Steemit voting is different than the normal voting we are used to. Every vote, quite literally, counts. This is unlike most elections we are used to wherein only 50.1% (or less) of votes end up counting. This may seem more equitable than simple "majority rules" elections, and indeed it may be, but it also presents problems as well, for we humans remain only mediocre at adapting to new paradigms.
Consider a US election run in the fashion of Steemit voting , or the way Steemit Bid-bots work. Every vote results in an equal proportion of the agreed upon bounty based on contribution – in this case, "rulership of the free (ahem) world". If you get 1% of the vote, you get 1% of the ruling time.
Let's further suppose, for illustrative purposes, that the KKK has rallied 1% of the total vote in support of Hitler's Ghost, and BLM has rallied 3% of liberals into supporting a dual ticket of Marion Barry and OJ "The Juice" Simpson.
Stake weighted voting, in such a ludicrous hypothetical, would result in rule by the criminally insane (or, at least crackheaded) a full 4% of the time. There is, at least arguably, a reason we don't always do it this way.
Steem voting works akin to our hypothetical election of Hitler's Ghost. The final result is not filtered down to a binary winner/loser. With Reddit, on the other hand, the upvotes are simply "totalled in with" the downvotes, resulting in the (completely incorrect) illusion that there are no downvotes on Reddit.
Steemit gives us information that we aren't always used to seeing expressed directly in a numerical fashion - namely, that some percentage of people will likely hate us, no matter what we do. Sure, rewards are totaled, but downvotes are treated in a special fashion with their own icons and functions such as hiding posts, comments, and images.
The reason upvotes/downvotes are merged into a total on Reddit is the same reason Facebook resisted the dislike button for years...and years. Humans do not react well to negative feedback, even when they know, logically, they may be producing something that many people will not like. Our ego investments with our creations, even our "shit-posts", can not be easily left at the door from whence we entered.
Let's look at whatever the current top post at Reddit is. No cherry-picking.
With how much most of the Star Wars movies from the past 15 years have sucked, we can all probably agree that there is really no harm in a fan recreation of a classic, albeit somewhat anticlimactic, scene. Any fresh Star Wars content that isn't being humped by Disney for money would be welcomed by fans, there are no spoiler considerations of merit, and nobody is asking for any money. It was obviously popular enough to make it to the top of Reddit, and if it doesn't interest you, move on. That's how a reasonable person would think. Right?
5% downvotes means over 1000 people cared enough to log in and click down-vote. Approximately 1007, to be precise - although Reddit hides the exact numbers for reasons that are, again, salient to this post.
There is no way to reconcile both the full transparency and accounting of all opinions that Steemit offer, with the ego-soothing validation of pretending everyone, everywhere, will like us all the time.
I'm not preaching or suggesting anything be done. I've made my thoughts clear in previous posts. I've experienced the flagging that's going around lately as well, and overall, I think it's counter productive. However, I'm often surprised we don't see even more flags than we currently do. I guess what I'm saying is that we should all, logically, deal with even unjust flaggings better than we do. Yet, it is normal and expected that we do not, and as a result, they will continue to have a far greater effect on content creators than simply the rewards they remove.
Remember, this guy has a Steemit account too:
We also have a Radio Station! (click me)
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Sources: Reddit, Google, Techwalla
Copyright: South Park, Star Wars, John Cougar Mellencamp, Juicy Juice
Love that Hurt's s good music video like the scenes in the biker bar. That was a pretty good timely South Park episode.
South Park is pretty good at being timely and poignant.
One man's justice is another man's criminal act. A lot of the individual downvoting seems to be spam, f4f, vote for vote, bullshit bot type comments.
Then you have the I am going to create some drama by down voting this really popular person, so that I can make a post bragging about it, so I get a lot of kudo's if I phrase my actions right, and a really really big pay-out on my post.
Then I can make a whiny post about how nobody but me is even trying to do anything about all those meanies stealing from your reward pool, so I can get even more votes and even bigger pay-out for all the drama I created.
And so steem turns the days of our lives.
"Then you have the I am going to create some drama by down voting this really popular person, so that I can make a post bragging about it, so I get a lot of kudo's if I phrase my actions right, and a really really big pay-out on my post.
Then I can make a whiny post about how nobody but me is even trying to do anything about all those meanies stealing from your reward pool, so I can get even more votes and even bigger pay-out for all the drama I created."
Ah, so you did realize the sub-text of what I was talking about!
Let's not forget hive mentality to go with it...
It is an unfortunate truism that people are generally easily swayed collectivist/communist, because thinking is hard.
Popular people will tend to have a whole lot of SP to retaliate with. I recently created a little script that posts an overview of top down others and top downvotees, and appart from the @steemcleaners and likewise actions from the powerfully against plagiarism and silly comment bots, there is actually quite some retaliation going on. A dolphin pissed about a flag by a minnow could totally obitherate that minnow, just like a whale could destroy a dolphin in retaliation without breaking a sweat. So creating drama like this? I'dd rather go to a bar where kickboxing champions hang out and start insulting everyone's mom 😁
Yeah, at least the kick-boxers can't uppercut you in the checking account. At least, not directly.
A small dolphin can do only little against a plankton.
A big dolphin like some witnesses can indeed destroy plankton if he wants it enough.
Remember a downvoter controls only his downvotes and not others' upvotes, so any account can grow while being flagged by a bigger account.
As an example, this post may be flagged by a small dolphin, but it may still cause an overall increase of my reputation and Steem Power.
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I think that while downvoting is possible it will only become more common - as the site grows and attracts more people, with more agendas, and more competition
The problem will always be that people see the pending payout and view it as ‘their earned money’, even if there are still 6 days to go.
It is interesting that people view downvoting as taking away from them something that they have already earned, while they don’t view upvotes as giving them something they haven’t yet earned. This will never change
I think downvoting could result in people being to focused on being "politically correct" and do not offend anybody instead of being honest and transparent. I think every great idea gets lots of "hate" therefore downvotes so this could result into neutral post being most rewarded and discourage people posting honest opinions.
I'm afraid we've already passed that Rubicon, and are looking at it in the rear-view mirror.
It's interesting that you say that... This is my first day here (this is actually my first ever post) and I'm here specifically for the censorship-free nature of the forum. I hadn't really considered the negative consequences of such totally free expression. I was drawn to this site becaue of all the great things I've read so far or heard from user videos as it regards the welcoming nature of the community as a whole, but I suppose even this great concept has a "down" side; doesn't everything these days? In any case, even though I've only yet glanced about the surface, I can tell there is more not just more substance to the content here, but also a greater ratio of users willing to invest time in the content of deeper substance (even the "haters" here are well versed, for the most part;). Anyway, thanks for the enlightenment into the nature of the structure around here. I look forward to growing as a content creator for the first time in my life and every bit of insight helps.
Stay Up/Stay Out
FatherHoodRich
" even this great concept has a "down" side"
Yep, unfortunately, it's called "human nature".
Welcome to the party. Join us at the Minnow Support Group.
Thanks for the reply. I accept your invite and I will do so a soon as I figure it out ;)
Everything you need should be here:
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Welcome @fatherhoodrich!
You can’t be censored here in terms of your words being totally removed. But if somebody with a lot of power takes a disliking to you and/or your viewpoint then they can make things hard. It’s not common, but it happens
Kind of like the real world 🤔
"It’s not common, but it happens"
Unfortunately, I'd say it's getting more common by the day.
Absolutely - if you are new here and you have no or limited SP, and if you feel strongly about something which others also feel strongly about, but with an opposing view to you, then you need to think carefully about whether it is worth raising your head above the parapet.
Just like in the real world...
Very true. Good rules for general living, too.
The problem with downvotes isn't the impact it has directly, it is the potential leverage effect. If a person with much SP downvotes posts of a specific author or with a specific tag, that cuts into curration rewards, so ppl will be less likely to upvote that person or posts with that tag in the future. That way, a hand full of $50,- worth downvotes from a whale could easily divert $1000,- or more away from a tag or popular author.
Incidentally, we have the same problem with curation in reverse. People dog-pile content for curation rewards, even if it isn't good.
There's no easy solution.
True.
But I don’t see it as a problem, it is just how it is. Everyone is free to use their voting power how they wish
From what I have seen so far in my 4 months or so here, the majority of cases where people have got their accounts into real trouble have been self-inflicted, or at least could have been fairly easily avoided or resolved
Unfortunately, most new users are not prepared with the diplomacy skills necessary to tell the difference.
Worse, there are Orcas (not naming them to prevent being shitlisted, but chances are you know who I'm referring to) telling people in YouTube videos things like they should upvote their own comments. With the big guys behaving in ways that would (and do) get the small guys into big trouble. I recently flagged a guy who I thought was a comment bot, then found out he was just a new user struggling to make sense of it all. You should see this video he made about his confusion of what seems to be a bug in the steemit web interface. It's easy to get the wrong first impressionafter having been exposed to bots and scammers, especially when non malicious intended behaviour is the result of watching the videos of gobshite orca's who blatenly tell their following to behave in ways they themselves only get away with because of the size of their vesting share.
I really wish we could do more to help people like Ad from the link above with making sense of it all before they reach the point of selfdistruction.
This is a natural result of our human psychology, I'm afraid.
There are downvotes that could be avoided. For example. If you dislike a post or don't agree with the OP, why not starting a debate where both parties can change their views and say goodbye shaking hands instead of straight downvoting for they don't have an actual argument to add in? Why?
These are fair questions.
Perhaps one of the most freeing realizations a person can have. There is a major difference between constructive criticism and genuine dislike. The only way to figure this out, in my experience, is to write a lot. When you post publicly on the Internet, your ego is exposed to the world. This gives you a chance to learn how to silence it - to learn how to hear and see reality as it is, to your best guess, and not just what your ego says.
Thankfully flagging is regulated by its cost in voting power, otherwise I do think that these flagging trains could be a lot worse than they are.
Thank you for posting, @lexiconical.
Thank you for a thoughtful comment.
I wish I had more to offer here, but the problems being discussed here have more or less driven me away from posting.
Downvoting is the only thing I hate about Steem. It is not used as it should be, which is to flag spam, hate posts and so on. Some people with lots of Steem Power just downvote because they don't like someone or an opinion. It's just a form of censorship by the more powerful.
I concur, it is used less than it should for the right things and too often for the wrong things.
This has been my experience interacting with the Reddit community.
Can't say I'm a big fan of that "community", either.
I believe flagging is a delicate function and should only be used when the user is clearly being negative towards the community (like insulting a lot, spamming 24/7 or just being very conflicting). This is why big users have a lot of responsibilities in choosing who they flag, and make sure to do it properly because this should not be taken light.
I agree, but unfortunately, this is not the current reality.
I think flagging sucks and if I was king of Steemit I'd flag it...
I'd be interested to see an experiment with no flagging at all. Let abuse be handled with the (formerly) exponential voting curve, or by dedicated Stinc employees with their large, unused stake.e
Yep if it was up to me flagging would be binned - I think it does more harm than good, and the main evil on Steemit is whales circle jerking all the reward pool, which flagging has totally failed to stop.
Steemit is a social network that take almost 95% of someone's time. It can't be compare to other social network in all aspect.
I think is okay and proper to down-vote, hide image,comment and post. Before an account is down-vote on steemit, there will be a numerous warning before action.
Unfortunately, this does not appear to be the case except sometimes:
"Before an account is down-vote on steemit, there will be a numerous warning before action."
Although:
"Steemit is a social network that take almost 95% of someone's time."
You got that part right.
No downvotes yet for me here on Steemit, but I'm pretty good at it on Reddit.
There must be a certain rite of passage that comes with your 1st downvote here. And don't rites of passage always kinda suck? Something to look unfavorably forward to. 😐
If you aren't taking any flak, you aren't flying over the target.
Alright. Let me get a little more stake in the game. I like to lose big. 😂
Feeling the curation love here. Last night it was @blocktrades that gave me a boost, now @gentlebot.
I had no idea a comment could still get an upvote on a post that's one month old.
I learn something everyday around here, and I get closer to that stake I mentioned. 😉
On Reddit, There's a lot of down-votes, more than 50%. Unless the Reddit post is extraordinary. so, on Steemit, the down-votes rate is lower than on Reddit. and we should take it in a good sport, because maybe we did something wrong that made us get flagged.
Yeah, that's kinda my point, although we're just not built for taking criticism well.
Well, that's the human's nature.
I think that down-votes are necessary for Steemit growth.
Thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter. I agree with you.
Downvotes wouldn't be necessary if we had the original exponential voting curve, as designed, and vote cancellation.
Everything what has some negative influence DOES hurt!
We could be proud and show from outside that we doesn’t care.... but inside we have to deal and we know we dont like it.,,, so it sure hurts
It's bad enough when it doesn't attack your financial bottom line, but on Steemit, it's even worse.
We are all sensitive, no two ways about it.
Part of our basic firmware.
fix the upvote bots, you will fix your issue. if people didnt make ridiculous prices for their posts, im thinking it wouldnt be such an issue.
Perhaps you missed the ongoing Haejin flag war, which has nothing to do with voting bots?
I don't see what voting bots have to do with users flagging posts manually that have no bot votes.
i saw people talking about it but i didnt understand it. how does the guy make so much money per post? i spose the majority of posts i get mad about are the ones that boost crappy posts. i dont like the fact that certain people who have the money can game the system with little effort. it's no different than the system we have now in real life
It's a fair conclusion to jump to.
Haejin appears to have caught the eye of a huge whale, ranchrelaxo, who votes on all his posts.
He has essentially been attacked for being successful.
well thats mean. but still someone said he earns $200k a day. is that true?
I think it's far, far less than that. My quick envelope math:
10 posts a day
$300 per post
$225 after curation, 112 SP, 112 SBD
112 SBD x 10 = 1120 + 112 SP = $1232 USD per post
$12,320 per day.
Bernie is also claiming he gets 6% of the rewards pool, which is a lie. It's 0.6%.
thanks. there's so much rumor about this. good to get other opinions
Yes, you are right. Every vote counts. Some people are really stingy with there votes even if they read a good article. Others downvote. What to do? Let's keep doing the good work!
I don't really get where you're going with this comment, but it seems like you tried...
Flagging is always good against the low quality posts or comments. This way improve the quality of steemit platform.
I see you've completely missed the point about how flagging is a complete failure of design and game theory application.
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I believe the bot is d answer to all this.
What bot? What the heck are you talking about?
I see.
Did you strain yourself when composing this masterpiece?
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16.68% @pushup from @lexiconical
Can't we all just GRIT along?
Wordplay aside, it would seem axiomatic that we cannot.
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amazing post
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I'm skeptical ...
I have to admit that I gave my vote for John Mellencamp- didn't get any further after that!