I have a long train ride to read all posts by @dantheman and this post really struck me.
There is a lot of controversy about @berniesanders announcing to flag @minnowbooster. Some call him an abuser for flagging people who probably got into the crossfire undeserved. Some call him a dark knight and savior for saving steem from vote buying that he initiated with @randowhale.
My opinion is that vote buying is a symptom for a bigger issue of discovery. New users have a hard time getting noticed. Many don't care about content or the humans behind the screen. A few dictate most rewards.
There are many good discussions on how to solve these underlying problems and participating in the process of finding solutions is incredibly important.
Until this process comes to a solution, minnowbooster will be 'the better bot' with a team that cares. Sure, we earn money for the work we do and there is nothing wrong with that. And we will protect our customers at the best of our abilities.
The last week was rough and interesting. I talked with @berniesanders and he said that many complaints about buildteam were raised to him. And I think it is really sad that I got to hear none of them, so nothing can change. Most feedback we got was implemented as soon as possible, was completely unaware of reality or was something no solution exists for.
Some users expressed their disagreement with flags and we didn't retaliate. We respect the fact that others have different opinions and they have a right to express them. Just because some like to threaten others doesn't mean everyone will.
At first I was pretty angry at bernie and his lack of feedback, what his problem was. But I thought about it and he is just a human being like I am. He was not aware about rando abuse happening and about all the work minnowbooster does to combat abuse. And I see him making up for it by digging up a lot of abuse he will probably flag starting in the next few hours.
I don't think minnowbooster customers are part of the abuse and in the spirit of dans post I could probably offer a list of really bad guys. Should @berniesanders or someone else find abuse of minnowbooster then we can unvote it. I decided to ban @earthnation on their recent behavior and will leave the decision to others if their use of minnowbooster is justified.
So to summarize, my take on this matter and my suggestion:
• if you think, what I do sucks, tell me
• if you dislike something, flag it
• I won't flag you for disagreement (outside of rewards)
• minnowbooster will exist as long as users need it. If you hate MB, try fixing steem.
• If you hate me getting a few dollars for the work I do, I suggest you support Utopian.io as Systems like this could be an incentive for developers to get payed for doing things for free.
• Stop crying reward pool rape and fucking do something. Should steem require witch hunts to survive then the system is flawed. Getting away from a linear curve and delegation could help, but more discussion is needed.
Get uncomfortable, buckle up, this will be a bumpy ride and there will be no heroes or villains, only humans.
Thank you very much for pointing out Dan's post. Really good and a must read for everybody on Steemit I should say.
I'm glad that you and him have actually spoken and that you were both able to get your points across and learn some things you weren't aware of. This seems better than ranting in angry posts (although we'll see what the future holds there. More so for him than you).
There is clearly a demand for minnowbooster (and randowhale before he went into permanent sleep) and of course, people are going to look for loopholes to exploit them because there's a financial incentive to do so. I'm glad that you are keeping track of that and fixing the issues as they come up. Let's face it, there's not a lot more you can do since you can't anticipate every single issue.
I would also question those who think it's unfair you get paid for your services. How does giving all your time and skills generate new and better products/services? Financial incentives breed innovation and competition. That's just the way it is. I'm also guessing none of these people would do the amount of work you do on steemit for free.
So thank you. Keep up the good work.
Thank you!
I am looking forward to how steem evolves. It will probably be a tough ride, but that is to be expected.
I'd work on steem itself, would I get payed for it. But I don't have the luxury to work for free. And innovation on steem would be a lot faster if developers earn from it. That our utopian-io founder had to donate his payouts to stay credible is not something I am looking forward to in the future...
especially since the profits don't just go to one person like every other upvote bot, but to a diverse group of investors... and actually, nobody has been mentioning this lately, but minnowbooster reduced roi on it's bot so it's only for visibility and is quite a bit more difficult to be used to for profit.
Welcome to reality!
Probably new users need to understand that this place was not created to make quick money but to create value.
The fact that a steemit user may eventually get rewarded monetarily for that value is a great plus (an extra), but it should never be the main and initial driver. Ask authors how long it took them to publish their first book in the markets.
Nothing worth ever comes easy.
Vote buying is completely counterproductive to organic and healthy growth. It won't ever be able to really satisfy the demand of longlasting visibility, attention and brand recognition.
What about trying to earn attention instead of purchasing it?
Now there will be people trying to sell me that life was easier on steemit back in summer 2016 when some of us older users joined the platform. But I tell you something: that's not true. The only thing that was different back then was the mind-set. What people have forgotton in the meantime is that this is a 'social network' and not a money printing mashine. Instead of being constantly complaining about missing rewards, people may think about what they may contribute to this platform first.
That re in RE-ward has a meaning.
When they finally understand that 90% of the people who are listed on the trending page and receive some decent rewards, have invested LOTS of money and time and dedication in this platform for months, and that many of them are building real projects on the Steem blockchain, then they might eventually stop complaining and start working instead.
Sorry for the long text! It's just that I can't here the whinging anymore.
Steem on
Voila! Once again I do agree with you.
Oh well, I started June 2016 and got 0.40 cents on my first article..
It took me 12008 posts to get my attention ( by some) . Count the hours ......
Its hard but fun " work".
I said it before, I tried those services but gave up on them.
Nicely said, @mammasitta. We've got 'the best job in the world', don't we? :-)
I enjoy every second so far! It’s actually quite insane how much I have learnt this past year and some of my friends call me “nuts”. Oh wellllllll 😝
You are really a hardworker then. Good for you. Inspired
In recent times it’s getting more and more difficult and frustrating to see how things are rewarded. I am running out of Voting Power way too fast and I am not a so called “small talker”, especially not with a few powerful “whales” who mostly care for their own profits and how to get them. I am disgusted how some “play” the community and My eyes can still see “reality”.
No place is perfect but I like the honest!!! people I met.
That’s why I am still here!
Thanks to you and other writers, steemit is still going on. If steemit had depended on google or other ad networks, this site would have folded up long ago. Self promotion is very much frowned upon. If the whales only cared or maybe found a bot to reward quality, then steemit would have really grown to greater heights.
Usually I agree with most you say and write - I certainly do NOT agree with 90% (pre booster time) of listed on the trending really create value. We could then probably start a different discussion to define what is value :-)?
Also the soon-to-start war is as far as I understand not about the concept of vote buying which I personally see as more transparent and honest versus the behind the curtain circle jerk agreements in place - but that is life, relationships count which is not bad per se - it is just reality. It happens everywhere not only on steemit or online - no whining on it.
Just wanted to outline my thinking - which will not change anything. We need to accept how it is or work on improving it the way the individual thinks by themselves. Some suggestions to change with a new HF I have seen already yesterday on the Roadmap 2018 posts which might help Steemit on a long-termed basis (kudos to @ats-david and @jesta) like:
Source suggestions by @ats-david below:
https://steemit.com/roadmap2018/@steemitblog/steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested#@ats-david/re-steemitblog-steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested-20171116t213306723z
Change the voting algorithm from full linear to anything but full linear. This has been an abject failure in practice and ought to be rolled back. Then we can discuss a better alternative that is neither n2 nor n.
Restore the 40-vote target.
Remove the STEEM Power delegation function. It not only reduces user demand for STEEM on the open markets, but it has also created another avenue for widespread mismanagement and abuse/exploitation of the collective and limited reward pool.
Reintroduce stronger bandwidth limitations. The amount of spam on the network via posts, comments, and wallet transfers/memos from new accounts is very high and is greatly inflating the daily "transaction" numbers for the blockchain. This is "bloat" that can be easily managed. Those who wish to spam can spend money on STEEM, if they so choose.
Consider reintroducing the four-post reward limits. This has no impact on the number of posts that one may publish in a given day. It only affects the total number of rewards that one user can receive from the limited collective reward pool.
Source last 2 by @jesta:
https://steemit.com/roadmap2018/@steemitblog/steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested#@jesta/re-steemitblog-steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested-20171116t191410456z
Beneficiaries Payouts: Currently beneficiary rewards only pay out in SP. These rewards should pay out in whatever method the author of the post chooses (50/50 SBD/SP or 100% SP).
User/platform configurable rewards distribution: The hardcoded 75%/25% Author/Curators split is something I'd like to see customizable. This ratio should be configurable within the comment_options operation and support between 0/100 and 100/0 ratios. Each Steem powered website could either set this ratio at the platform level or surface the choice to the end user via the interface. Different types of content deserve different types of rewards and by allowing this option to be configurable, it opens Steem up to different opportunities.
I think it's totally OK that we don't fully agree on anything :-)
Question: how would any of these suggestions you've just listed improve the visibility of a brandnew user? I thought we were talking about a minnow problem, but voting algorithm, post limits or payout shares are not really effecting someone who has a reputation of 25+ and wants to grow.
Instead of trying to rearrange the rewards distribution, we probably should rather think about a bigger picture: how to make time spent on steemit valuable?
Sorry, the suggestions I listed are top ones to make Steemit a fairer platform not necessarily improve visibility of brand new users.
My entire comment was more related to your point of creating value which could be discussed for months. I think this is based on the perception of users what they see as a value. We only talk about what creates Value for Steemit, usually what users see as value. This does not necessarily mean it creates any Value for Steem as a currency, different things.
Before I start to elaborate for hours why I do not see value in particular posts let us maybe agree that it requires some open discussion, nowadays we have black or white thinking mainly and wars are never good, flagging of scammer shit is NEEDED, therefore I fully support some Flags when it helps the community.
I remember when I was a young user here and tried to moderate between some powerful whales to stop flagging each other - was a shit idea. I learned that you should rather be silent here before they flag the shit out of you, only sometimes I come to comment my thoughts. Back to work now - need to create value for my customers now.
YES. Agreed :-)
Sorry if you feel that my post was whining. That was certainly not the intention.
I agree with you that providing value is important. I don't agree that visibility is good. There are many opportunities for improvement and while we should not give everyone a cookie, currently the cookies are distributed pretty badly. And I don't think that that is an unpopular opinion 😉
I wasn't talking about your post. I was talking about a general mind-set.
I didn't say that. I only said that it doesn't come for free.
Everybody who wants a piece from the cookie as you named it, should do something to earn it.
In the past I have done lots of video tutorials and even given personal trainings to new users on steemit. Some of them are really on fire and want to learn, others don't. The first group is the one that's going to succeed here.
Don't take everything personally btw :-)
No worries, I don't :)
Yeah, I agree that you should work to get rewards. My issue is with those that work and get no rewards. But that os my opinion.
Generally, we as a community should start finding consensus. It should not be the decision of a few.
I thought a bit about vote-buying and the service that @minnowbooster is providing and there are pros and cons. The current reward system on steemit does not reward good content directly, it rather rewards it by counting votes. The issue with that is that there is an emotional component that influences how votes are distributed. If you are my "friend" I generally vote for you regardless of what you write. If you are new and you don't have popular friends on steemit you are pretty much screwed. @minnowbooster is actually addressing an issue of Steemit, it's a promotional tool that new users can use to increase their visibility. Nobody gets rich by purchasing a vote with @minnowbooster, all it does is increase the visibility of posts in the trending page. Rationally it would not make sense to go through the trouble of promoting a post if I did not genuinely try to write good stuff. Going after users that try to promote their content is not going to solve much. People answer to incentives, if there is a certain behavior you want you just have to find a way to reward it more effectively. Right now good content is not rewarded directly, how many votes a post receives should be just one criteria, I am surprised view counts are not considered at all.
I agree with you :)
View count is a thing steemit is calculating and is not part of the blockchain. If you view this post on busy.org the counter does not increase. Or they may have their own counter.
@rhondak also recently wrote a great post about this topic: https://steemit.com/steemit/@rhondak/thinking-like-a-whale
Hey @reggaemuffin,
I don't understand everything, so I will give opinions where I'm capable. What I will say is thank you for throwing down that ban on earthnation. The people who run the vote bots becoming aware of the abuse and taking measures I feel is a big step up from where everyone was.
Mahalo,
shello
Ein wirklich guter Post mein Lieber !
Kann dir da einfach nur zustimmen und finde dich deine Reaktion hier sehr vernünftig und erwachsen.
Danke! Genau das war mein Ziel. Schwarz Weiß Denken ist unangebracht in dieser Situation.
"My opinion is that vote buying is a symptom for a bigger issue of discovery. "
you spelled capitalism wrong
' If you hate me getting a few dollars for the work I do, I suggest you support Utopian.io as Systems like this could be an incentive for developers to get payed for doing things for free.'
wait.........
Yeah capitalism sucks and 'money talks'.
My point is that utopian-io could offer developers an income so they don't have to worry about money.
I'd love to have a basic income or live in an abundance society and work for free but the real world is saying no.
basic income is a bad idea and communism works far better than capitalism
All communism I saw till now had huge mismanagement issues. It would require a huge change in thinking to have it work. I wish you luck and would probably join you, but I don't believe humanity is ready for it.
Abundance societies are a good middle ground in my opinion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/wiki/debunk
here is the debuking anti-communism masterpost, it has sources on that in there
capitalism is a management nightmare, we still haven't done anything about climate change
Cool, I'll check that out. But I think there are more solutions than comunism or capitalism.
market socialism failed and mutualism is kinda trash
take chile for example, on 30% of the trucks they were able to move 80% of the resources as they could while capitalist.
Crapitalism. It's called crapitalism.
I think you spelled oppression wrong
What I posted on transisto's post:
My idea to solve both spam and vote buying is to encourage those like @blocktrades and @minnowbooster, even @berniesanders if he needs a new direction, to change their business model. Instead, delegate to trusted curation teams like OCD, Steemstem, steemiteducation, some of the country-based ones and so forth, who will then do the quality curating with that SP, thus boosting the minnows and reducing spam ability/incentive
To get an ROI, they could offer a premium where any user can send a small payment to prioritize viewing of their posts, edit: and higher potential upvote value (but not guaranteeing an upvote). There are enough people in these teams to cover most tags and can always recruit more.
Convincing a few whales would be a far easier solution than changing the framework of steemit via hardforks and the like, and they'd still profit if done right
First of all thanks for the open words @reggaemuffin - I certainly am sure all your work has been with good intentions and you helped most users of your service to date. I am quite sure Bernie is not fighting the Vote Buying itself here - I do understand he is flagging some people not deserving high rewards which I support if he hammers the right ones away. You are a good boy! You do good and you are not whining. I probably am not able to help you in any other way then commenting.
If it is against vote buying (which I doubt) all of these services would need to be addressed, ideally in an open discussion or with rules forked into the blockchain or how you call this. I agree some posts simply do not deserve certain high rewards - which leads again to the usual issue of the trending circle jerk shit - which is a result of relationship building which is normal.
The move jerk and the new delegation scammers are the main problem here in my view which need to be addressed. Have a great evening!
Yeah, the delegation spammers are something that definitely needs addressing and I would help bernie, would I not have to save my power to defend myself...
Since mb did not do delegation spamming and reviewed all whitelist candidates before approving them, I see no reason for him to attack us, other that him dislikeing vote buying.
Sadly he doesn't want to give me feedback on where to improve. So we will wait and see I guess...
Great to hear you would support the delegation spam fight! I am sure he is not dislikeing vote buying as such
I hear “whitelist” for the first time.
What’s THAT!?
I keep myself silent and keep on going but obviously I miss out on being “whitelisted”. Can you imagine how many feel like me?
I don’t like small talking into some lists or circlejerks but obviously you can see it also on my rewards and payouts. If I would not have my followers I would drown and steemit would loose a very damn loyal Steemian who never powered down.
What about Rewards for “Loyalität” to STEEM & Steemit?
“Wait and see”! I do but things got worse here, worse than ever ....@reggaemuffin
The best way is to play fairly and think of sustainable development in the system. Thanks @reggaemuffin, your summary ends it all
Thank you! We have to look beyond personal fights and start the discussion again.
And just for a little while could we stop using the word rape to refer to something that can't feel a damn thing?
Not my choice of words. I think it is ill suited but established, can you propose a replacement?
plundered
So rewards pool plunder? Sounds cute
I'm sure pirates view plunder as cute. But who can recognize the pirates? And while we're on the topic, there seems to be a real lack of quality posts from certain whales. Am I the only one to notice?
I think we're in the wrong sausage fest to be making such suggestions. As a rape survivor, I literally had to shrug THAT bit away so I can deal with being attacked by yet another woman-hating Internet troll - bernie.
You have been flagged, likely because you are attempting to take advantage of the reward pool. Please see my daily post for more detailed reasoning. Thank you.
I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the history and maybe some of the inner workings of steem and steemit. That being said, I have a question.
What ever happened to the crab bucket?
Though I think the idea was poorly portrayed in the white paper, I think it could have had the ability to stave off a lot of the problems we have now. I think if you looked at many of the top trending posts in a given category, most users would come to one of two conclusions;
or
The ideal solution would be that each user would see themselves as an independent judge and assign rewards based on their assessment of the work. In the example, users (if they understood how it all worked) would most likely downvote the top posts because doing so would free up funds in the reward pool.
Why wouldn't they just upvote their own post?
Downvoting the top post would be more effective because it is more likely that people would see it and come to the same conclusion.
Ideas for implementation
I see you are running for witness, do you also have a seed?
Sure thing, since a few months ago. And a co-managed rpc node.
A view from a not yet minnow, only a lowly redfish. Upvoting yourself to have your comment visible, a waste of a person's vote power. Human nature most people are going to click to see what you said, just to see why you were downvoted. It's like driving by a car wreck, you have to look.
The Trending page, I don't see what the problem is here. I look at and view many of the post listed there. I don't care if it is from a whale, a dolphin, a minnow, or an occasional redfish like myself. And yes I have seen all sizes on the trending page, so it is not exclusive to only massive whales. It a source, the fact that most of the post are from large accounts is somewhat of a blessing to us redfish. We look to see what is there that we can learn. Same with going to and looking at the steemit trending post.
Vote buying, that is a self respect issue in my opinion, I don't, and won't use it, but I have no objections if someone want to "Pay to Play". I just mute and ignore the vote scheme bots.,(and yes I view them as schemes), because I believe they serve no real purpose.
Flagging, well it's in the FAQ's page of steemit, pretty much anything goes when it comes to flagging, there are some guidelines, but that is all they are "guidelines" people can vote, or downvote content for whatever reason. The community has come up with a solution that if you feel you are a "victim" of down flagging there is somewhere you can turn to and that is steemitabuse. (had to use them recently), if you feel that someone such as @idontlikeyouropinion is only flagging your comments because you are politely offering a dissenting opinion they will review and take action if needed.
As your post and many others are doing. Thank you, for being concerned.
@reggaemuffin - it seems like those that have more to gain here on steemit will also have more to lose, whether it is reputation, $ or friends. I have always been a big believer that if you can't let go of something then it is also not worth holding onto, and that no matter how much reputation or $ you make it is not something that you will regret not having more of when you kick the bucket. So I think those of us that care most about the quality of our work and the dear friends we have made on this platform will keep going because nothing else matters to us as much...
I use MB often to boosts my post.
It is not the reward that matters but the exposure that MB allows by allowing us a moment on the hot page in the hope to get to the trending page.
As a minnow, it is indeed difficult to get the required exposure especially if we are not full time on the platform.
All in all, I feel that the way we treat problems on Steemit and the lack of action / initiative leads to the price of Steem to stagnate and eventually scares off potential investors.
Isn't there a better way to deal with these problems? Can the Steem blockchain be evolved as quickly as the market demands?
Keep up the great work XD
Minnow support projects really help planktons like me especially when no one knows you. I agree that there are lots of spammers but they eventually leave because no one encourages it
hi @reggaemuffin i'm @rezzouk.elabiad i sent yesterday 0.050sbd to @minnowbooster with my post url but i didn't received up vote please to check and give me feedback
no i didn't received just go to my last post and see you will not find it
And next time please don't hijack random posts, go to our discord
oooh really sorry i was confused because they didnt make the picture in my postcomment so please your discord because i need some informations to sell my up vote to someone and to benifit sbd
Our last announcement told you that we stopped the goats to not spam your feed :) And to compensate, we include that information in the memo. Read your posts for the discord
I am going to do something. You will see, just because you're too fucking ignorant to leave well enough alone.
I think, 'well enough' is a huge problem, as it works somewhat but not really. We humans are really resistant to change and it needs to be drastic to get us to do something.
So you are welcome, I made you do something about it.
I agree with you.
I agree with you completely. And I do hope some kind of dialog can be reached. But as we say in Israel - to make peace and prosperity, you need a partner who is not looking for war.
You're awesome, and are doing an amazing job. Remember that. <3
Hey @berniesanders ! Flag this comment if you need a hug!!!
In the end it boils down to this:
But we are social beings and vote based on other things than reward disagreement.
We need other whales to chime in and state their own opinions by up/downvoting. While bernie at his core os probably well meaning, having only one person decide is not what the network needs.
I disagree with bernie singling out you, so I countered his flags. But I may agree with him flagging someone else. I don't think that he is just evil.
" I don't think that he is just evil."
Unfortunately, I have no reason to think he is anything but evil. Narcissistic, selfish and violent.
You can be sure that your last sentence won't help to defuse the situation..
He has a bot army on my account and every post or comment I make gets downvoted to hell with hundreds of fake accounts. And I assure you - I did NOTHING to deserve it.
How would YOU feel if someone did that? How would you respond? Wouldn't you offer them a hug?
It is your right to be offended and he is behaving irrational in this case. Actions like this will be countered. But this is not the only thing he is doing so I don't want to fall into black white thinking. Nothing good ever comes from that.
Nothing will stop me from offering hugs to everyone!!! <3
But seriously - I am going to believe you that there's good to bernie, even though I haven't seen it.
Sorry to interfere in this
situation, but how about you just don't mention him again and let it all in the past.I'm sure he won't be bothering you if you won't be bothering him. People may see him bad(i sure did when i was just starting browsing the platform) but in some cases he actually fights against abuse and stands for the rights of many. When you act while being furious, no good things will happen.Say sorry and just let it go.I guess you worked hard to build up your account, so why do you want to continue this..thing?Exemple of sorry :
Just my 2 cents
(plz don't flag me)
How about he apologizes for calling me names, attacking me personally and getting carried away? I did not. He did. And I could not care less about this account or money. I just want to see violent bullies taken down, rather than to submit to their reign or terror. Don't you?
I understand that you feel hurt. And that's not what I was aiming for. Telling him that he should flag your comment if he wants a hug is a blatant invitation from you for him to continue what he is doing. But it's your account and your decision.
That statement is the result of my assumption that this comment, like any other I made in the past few days, will get automatically downvoted to hell by the script he put on me. I am not telling him he should flag it, just assuming it will be. If it's not - I'll be pleasantly surprised.
And my account is worth nothing as long as bernie's bots are flagging anything I do down to hell. So I've little to do but offer him hugs in retaliation to his name-calling and personal bot attack on me. It's what I have. Hugs.
You're still doing it, you're just too goddamn ignorant to understand. Not surprised though...
Just wait until later today, you're going to see your rep drop like you never imagined.
Go for it. Come at me. I am sure you've nothing better to do with your voting power. It's not like you want to make the platform BETTER. You want to ATTACK and BULLY people.
And yeah. You REALLY need a hug. Because dude, how can you contain so much hate and negativity? Doesn't that... hurt?
Also, lower than -19? I don't think so. No matter how low you think you can push me, I will NEVER be as low as you. Not only in reputation.
You have been flagged, likely because you are attempting to take advantage of the reward pool. Please see my daily post for more detailed reasoning. Thank you.
Thank you! Some of the things bernie is doing are good, but many are not. And he is not able to take criticism himself. That is why many like him, I guess. The one you can't blame.
to be fair if he doesn't upvote his comments the rep will hide them
Then why upvote them $6 and not $0.05? It needs 2 cents to show a comment. He could have one account upvoting him with a small percentage automatically, but he votes with 30+ accounts and 6 dollars.
true, I guess his motivation is just sending it to the top so more see it. If you have money you are important here and deserve more I guess.
The rich having more power is definitely a property of steem. We could discuss if that is a bad thing and how it can be fixed but that would probably mean ditching proof of stake.
the problem is that we keep trying to use capitalism to fix the faults of capitalism. There is no "good" network we could make that functions on these ideals
Check out abundance societies, they are not capitalism.
Steem is not capitalism. In capitalism, rewards would be given directly from the consumer to the authors. That is not the case here.
did you just tell a communist that he defends the ruling class? Disgusting
actually its so that he can ignore me long enough to get a foot hold and spread communism unchecked. Also I know he is doing it to support his own agenda but discussion is better than blind hate.
You have been flagged, likely because you are attempting to take advantage of the reward pool. Please see my daily post for more detailed reasoning. Thank you.
@block-police
YES! Every. Word. YES!!!