. Since i am also a kind of early adopter here.
I reqruit friends all the time, and expect a wery big growth on this beta platform :)
Have a nice day guys
Well, to be fair - who really cares about commercial use pictures of coffee or even posts about non-existent "whale wars?"
The answer is: the people voting for them.
If you want quality content, you need quality voters. As it stands, many posters and voters are just playing the "trending topic" game. Tons of quality content is being ignored or completely drowned out and I don't really see a lot of whales helping to curate such content. At some point the game is going to have to change or lots of the quality writers will simply bail.
I would love to be able to get recognition for my posts, but instead, I just keep seeing whales and other influential voters complaining about trending content - when they are the ones who can actually correct it and start supporting those who are doing everything they can to get their quality posts in front of more eyes and be rewarded for their talents and efforts.
If whales want quality, it's in their power to find it and reward it. Isn't that the reason for being a whale? To ensure long-term viability of the platform by retaining those who can produce quality over quantity? Or is that not the case?
I've seen whales that are actively distributing and seeking unseen content. The problem is our community is growing (doubling within a few weeks) and there are limited whales so they're having a hard time keeping up.
I'm sensing a sense of entitlement unfortunately from a lot of people who feel unnoticed. Personally I'm not looking for whales or dolphins. By being consistent in my posts I'm seeing a very gradual increase in my list of followers. It's not the lotto that motivates me it's the future!
I was referring more to the ones who are upvoting the trendy content for the sake of making money on it. The fact of the matter is, if they want a change in voting and actually want the quality content, then the whales are the ones who are going to have to take the lead on it. They have the ability to greatly impact the voting habits on the platform. That's why they're whales in the first place. They're supposed to curate the quality content, not simply find the easiest posts on which to make money.
I'm not accusing anyone in particular and I'm not saying that it's all of the whales. But whatever the case may be, they have the power to change it.
@beanz
Not the trending content, but the trendy content. Like the steemit tags and the celebrity posters and whatnot. When the crowd knows what the trendy topics are, they're going to go vote them, even preemptively in the hopes that they'll be rewarded. The whales can change what is trending and what tends to be trendy by bucking it and finding quality.
Like I said - the very purpose of the whales is to curate quality; to reward those who deliver on quality content to make the platform more viable for the long-term. I'm not really seeing much of that. If there aren't enough whales to do that, then that's also a problem. But the incentive for curating tends to be skewing the trends and even influencing whale votes while they're missing out on far too much other quality. Dolphins seem to be helping, but the same curating incentive appears to be creating similar trends.
I don't know what the solution is, but if the voting habits continue, the quality will suffer at the expense of the entire platform - which, in turn, doesn't exactly benefit the whales. So it's on them to figure out a way to resolve the issues.
Voting on content that's already trending doesn't give them higher rewards than finding unrecognised posts that are likely to do well. The trouble is not everybody understands that once a post has been whale bombed the curation reward for any after voters is not as high, instead they think they'll make money by voting for what's trending and because they think this it doesn't matter as much to the whales what they vote on because the minnows are following them regardless of the quality of the post they vote. At least that's what I'm seeing.
@atx-david
Your comment is illogical. Everyone can't be early to vote on that content. Someone has to vote for it once it is already (low) trending to send the reward into the thousands and beyond. The people doing that aren't doing it for the rewards.
What is a "quality post" except those posts people happen to like.
The issue is, at this point, Trending is what people see first, not their feed of people they have followed. So getting on the start page is going to be the goal, and how to make yourself viral.
People can and should pick their own start page. Set your browser bookmark to
https://steemit.com/@wizwom/feed
I like how u look at it. But, what about posts like this - Win 12.5 BTC by tweeting about Steem ?
Are you really what people mean by "bad whale"? You have your own tastes and you're an enigma :) .. But there's the other issue of like Facebook etc coming in to try to make it a worse experience when/if Steem gets big.
I'm a noob and just getting used to how it all works, but I find all this whale stuff interesting lol.
You see that bad whales are a problem right now because we are all swimming in a big swimming pool... When mass adoption will come we literally will swim ALL in a giant OCEAN ... How likely will it be then to cross a BAD BIG WHALE ???
They will be more like this....
Yes that is exactly my point, we are going to need more and more whales as the ocean grows... good or bad is subjective, it is impossible to agree 100% on another person’s behavior.
It seems a pretty big Ocean already, however I could be wrong since I just started this journey. am certainly currently calling myself a minnow and wondering how long I can stay alive?
There are about 6000 daily users on Steemit today. That is tiny relative to any successful web site. Swimming pool might be an exaggeration. Thimble is more like it.
Yeah, but there's the bigger the swimming pool, the more influence whales have. Because there's more posts that just get lost in the shuffle.
When its an actual swimming pool, do you seriously think someone is going to invest money in being smooth? 3 million (or more if the price recovers a little)? Thata a fantasy.
The whales now are going to be the only ones, because the extent of the secret open to everyone mine we were discussing in the other thread priced everyone else out of the market.
2.- To gain more influence on steemit
First you get the steem; then you get the power; then you get the girl.
lol
At the same time as we need more whales, don't forget that the current whales are re-distributing their wealth while at the same time powering down. With more users and more activity, the whales will be just like other whales and newer whales who started first now, but in a year or two have become whales cause they put a lot of activity and contribution to the site. On Steemd.com you can already see how the distribution of wealth is being balanced out on the daily, and other users are closing in on the "1%".
My goal is to become a whale so I can vote on discussions and interests that interest me, and keep those tags active and alive in the future, while at the same time welcoming newcomers to the site.
untrue. im actually going to post a more complete picture with real numbers for curation rewards and blogging rewards. But even the least optimistic numbers you typically see on this site don't tell the whole story.
https://steemit.com/steem/@sigmajin/cooking-the-books-the-real-story-of-whales-and-dilution
good lukc!
Hehe, thanks. You too. :)
We are actively looking for ways to reduce whale influence and bad behavior. So far the best solution we have identified is to remove curation rewards all together. The existence of curation rewards does the following for whales:
In other words, the curation reward system may be fundamentally broken and should be discarded. Once the curation rewards are discarded, then whales face no opportunity cost by not voting.
Why should I hold Steem power if you are going to nerf it?
Because profit?
Steem Power can affect the value of the awards for your post each vote
@dantheman, have you considered the idea of lending SP from the whales to the dolphins?
A whale could lend some of his SP (and take it back any time he wants) to a high-reputation dolphin and let her do some of the curation on his behalf. The curation rewards could be then split equally between the dolphin and the whale.
Dan actually did a post on this yesterday:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@dantheman/follow-up-to-people-rank-algorithm-for-better-curation-rewards
That was my understanding of this post he wrote the other day
i thought of this also while i was driving, even before seeing your post. I was thinking of loans in order to help curation and spread rewards around better. It would be voluntary, of course, based on trust. And it could be revoked by the whale at any time.
Creation rewards need to be higher for the lower steam power levels and lower for the higher steam power levels - a gradually decreasing scale from the highest SP or vests on the network to the lowest.
Right now I there is not enough incentive to actively curate content.
I think even the power at which whales can boost posts should be lowered slightly and minnows increased slightly.
Interesting...
This won't work, because whales will create a lot of accounts.
This will not work. I'm approached (mostly by unsolicited chat PMs) nearly every day by authors who want to pay me for my votes.
In fact, to some extent, objective evidence of this can be seen clearly on the blockchain by looking at any whale's wallet. Unsolicited payments attempting to buy votes are received constantly. Often these are 0.001 but sometimes they are higher. If higher payments are more effective then we will see more higher payments. These are unsolicited payments, but even without any explicit agreement, those sending the payments can continue sending them to the whales who comply.
Voting power has a value and a market will form. At the high end the amounts at stake are high enough that transactional barriers to such a market become insignificant.
Removing curation rewards has more effect on the middle and lower end where it reduces engagement and any opportunity for voters to be compensated for their contribution (since transaction barriers impede a side-payment market) than at the high end where money and power will always find their equilibrium regardless of the blockchain rules.
I think you are really on to something here. If curation rewards are removed, it removes the incentive to vote on content that other people find valuable. Voting will become little more than a way of distributing funds to authors. It would open the floodgates for abuse and bribery.
If you're worried about whales not voting in a way that benefits the platform, why would you eliminate one of the primary mechanisms for ensuring that they do so?
Do the curation rewards include the value of the voter's own upvote? If it does, that should be changed before ever considering the removal of curation rewards entirely. Average users appreciate curation rewards, and taking them away removes an incentive to engage with the platform. But typical users don't really benefit much from the 25% of their own vote, which is at best a penny or two.
This can't really be done without incentivizing SP splitting and other manipulative games. If my vote doesn't benefit from the effect of my vote, then I will vote first with a small account, then with the larger one. The smaller account would benefit from the effect of the larger account instead of the (now-disallowed) larger account benefiting from itself.
It helps to think of a large account as being a whole collection of imaginary small accounts (say 1 SP each) that happen to be working together. Changes that try to put caps or limits on the ability of one account to fully benefit from its SP will encourage people to make these into actual small accounts.
Even coalescing all votes from a single IP into one pool wouldn't prevent this exploit; proxy services are common enough.
yeah, whole can of worms trying to track whos got what sockpuppets.
Oh man.... hopefully you can find a better solution. Curation was a big selling point for me joining as I'm sure many others as well...
Honest question:
If we get rid off curation rewards what would be the incentive to buy steem?
my guess is that you can still earn by posting and commenting. And that your weight in Steem Power would still proportionally move posts and comments higher. Am I wrong? Not sure but I hope that this is the case!
I wonder about that, too. For me this was a crucial element of the platform logic. If someone invests time in careful and responsible content curation then this should be incentivized. At least in a system in which posters get rewarded by exactly such curation efforts.
Speculative reasons: the guess that some may have made by now that the value of Steem coins/power/mist whatever the unit is called might grow just like Bitcoin and that investing a grand into Steem now regardless of any curation or posting rewards might return a nice 10 grand or another very profitable number. I think whether or not curation rewards become discarded, and whether or not interest even becomes discarded the mere fact that 10 Steem coins may become worth 10 BTC sometime in the future is a very integral part of providing incentive to ensure the Steem community grows healthy
If curation rewards are removed, surely large holders still have content visibility control as an incentive. Maybe this isn't such a bad thing and can be considered more of a balancing act. As dan said, the curation system may be fundamentally broken when large holders can game the system not for the benefit of the system but for private gain.
As for answers to your question, I think the incentive to buy steem still remains, except just one fractional aspect of the incentive would be gone. People will still buy it for the ability to make steem denominated interest at a rate higher than else where, they will also retain the content visibility voting power, whether or not this is important to them i don't know. And of course, the speculators will continue to speculate.
I am but a minnow who can't afford to buy steem. I am not incentivised to curate for profit because as a minnow there is barely a profit. And that's how it should be for a minnow.
But for those who have steem, such as the dolphins, the end of curation rewards I believe would be the end of steemit. And without the dolphins steemit isn't very promising for the minnows either.
There has to be another solution and thank you @dantheman for putting the issues here for everybody to brainstorm on.
There may be holes in my suggestion as I know that @steemit holds the majority stake of steemit.
But I'll throw it here just in case you haven't thought of it yet.
First of all I think the proposal you made in your last post about proxy vests for friends is going to massively improve the platform building lots of dolphins who can help with future bad behaviour.
Currently the more SP you have the more you accumulate from curating content. You say that per account caps will result in sybil attacks and since I'm not very techy maybe my suggestion doesn't get passed that either.
What if curators with higher SP could get higher curation rewards only up to a point? Such as a 3% stake of all steem or even 1% once this is further distributed
Would this prevent a 'whale-gone-rogue' from overcoming others as to remain vote-active on the platform they would have to remain below whatever SP that % is at at any given time?
@dantheman give half of the curation voting power and rewards to the 99%. Also give 20% of the new steem created each day to the newbies that are actively using steemit. The more active they are the more they get paid. We also need a direct bank link or a very least a paypal connection. So the masses of none crypto users can get in. The social media Butterflies
I hope you find a better solution !
@dantheman if we turf curation rewards, we go back to the reddit system where users still upvote a post or a comment because they like it. But higher ranked posts and higher ranked comments are still going to earn Steem Power and Steem Dollars... correct? I think that would break the entire system if that was also turfed. Keep that and you can still keep the motto 'Blogging is the New Mining'.
These are sensible points @dantheman but I would think about that carefully though before making such a drastic change.
I'm not sure what the rate of voting is vs the rate of posting. I suspect removing curation rewards completely might cause a significant reduction in the number of people voting.
There is already a perception that many people just "post" and leave.
Again I don't have the data with regards to that but it makes sense that when people are taking a lot of time and effort making a post they will have limited time to curate content.
There needs to be some kind of encouragement for curation.
One possible alternative I have considered is that curation grants a "posting reward". What I mean by this is that everyone must curate a certain number of posts before they can post their own.
Obviously this could have it's own potential problems in that people could just start randomly voting on content to simply get to necessary amount of curation in order to post. It would also penalise people who are more picky and selective in their voting. Perhaps you can think of a way to make this more viable.
Anyway it might be useful if you did a separate full post on the curation issue.
That way the community might also be able to help in coming up with a workable solution. The more people looking at the problem the greater the likelihood it can be successfully be solved.
Maybe adding more stats to curation rewards and having how well you have done curating affect your reputation score?
I think this is cause authors get ~70% of the rewards while commenters and curators are left with less, if we could maybe go down to 50% for author, 30% curation and 20% comments, it would give people more incentive to comment on posts they can relate to.
Currently I don't see how commenters have incentive to comment with more quality content on related posts except for hoping many happen to read it and vote on it. In the cases of not even the author replying or giving a vote to commenters who took a lot of time to contribute, its really sad to see happening.
Edit: I just wanted to add to what I quoted, that I spend a lot of time here and I see a lot of authors, doing their 4 hit posts a day, going afk with 99% voting power and a couple people followed while having many followers. Leaves a certain un-personal trace after their articles and makes it look like its just a magazine you are reading now with random titles and content.
Edit 2: we really need an edit indication with a timestamp at least, would make edits a lot less confusing.
I agree and I'm more likely to upvote authors who I see active in comments and voting. If I don't see that, I consider the posts to be more "hit and run" or worse press releases and do not constitute quality engagement for the platform and in some cases I might even downvote it.
I don't think we need special incentives for comments as that will attract spam, but we do need to pay attention to who is adding value and who is doing hit-and-run. I do agree that the low value of curation rewards is part of the problem both for engagement and the value of STEEM (I objected to cutting them from 50% to 0-25% and I object to cutting them to 0% as Dan mentioned is being considered).
Isn't the possibility to allocate funds itself already a big enough incentive to vote? Currently with many big accounts not using their voting power, effectively you get nearly twice your money to distribute to good content of your choice. What do you want more?
Currently many people are just voting to get the curation reward, not because they necessarily like to support the post. Also the curation reward algorithm is so complex, that not many will understand it.
We could give the saved money from the curation reward to fully verified accounts. This would help greatly to encourage newcomers to participate at steemit. More on how this could look like please see my other comment below.
Up Vote for the curation rewards lol but good point, being able to vote on the allocation of generated funds is definitely also an incentive in itself.
" reward to fully verified accounts"
We need to be making crypto-currency (and anything dealing with it, such as this platform) more private/anonymous, not less.
verifying accounts does not mean, that all accounts need to be verified. it just means, that you get an universal income if you have a verified account. nothing should stop you to create 100+ unverified accounts.
I agree. When I first found Steemit my first impression was that voting rewards should probably be removed. I think it could also help make bots less successful. I think bots have their place but it wouldn't be good if they amass too much SP for too little effort. I'm also worried that too many people will be sour if curation is removed.
Can't the whale just create a few alternate IDs that are commenting on threads and then upvoting them? In this way these IDs will get 100$ out of 100$.
i think users should flag other people only if their content it's a spam or a stolen content and not because you dont like the post... that will take away the freedom of speech
Dan -
I don't think it's necessarily a flaw with curating, but more of an issue with the whales that are curating. It seems that many of them are voting on posts for the express purpose of making money, not for seeking and rewarding quality.
There appears to be a feedback loop consisting of trending topic and whale voting, then an influx of other voters jumping in to "ride the whale," so to speak, in order to try to get some of the curating rewards. You can even see some of the attempts at preemption from dolphins and minnows. A post less than a minute old can have four or five pages worth of content, but already have upwards of 10-20 votes.
The whales should probably start seeking better quality content if they want a viable platform for the long haul. That's going to involve passing on the easy cash and spending more time searching new and obscure contributors. The question is whether or not the whales that don't currently do that are willing to do so.
"but already have upwards of 10-20 votes."
I see this less as trying to ride the whale and more "these people voting are fairly new and have no idea about the 30-minute rule".
You're bringing in people who have been trained, through other platforms, to click "Like", the "Up" arrow, or the "Thanks" button whenever they appreciate the content, agree with the content, or find the content funny...and then they move on to the next post.
So that's what they're doing,
Discounting all the bots, of course.
My point was that there's no way they could have read the content within the first minute. They're just upvoting based on prior earnings by the author. And there's no doubt that they don't understand the 30-minute rule. They just think that they'll be getting rewarded, apparently.
yeah in current model good whales have to "work" to protect network, so not onyl they helped STEEM raise by holding SP but now they are full time employees :)
I feel like this is also connected to scalability. Being one of the curators I find it extremely difficult to curate these days because there is too much content. That way I changed to focus on virtual curation by early supporting posts with money. Whales being good or bad make the 90% curation of content anyways also the popularity of certain users does the same. I feel scaling down author rewards, curation rewards, and influence where it would mean one user for example 10 cents for upvoting and 1 cent for curation or something like that would be fair and could settle things down. Then payout for curation may be multiplied by someone's vests and created steem divided. This might help thing out.
Removing Curation rewards... It removes incentive to sort or seek good content. And whales are meant to be small in numbers. We need more Dolphins and smaller active voters. to help sort posts. Also one good dolphin downvote. Should hinder whale misbehaveing. Dolphins UNITE! Followed by smaller accounts etc...
I agree, more power should be in the hands of the dolphins.
I offered a solution aimed at engaging dolphins more actively in the curation process:
https://steemit.com/steemit-ideas/@innuendo/a-smart-contract-for-a-one-off-whale
Isn't curation rewards essential to the core of the system? Why would anyone want to hold large amounts of steem power, if they do not have more curation power that comes with it? Why would anyone want to buy steem?
Interest.
Very interesting idea. It would definitely change things. The main question is - would people still upvote and curate content if there was no curation reward?
Yes, upvote (we know this because it happens on every other site with no rewards) but no there won't be any real curation. Voting will be done very superficially, likely based on what is already trending, written by well-known authors, written by their friends, or has paid promotion behind it.
No one will invest in combing through dozens and hundreds of crap posts and poor authors to find the few good but unknown ones. If you think it is hard for quality content from independent authors to get noticed and rewarded today, it is nothing compared to a system without curation rewards.
I think this is already happening. Voters seem to just be preempting posts from trendy writers posting in trending topics. And those voters include many whales. Plenty of quality content is already being completely ignored and there's usually not a whale in sight when it happens...because they're still voting the steemit tags and whatever new social media celebrity joins the platform.
If the voting needs to change, the whales need to take the lead on it. I could give you a few posts myself to look at. This could be a valuable platform doing some really great things. But many of the people trying to make it great are essentially being pushed to the point of non-existence because of simply quicker opportunities for money/power grabs. It's unfortunate.
simple: when a whale does a "like" on a crap post that makes no money, charge the whale.
That is, have a negative payout minimum for curation awards, so there is a risk to random upvoting.
im probably wasting my time bringing it up, but what about simply using some non linear, non exponent method of weighting steem power to votes.
Im not talking about 1-man-1-vote. something like RMS, or based on a standard deviation from the mean... Well maybe from the median because the megawhales screw up the mean, but you get my point.
I get that early investors/adopters should have more influence, but can't it "just" be 500 or 1000 times more influence than the guy who invests 10k in steem power. I get that you have sweat equity but seriously that much sweat?
OK, maybe im just dense, but i don't understand what makes an evil whale evil. Because what it seems like is "evil" is just code for someone voting in a way that you don't like.
Isn't the whole point of having a vote that there isnt some controlling force to "punish" you for using in a way that others deem "unacceptable".
The primary concern I am reading is that this would disincentive voting, but as @acidyo pointed out below, there are already many users not voting. The curation incentive is a nice addition, but I agree in that I don't think it is 100% necessary. I'm no economist, but as a user, removing it wouldn't really bother me. I would be happier knowing that whales aren't gaming the system than make a couple more pennies with my votes.
I wrote an article on the same topic a day or so ago, but with a different proposed solution. Perhaps it is way off-base or perhaps it may spark some new idea: https://steemit.com/steemit/@captainpicard/a-controversial-way-to-fix-steemit-whales-will-hate-this
Random voting could be made ineffective by weighting rewards against future success of postings. You only get a curation reward if the articles you voted for do better than random in the end. Just an idea, perhaps it could be made to work.
I think I have a solution, please consider it.
https://steemit.com/steem/@wizwom/splitting-flags-and-votes
What about only removing curation rewards on comments? That seems lik It fixes the problem you describe while still incentivizing useful content curation behavior on posts instead of comments.
And this is all from last year. The problem must be becoming more acute nowadays.
One of the suggestions I really liked was to have the curation rewards extend from 0.001 to 0.0001 as the minimum. At least the minnows will see that their vote counts for something, it can be discouraging to feel like your voice has been completely ignored.
Yeah, minnows voices ingores everywhere, in their posts and in the voiting too, it's very hard stay long here, when you feel that people don't "see" you in all directions.
Went to see your posts and you seem to have made about 20 dollars worth of steem out of blogging, by no means is that much but how much have you gotten out of other social medias? I've been posting to Reddit and I never got anything out of there, here I might get some, but you were happy to post to other platforms for free before, why it is a problem now?
Also for example on reddit, your post could have hard time getting visibility also as it needs upvotes just the same as here. So why would people post elsewhere where they get nothing but still have hard time getting visibility rather than here where you might get something(small/big rewards) while still having to work for visibility? If steemit continues to grow as an platform there will be more people voting, people with different tastes and backgrounds, and that means more possibilities for content creators to earn, but making steemit your livehood will be hard just like in any place else - Steemit is no different in that regard.
i've already wrote why i'm here
https://steemit.com/life/@seva/don-t-give-up-if-you-don-t-earn-money-on-steemit
maybe my previous comment looks like hate post :
sorry for my english, i agree with @fingolfin it's important to give beginners feeling that they are part of this platform. Even will be enough something symbolic.
I didn't see it as an hate post and I hope you didn't see any hostile attitude in my post either as I intended none to be there. What symbolic things come to your mind?
"So why would people post elsewhere where they get nothing "
...It's not everyone's goal to have mass visibility and become the next internet superstar. The tools I've listed above are just a few of the reasons why Steemit users keep going back to Facebook even though they get no money for it.
Some of these will be implemented in Steemit for sure, others can be built using steem blockchain but using other sites. But good points and Steemit doesn't have to cater for everyone or try to even.
i think you wrote it wrong... cause from 0.001 to 0.0001 its less rewards
Yes it is less rewards, right now if you would get under .001 it rounds down to zero. I would rather have .0001 than zero.
The "bad whales" rhetoric is harmful. If there is specific behavior that is "bad" then please specify it and explain why. This applies equally (in fact more so since he has greater influence) to @dantheman and others.
This post was not about "bad whales"... that is subjective and it will always be subjective unless there is a set of specified rules of what large holders should and should not do, that is why I quoted @onceuponatime post about "flagging etiqute"...
On the contrary, my post was trying to bring attention to the fact that limiting whales power will diminish the core value proposition of the steem token.
Of course it wasn't "about" bad whales but it featured the term prominently and many of the comments have continued to use it without defining what they mean. My comment was as much a response to other comments as to the original post. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Hi @smooth, i know that @dantheman is not a bad whale, infact i think he is doing a awesome work with steemit, but even he can make a mistake and become a bad whale, here the reason why i told this.
I actually think we need more dolphins. Dolphins are the happiest lot because their votes count and they feel like they are heard. Perhaps there is a way to create more dolphins faster? I have no idea how this would be accomplished but having more dolphins I think would even things out as far as minnow frustration.
Although I like the idea of removing curation rewards, I think people will be upset. Is there a way to restructure the curation rewards?
The latest distribution analysis shows a continued rise in dolphins which has recently accelerated. To me that makes perfect sense since dolphins are often created by being a successful blogger and earning rewards. This week we have seen several successful bloggers joining the platform and all have been earning.
So the answers to your question about how to create dolphins faster, at least for now, are: 1) keep doing what we are doing; and 2) recruit and develop more successful bloggers.
removing the curation rewards will be a bad idea..
Dolphins are an important part of the platform too, but I fear that as whales gain more power from curation dolphins impact in the eco-system will diminish.
Hasn't the trend so far been a rapid increase in dolphins relative to the whole system?
I think Dans previous post of giving proxy vests to friends would help create a lot more dolphins.
As for removing curation rewards completely - That would be steemits downfall.
disagree. IMO the platform needs less whales, or at least smaller ones.
Every single problem the platform has faced, from catfish to spam to plagarism etc has come becasue the whales simply don't have the amount of attention to give to curating well (totally not their fault. one human being can only read and evaluate so much so quickly. I wasn't surprised to learn that the best whale curator, smooth, was actually 10 people)...
Even the @dollarvigilante thing. Personally, i agree with the @berniesanders ' flag, because i thought it was a crappy post that stood to make a ridiculous amount of money on top of the ridic amount of money DV had already gotten.
but even if bernie was wrong, the entire situation was prompted becasue a bunch of other whales got together and pumped that and others posts up. SO it was basically an unreasonable amount of influence one way, and an unreasonable amount of influence the other way.
If it was just people voting, even people with varying levels of influence, the crowd and the market could have made the decision. I don't mean necessarily one man one vote, but there should be some constraint as to proportion.
It doesn't make any sense that it would be ok for 2 or 3 people to pay him thousands of dollars, but somehow unacceptable for 2 or 3 people to take it away.
I guess it all depends on when he bought it. I bought in at 40c, and i sold most of what i bought at around 4.40. I keps 5K or so though that i eventually ended up powering up.
Since i could have had 20K or so for that 5k when i decided to keep, it i consider that to be what my current investment is (though its currently worth around 12k)
my vote counts for $.08
So someone who invested a quarter million... their vote would count for what? A buck? two? that guy isnt a whale.
these guys are whales... and no, most of them did not get that way by investing money... they have sweat equity. lots of it, apparently.
https://steemit.com/@berniesanders/transfers
https://steemit.com/@ned/transfers
So the problem isn't that limiting whales would take influence away from the 250,000 investor, its that it would give it to him. Make it so that putting enough money for a starter house into steemit gets you more than a fraction of a percent of the voting power of the whales....
Maybe it might give people a reason to actually buy steem and power up.
You're numbers are a little messed up. Someone who invested $250K when you did would have about perhaps half as much Steem Power as berniesanders (rough estimate because I don't know the amount of antidilution payments; it is 1/3 ignoring that altogether), far more than a fraction of a percent. Not the biggest whale, but still a whale.
My point was that i considered my "investment" when i powered up (at $4.40 or so) instead of sold my last 5K steem. That is to say i bought my steem when it was 40c, i bought the steem power when it was like $4.
But lets split the difference and talk current price. right now for the price of a starter house i could have a vote worth what? Two bucks? It looks like sean-king has about 100K and his vote is worth a buck something. Thats great if youre looking to maintain your control, but if youre looking for steem to actually sell, and for people to have some kind of incentive to power up then what youre offering is overpriced.
I think there is another option. While yes it may be considered an investment a savvy tech giant like Bill Gates could buy steem because he wants to show support for the platform. He may solely enjoy reading content and not care much if the return does anything, but will be able to help others in a way that before now was not really possible. By buying a large amount of steem it will create a demand and drive the price up (I believe).
Yes this is not likely the case for most of us who are using the platform, but I would not be surprised to see donations come in some sort of way.
I like the system being that the more money you have invested the more voting power you have. A whale cannot simply pull all their money out after wrecking havok amidst this ocean. In fact apart from finding it amusing, I can't imagine why a whale would want to waste money in this way. Investing money to me is the belief in long term gains like you said.
I like the system this way and would not wish to change it.
Hadn't fully thought about the implications of a rogue/naughty whale running about. My original assumption was that whales are invested in the platform and should act in a way that would protect their investment. But what if a whale bought in simply to try and destroy the platform and profit from shorts (a kind of DAO scenario)? Or what if a whale had the community turn against them and they decided to just vote poorly out of spite?
With the new reputation system, I bet @dan and @ned could come up with a way to use it against "killer whales." If a whale starts acting maliciously, what if there was a way to flag their "vote reputation?"
But then again, this could cause people to start creating bots to try and rig people's voting power... Definitely a tricky predicament to solve.
Statements like this give me pause. first, as ive said in other comments, you havent really defined an "evil whale" except as someone thats voting in a way that ned and dan don't approve of.
Second, youre talking about using the reputation system... so ned and dan can make sure everyone is voting the way they want? There's an easier way to do that, simply take away voting.
I defined an evil whale by example:
"But what if a whale bought in simply to try and destroy the platform and profit from shorts (a kind of DAO scenario)? Or what if a whale had the community turn against them and they decided to just vote poorly out of spite?"
Um. Where did I say this??
You are grossly misquoting me and adding your own words to mine. My point of concern is that if a "killer whale" were to start voting maliciously, the current counter-measure is to just vote opposite to them. But this requires other whales to monitor their account, or a large enough group of minnows. Perhaps this might work and is the intended function, all I was doing was throwing another idea out there.
Interesting. let me come back to that.
well, one would only assume that if ned and dan are using the reuptation to sabatoge this person, they have decided that they think the way he is voting is destructive right.
I didnt quote you, i merely anticipated your answer to my first question, and based my response on that.
You have been kind enough to give me your definition of an evil whale. The basis of your definition is intent. State of mind. So what defines an evil whale is what he has in his head when he votes. Not the vote itself, but the reason behind the vote. EIther its spite or a desire to profit by destroying the platform.
It should be taken as a given that this reason can not be determined objectively through obervation. I can't look at, for example, bernie sanders vote on the DV and know for certain what the motivation behind casting his vote was. Even if he states his reasons (he did), there is no way to be sure he is being honest. Worse, there is nothing i can really use to infer the voters intentions except the vote itself.
So at the end of the day you have ned and dan, using the reputation system against other whales who vote "maliciously" because they looked at how he voted and determined that res ipsa loquiter the vote must have been cast maliciously.
But why stop at whales. Why not simply tweak the system so that the can use it against anyone who votes in a way they deem malicious. After all whales shouldn't have less rights than anyone else.
Great reply. I agree with your concerns that this could lead to censorship based on certain users determining what is acceptable voting and what isn't. I'm happy to concede a point if someone demonstrates the fallacy of it.
they should leave it as is freedom of speech... a whale has equal rights as another user...
they lucky they joined early... and that's all.... maybe @dan and @ned could make it that the higher the level the more less the rewards and voting power are... that's the only way to keep balance....
I outline this structure in a post: Steemit Proposal for Developer and Community Evaluation
https://steemit.com/steemit/@mrosenquist/steemit-proposal-for-developer-and-community-evaluation
Number 2- really? So for people, who can't write posts, and trying to get up from voting it becomes more harder.
Yes, but it is offset from the larger rewards for content and therefore for those who upvote.
Right now, new users don't get any curation reward as they don't have enough steem power. They can vote all day and still they will get nothing. They can be the first voter with all the whales coming in after, and they still get nothing (as the curation reward is split based upon the power of the upvoters).
So the only way to earn is to contribute content (blogs or replys) which can earn $. At least in the model I propose, minnows will actually get a little curation reward and will earn author rewards if anyone upvotes their blogs/reply's.
new users should buy steem... that's why steem exist... you don't make money if steem is not bought and sold.... where do you think steem dollars get the money from??? @mrosenquist
The platform was marketed as a "contribute, and get rewarded" venture.
What you're describing is a "pay to play" system, aka a ponzi scheme.
full of steem!
hehe
OMG! He exploded! :)
In red it is the hacker? :)
Gazzy day at the beach :-)
Very interesting, certainly a popular talking point at the moment!!
There are many solutions:
2 is something I thought might work but it takes away something called "casino effect" which is very important to steemit. So we can't have that. [ read @dana-edwards for more, very good info ]
What a great post! I´m looking forward to your stories!
It's dilema, the system still need whales, but more good whales join steemit.
I noticed that there are whales that do not encourage a good, normal (not spam, and do not cheat) comments on their posts. at all.
they simply place their post, upvote several others posts, interact in the comments to their posts, but still do not encourage curators.
it is sad.
how come?
they selfish and greedy :)
can't agree with you.
It's your right. :)
but these whales, dolphins exist. :)
I have always been in favor of having a system of rules, but really work here? it is necessary the existence of whales, but the debate will always be in the distribution of upvotes.
So, I need to buy more and more steem power ........
Steem is a currency and you need currency to increase your purchasing power. But market forces (demand and supply) come to play in deciding the down and up of these currencies.
It's not that expensive when price is plumetting!
I would say, buy what you can and what you can afford to lose. Happy trading/speculating/steeming!
Sorry I believe the bolded is an impossible option.
The only way would be to change from voting out of a shared pool of debasement to tipping from individual wallets, which is not a viable model.
Sorry IMO Steem is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
And the rich are now growing richer on Steem.
One week does not a trend make. The longer trend is the opposite. At least, more data is needed before reaching such a conclusion.
Upvote, except the longer trend is also not certain.
Yes, the rich are getting richer and harder to catch... so in the future there will be fewer whales and the ones we have now will have more power.. this could become a problem in the future.
Simple: If you are married, then buy it. You'll need it when you pay her 1/2 if and when she cheats, leaves, or both.
mmmmm!?!
More like maybe a gang of dolphins can hit a bad whale. If people recognize a bad whale, maybe it get's overrun by the whole ecosystem on steemit with minnows going pirrana but then that kind of will upset the whole balance of steemit of people being wary of whales...even if it turns out to be just one bad whale...huh. You brought up vaild point of a potential problem that can later be absolved with a solution with open discussions.
what, flag every post that a jerk like @berniesanders upvotes?
what? no. That's not kind of what it meant. Is there a system in place to tell what is a bad whale is more of the question.
lets show the power of Steem
Transform bad whales into good whales
cheeers
Good :)
I have a proposal for steem power rental market. Please give me your comments on it when you have a chance. Thanks,
https://steemit.com/steemit/@atomrigs/proposal-steem-power-rental-market