In response to the suggestion in this post : https://steemit.com/the-resistance/@the-resistance/grumpycat-weekly-report-thursday-05-april-2018
I have set a 50 STEEM bounty for the best explanations of the difference in term of brain-time cost, voting power cost and and results between flagging the wrong doers instead up-voting the non-wrong doers when only micro fraction are wrong does.
Bonus points if able to explain Grumpy-compliance in simpler terms and why it's not always possible to influence vote sellers behavior by flagging them directly.
Maybe if initial messaging and approach was less aggressive there would be less drama and goals would be reached? Not sure. But here is the new revised message.
But instead he decides to be a self imposed bully vigilante who is driving his own stake to the floor with his moronic counterproductive behavior, but I bet he feels like a really big man, in the middle of his poor, lonely life.
yeah, all the people supporting him here don't know that just this week, chumpyass flagged a widow, a zero day newbie in introduce yourself, and stole from a charity that feeds orphans and disadvantaged people around the world.
But all hail to the playground bully asshole chumpycat with the unimaginative stolen trademark for a name. Pathetic little piece of feces that he is.
about the widow - How would he know that she is a widow? For him she is a bidbot user.
Authentic zero day newbies do not use bidbots, and there is an even smaller chance for them to use bidbots that he prohibits.
On your charity post - You used the charity account to flag him.
That's exactly the point. Grumpycat doesn't know who he was downvoting. Maybe to some, bidding to bots is just for promoting their posts, but for most minnows, our main purpose is to profit because we need it personally. Not everyone knows his rules. He might have posted about his own rules many times, but not all of us are his followers. Most people here dont know. It would be acceptable if he would give a warning first, than downvoting someone right away. That's harsh and unfair.
Agree with all that you wrote.
I oppose grumpycat's rules.
Spammers should be punished in the most extreme measures possible, but bidbots should not be limited to less than 6 days.
Even if I thought they should be limited, I would not have acted in a similar way, and would not have downvoted good posts just to apply indirect pressure on bidbot owners while victimizing good content creators.
If anything he wastes VP that could be used to fight scammers and spammers.
This rule is not any better than a prohibition of self votes.
I do not agree with him, I just had answers for sircork.
Regarding a warning first, my remark for you is it will require grumpycat to implement a database for warned users.
Doable, but it costs.
How are you profiting from bid bots? Please explain your math to me, because I've tried to change 1s into 2s and it still isn't profitable at all
Exactly!I just wrote a very time consuming post and included an image that took me hours to produce! Very harsh and unfair, considering I did not send hundreds of SBD - only my meagre 2,5 SBD to help promote my post the way I SAW FIT!
Indeed I did, because I used all my accounts to flag him, but it was only a matter of "theater" given that he and his sock-puppets have around 300K in their combined wallets, not too many users can touch that in terms of damaging him. It was simply a protest flag. Since he has been robbing the charity posts of many users raising funds for @YouAreHOPE
Regardless of what I did. Any of you supporting the idea of self-elected bullies on this platform, and abiding by his arbitrary, hypocritical rules, don't really have to much going on in the way of critical thinking skills, in my humble opinion.
"Authentic zero day newbies do not use bidbots, and there is an even smaller chance for them to use bidbots that he prohibits."
Gotta agree with this observation. Sock-puppet, like Movietrailers is of ContentJunkie.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@tarazkp/a-look-at-transparency-and-hiding-beneath-the-surface
It's possible. There might be newbies who were already taught by those who invited them here to use bidbots. So maybe after making their first post, a friend sponsored a bot to boost his post or donated a few sbd to him to try bidding. That's just my opinion.😉
There have been cases where others have promoted the post, without the original authors knowledge, as they have seen it as a worthwhile project to support.
I'm not against the grumpycats system, but in these cases clearly it isn't perfect.
This post has received a $15.38 % upvote from @siditech thanks to: @stimialiti.
Here's a banana!
I am new, so I do not fully understand the history of how bit-bots managed to become such a detriment to the community, but your comments are on target - individual steemians also have the power to downvote posts or rule-abusers until a better compromise is reached. @fcpway
lol that is not what the revised message said.
Lol.
Congratulations! Your submission earned you 2.257 STEEM from this bounty. You have received 0.000 STEEM from the creator of the bounty and 2.257 STEEM from the community!
@geekgirl, I love this.
I made a post about it describing in length within the video, but here is the outline:
Politics on SteemIt
a. Who are politicians/Policy Actors?
b. What constitutes politics?
c. How Politics Works.
@GrumpyCat's Politics
a. Shitposting
b. Bidbot abuse
c. GrumpyCompliance
Why GrumpyCompliance Works
a. Bidbots are businesses: Profit Driven
b. No way to attack businesses without attacking revenue stream (i.e. YouTube Ad Boycotts)
c. Proven Effectiveness
Dispelling Rumors
a. Grumpy Cat is Promoting Own Bid Bot
b. Grumpy Cat is "Stealing"
c. Grumpy Cat is not a bully
Wrap-Up
a. Grumpy is not a bully, stealing profit motivated anon bernie.
b. Grumpy aims to improve the steemit community.
c. If you have been flagged, you aren't a "victim", you are a policy actor.
https://steemit.com/grumpycat/@jpolitical96/why-upvoting-randos-won-t-help-bid-bot-abuse
Congratulations! Your submission earned you 0.014 STEEM from this bounty. You have received 0.000 STEEM from the creator of the bounty and 0.014 STEEM from the community!
First of all: the post-age limit of 3.5 days was a great change. The only reason some people are against it, is simply out of the fact that they don't like to be told what to do - even if it's for the better.
You want to promote your post for visibility? 3.5 days is more than enough. Afterwards you'd primarily do it for monetary gain
Now - the reason why flagging the users of services and bid-bots which allow posts older than 3.5 days is the only viable way - is because users are less attracted of using those services.
Upvoting users who are doing the right thing by using services which only allow post-age of 3.5 days or less is completely useless as
1.) the amount of users is way higher - which makes the possibility of change a lot more difficult and 2.) the wrongdoers have no reason to change their behaviour and 3.) new users have no reason to avoid these services.
Which altogether would result in not achieving the desired effect of vote-services only accepting posts max. 3.5 days old.
But .. but flagging minnows is wrong?!
Yes. But what good is the word of a man if he goes back on it?
@grumpycat told everyone that he'd downvote anyone who uses services & bid-bots that accept bids & requests for posts that are older than 3.5 days.
Nothing more and nothing less.
And regarding the self-voting: it's his stake and downvoting isn't giving any rewards.
....I am the 2nd biggest reason for the utter shite that clogs the Trending pages of Steemit?
I guess those 44 times you bought votes from @smartmarket were just a coincidence.
@abh12345, you've just lost all my respect to you.
I'm not proud about the current status of trending and I'm doing my best to change that, even though the problem is a fundamental one of how trending works, but that you are such a little bitch for using my service while at the same time talking trash about it - that I wouldn't have guessed.
Look at the size of my bids. I don't abuse your bot, or any other bot. Did you ever see me on Trending?
How anyone would ever vote a bid-bot owner who calls other witnesses 'little bitches' as witness is beyond me.
This is the 3rd time I will ask you this question:
What would Steemit look like if everyone chose to delegate their stake to a bid-bot?
@abh12345
I don't see the point of answering a question which is completely ridiculous and purely made to shine a bad light on smartsteem's business model.
You've been passive aggressive against Smartsteem ever since - but if you believe that something is fundamentally wrong as in
2nd biggest reason for the utter shite that clogs the Trending pages of Steemit?- then don't use it.1.) I'm not a bid-bot owner - I'm a developer who believes in the importance of giving users the ability to promote their content while also making sure that abuse is stopped.
2.) I called you little-bitch, because that's what backstabbing people are to me. Again: don't use my service for over 2 months at least 44 times while telling people how bad it is for Steemit and how I shouldn't be voted for as witness.
And to make one thing clear: Smartsteem is clearly not the last thing I'll develop for Steem. The knowledge I gained through developing Smartsteem the last half a year is more than enough to develop something even more beneficial for Steem.
3.) So you're a witness now as well? Otherwise your statement doesn't make any sense.
I've used your page and bots periodically for various reasons, so don't bother to go look.
But you do need to answer the question, rather than evade it.
Why is my question 'completely ridiculous'? This is an option for everyone to do right now, today.
If an honest answer from you would 'shine a bad light on smartsteem's business model', what does that then tell you deep down?
As you own/manage/develop the 2nd largest bid-bot, then it is reasonable to suggest this bot is the 2nd biggest promoter of content to the Trending pages.
Who owns smartsteem/smartmarket? For simplicity, 'we' call them bid-bots, and not tools of 'a developer who believes in the importance of giving users the ability to promote their content while also making sure that abuse is stopped'.
How am I backstabbing you? This conversation is here for all to see, and soon it will be going out wider than just this thread. I have been 100% open and honest with you since thejohalfiles sold his stake to your service.
I have not yet told a single person that you shouldn't be voted as a witness. However, due to your remarks today I cannot promise this will always be the case.
It was an honour to be one of the first accounts on your Whitelist, and with a top '3 star' rating. Back then, the bid-bots were not draining the rewards pool so much. Things have changed now, manual curation has dropped off the charts, and low quality content rules the roost.
You can read the rest of my reply here:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@abh12345/what-would-steemit-look-like-if-everyone-chose-to-delegate-their-stake-to-a-bid-bot
That's 44 standard – not just double standard. :)
LOL humans attacking each other rather than dealing with the fundamental problem...
Yeah, this will end well.
So the obvious next stage of evolution on Steem will be bots attacking other bots. Automate all that manual work of actually reading and commenting and attacking on a personal level. Farm it out to your bot army.
At least that is what Obama thought when he killed more civilians with drones than any president before him
Wow, that segway took a wicked left turn. Sorry to anyone that sprained your neck as we took that corner on two wheels.
LOL
It might be like...
A blogging battleship greed type game.
"My shitpost with 4 bid bots, 34 spammer leech comments, no whale vote, 1 whale downvote"
"Miss... your shitpost sunk"
My asslickpost with 3 bid bots, 340 spammer leech comments, 3 well stroked whales, 200 angry shitcunts complaining about earnings"
"Hit! You dog.. you got a $609 payout"
Hey wait..
This is already the game....
Way to kiss the bully's ass, nice work. Oh and nice self voting. No irony in that here, at all!
hopefully he quickly realized. because that kissing was a very bad ass ever.
Hehe, Im sure this cat totally tasted like ass too, since he is the hole of one.
Basic bitch playground bully, nothing more, and everyone bending over for him is spineless.
even people who want to bend no longer know how bad the smell of cat's dirty ass. hope they quickly repent sir ...
oh, he likes to do that to the big guys, just read through here:
https://steemit.com/buildteam/@buildteam/buildteam-high-performance-rpc-full-node-cluster#@isnochys/re-buildteam-buildteam-high-performance-rpc-full-node-cluster-20180406t091603672z
There's a difference between recognizing a problem and simply being an arrogant prick.
I couldn't agree more
Your bottom dog is licking cat's ass.
Your bottom dog is licking cat's ass.
Your bottom dog is licking cat's ass.
Your bottom dog is licking cat's ass.
@sircork
Self-vote was simply to highlight the comment.
And since you can't bring a solid argument, you have to insult me. ok.
The solid argument is that you are supporting the concept of "warlords" and self-elected arbitrary and hypocritical assholes. Not a real impressive look for a witness on a decentralized chain. Looks to me like you support the idea of centralizing control to a random cat with an unimaginative stolen identity that upvotes himself for around a grand a day out of the reward pool, while making sociopathic random flags on innocent users, who basically, are operating within the confines of "code is law" here, and not breaking any chain rules.
So either admit you are largely responsible for enabling the bot owners and contributing to the shit that is the trending page by doing so, or take a look within at your motivations for defending a basic bitch playground bully.
Kissing the bully's ass so he won't target you as the enabler of bot owners is a valid argument. And you cannot defend it, so you whine about being insulted. Thicken your skin and defend your position maybe?
Thought so, no defense, but suppression and censorship.
You are a genuine piece of work, little wolf boy.
Hehe, now that I have caught up on the other commentary here, it looks like most people agree, little wolf, that you are pretty much not getting the public opinion you sought.
Because obvious things are obvious.
Watch your words!
Is that a threat? Please let that be a threat, that would make a fantastic post, all about how a top witness is colluding with a bully and threatening other witnesses or calling them little bitches.
Do what you want - but I don't have anymore time for this nonsense.
should you join @the-resistance to fight the bullies. do not support cats that rob orphan gifts. if you are given a gift by the cat then you have been eating the gift of robbery. you should be ashamed of it
I agree with your sentiment, @therealwolf. One thing though:
Let's get rid of this idea that flagging a minnow is inherently wrong. Let's use a simple syllogism.
I could go further and state how I believe it is good to flag facilitators of abuse as well.
That's just my opinion, though.
True. Regardless of Steempower - abuse is abuse.
By the way - you want to see something funny?
If that's the content I'm preventing with the 3.5 days rule - then I'm good!
Hahahaha...
I am just an observer and a reader.
Notwithstanding the separate debate about using bid bots. If a post is not worth promoting after 3.5 days then how much does it add to steem/the world? That is one of the issues of the 7 day payout rule. It reduces the incentive for material that lasts.
WRT promotion itself however - my understanding was that votes were intended to allow humans to weed out the good material where bots don't do that. They promote the material of people who can and want to pay for it.
Before the 3.5 days time-limit, abusers would buy upvotes for their post at around 6.5 days which would reduce the time services like steemcleaners would be able to remove rewards in abuse-cases.
Thank you for your generous upvote.
Do you know why steem stopped the 30 day payout they used to have?
I guess the truth is no matter what great thing is added or changed people will find a way to "abuse" it.
Is there not a global blacklist which all bots should use also, markymark them have one and some others I think but, a global one which can be updated in unison would make it all the more effective, if you are not using it then bottracker won't list you so that is a start at not getting visibility for the bots at least. Bottracker can also more visibily mark any non-compliant bots so new users are not tempted by the fuckers , if used then so be it. I vote guitar twat to be first on the global blacklist.
@penderis
I've thought about that as well, but it's a lot of work! Nevertheless, still thinking about it.
Guitar twat?
I like this post
for now maybe a public voting page to propose blacklists then a moderator team from the 3top bot can say yes no if yes it goes a weeks voting by lets say at least 200 users or all witnesses the list gets updated and all bots need to check that api before accepting bids. ... not sure if i would trust general users to vote though.
Thinking is just a simple api that will return a clean json reply with usernames and from there it can be expanded. Your bot can already merge markymarks list also, and with time it will be the norm.
Sorry to load the reply. But also implementing a value cap of how much something may worth, there surely is a limit to how much any post could possibly worth since the people are paying themselves, and assuming they are actually losing money on bids it still messes up visibility for legit posts. That is all sorry for the mess.
Blacklists and whitelists (with a fair and transparent rating system - a panel of raters that are selected in a transparent process). That's more like it! innocent until proven guilty.
I don't see a strong argument for limiting the time I should promote my post or upvote my own post for that matter. you're suggesting that people who promote late, are also spammers or putting out shoddy content for profit. If they make profit that way, that's their choice. Who is to say what is shoddy content? The answer is - everyone gets to say. But to allow, encourage and argue for bullying by powerful accounts which don't bother to even manually evaluate the content - merely slap a flag on it based on some vague theory? How can anyone support that approach? This sort of bullying is exactly the culture one wants to work against. To suggest that it is all right to grant a few people the right to limit the choices that other make, it is just disappointing to hear. I can never agree with it.
Steemit allows me to vote on posts until 6 days 11 hours or more. What about self-upvotes on the last day? Of course I can do it too. You can't fight junk appearing on the platform by going about flagging people who choose a business model which you don't agree with. It is just wrong. Let people flag posts as they wish, megalomaniacs included. But people will continue to resist being bullied by hypocrytes who also self-upvote their own spammy comments more often than they curate good content (be that content of their own or by others).
I am very disappointed to see steemmarket supporting such a weak idea as bullying. You guys have a whitelist, you evaluate the quality of content. These are good things to do. I hope to see you standing up against this sort of abuse or working against the problems of trending trash in meaningful, constructive ways; not this kjind of self-agrandizement by a tyrant.
Agreed, who to say what is what, be it spam or not, be it quality posts or not, be it ads or not, be it good or not, be it free speech or not, be it hate speech or not, be it this thing or that thing, etc, like you are saying, I agree, it depends on the systems we want more so, be it mob-ruling democracies or not, be it constitutional, representative, republics or not, be it a voting system which is what Steemit has it seems in some ways or to some extent, and we the people can maybe decide, maybe through voting, together, maybe, what we like and dislike, and that is capitalism, and free speech includes hate speech and spam and ads and bots and many things as included in the generalization of it all and spam can be defined differently by different people too of course. Let the free markets decide. If you like something, upvote it. That is what I do. And I may become a big whale someday. That is capitalism. Some can downvote too but I don't flag. I just upvote and stuff. Thanks for sharing, hehe. I'm Oatmeal Joey Arnold. You can call me Joey.
Nice to know you, Joey. It all seems so simple to me. Ad decentralised systems are all about leaving every person the rights - preventing centralised control. This argument about keeping spam etc out sounds a lot like the argument of stripping our rights to privacy and other freedoms, in the name of the fight against terror. These trolls have to be nipped in the bud and only collective awareness and resistance will end it all.
Remain vigilant. Keep our eyes on the ball, even when we organise, lest those tendencies find their way into our own efforts as well.
You are right about the content on here. Everyone should have a right to say what they want. However, everyone else has the right to agree or disagree with it. I tend to take a logical leaning, and here is the rub: if a flag is considered censorship, then a vote must be considered permission. The opposite of voting is not refraining from voting. It is flagging.
The fact is, the powerful and wealthy have always been in charge of media and communication. Steemit, regardless of its hands-off approach to content, is not going to be any different in this regard. Who gets to decide what trends and what doesn't on this platform? Stripped down, this would be the powerful and wealthy.
If the most influential people on steemit thought spam was cool, then we'd see a lot more of it. If they thought it wasn't, then it would get voted off the island. Here, it appears to be somewhere in the middle.
In the case of bot-votes, trending is a purchased conglomeration of votes meant to mimic the wealthy. And this is a middle ground that levels the playing field somewhat. However, the more powerful users can (and will) determine how these play out. They could just as easily downvote all bot votes. And they don't, largely because some of them are the ones profiting from them in the long run, partly because some of them believe these are a great boost for minnows.
Simply put, the ones who decide what trends and doesn't, whether it's in the news, on the radio, on social media, or on this blockchain--are the powerful and wealthy, with few outliers. But this is the most common human social construct.
In the case of downvoting a post from a bot-vote over 3.5 days, these are the rules someone with power made up, for reasons they believe are meant to shape the platform in a positive way. Take it or leave it. Or fight it. But those are the rules. You know the risks and so does everyone else. When you are wealthy and powerful, you can decide what the rules are. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying, that's how it is.
On another capitalist note, if we were to take an Atlas Shrugged approach and allow spam and crappy content take all the rewards and trend, then this platform would self-obliterate on its own and it would need no help from whales.
The only reason spammers have any ounce of life at all on here is because there is good content and good investment into this community to begin with. If all of the good guys left, the spammers and greedy self-perpetuating whales would be like leaches sucking scum off the bottom of a dried up lake.
I am just saying, actions like a @grumpycat downvoate, as unpopular as they may seem, do theoretically prolong the life and sustainability of the platform. From an investment standpoint, bot-votes longer than 3.5 days old are fiscally and statistically detrimental to the platform, due to the nature of the bids they tend to engender, the content they regularly promote, and the bad humor they create in new users.
The overwhelming number of users who swoop in on the 11th hour of day 6 to win the bid on poorly written and promotional posts are just as guilty of pilfering as another user is of downvoting their pilfer. Their bids 1) do nothing for the life and sustainability of the platform, 2) take advantage of unsuspecting new users who otherwise think their bot bid is worth something, 3) and their content and disingenuous behavior degrade the value of STEEM.
But other than that, they're fantastic. :0)
The only reason that plagiarism is cared about here is because steem inc wants people to, because they don't want to deal with cease and desist letters or other copyright issues. But the funny thing is that rehashed content and memes are what people on other social media enjoy seeing, so this only hurts the value of the platform for content consumers.
What a mess this platform has become. The CEO himself hasn't bothered posting on here in over a month. What does that suggest about the future of this place?
I see almost daily developmental updates about EOS and other up and coming blockchain projects. Smart Media Tokens? Oh yeah, we have a white paper to reference from September without further insight on the roll out status. As long as Steemit is considered the brand face of Steem, this blockchain will continue to lose market share to more dedicated dev teams.
Grumpy and others touting self-proclaimed rules of engagement embody the Animal Farm atmosphere that has run amok on this site. At first I thought Grumpy's initiative was admirable, considering the lack of guidance from Steemit Inc on the issue of voting abuse. Yet a more in depth look reveals that he himself engages in extensive self-voting, as @sircork has pointed out. It's hypocrisy, full stop. Anyone not calling it out for what it is also is a hypocrite.
And anyone supporting this nonsense contributes to the madness - it's easy to pick on the small fish, but if engagement drops further, all you're left with is a silo of sanctimonious enforcers of arbitrarily designated laws that controvert the very code that the platform was constructed upon.
Address the code and apply reform across the board equitably to everyone. Targeting users on a whim is not the way to go about encouraging a systemic quality culture. The apparent indifference of the top Witnesses to all of this, despite the oft discussed issues plaguing Steem, is inexcusable.
Charity Bot, you are right. And the whole thing about what is and is not copyrighted, patented, protected, reserved, covered under fair use, what is in the public domain, what is copy right, what is copy left, what is open source, and everything else, is and is not sometimes problematic in so many ways depending on the countries you are in and depending on many factors and I heard that Walt Disney stole some ideas or drawing, allegedly, from others that worked in him around the 1920's and Disney probably stole it and copyrighted it and that means the other man could not use his own stuff and there are thousands of these stories were copyrights were actually stolen in the first time to protect the robbers and not the actual creators as the original creators are not always able to protect and copyright their work and fair use for parodies and commentaries and other things is another issue as we have Weird Al and others and that is another thing to consider and the public domain thing is another thing to consider also. All of this is very complex and more complex than most people think as it goes both ways in so many ways in the risk and in the pros and the cons of all the laws just like how taxes have problems and welfare has problems too.
No way. Users facing arbitrary attacks from heavily armed terrorists (a grumpycat with a fat wallet is a "gun" here) will not use this platform.
In no way is basic bitch playground bullying for ANY reason acceptable, and will not in ANY way , "prolong the platform"
I don't know. If we could determine whether it was just basic bitch bullying, I'd say I agreed with you. But I don't know if it is.
Anyone could argue that a downvote to an innocent bystander might be intrinsically bullying, outstanding facts aside. However, the real question may not be about the downvoting in itself. It appears to be about what this specific type of downvoting is meant to accomplish, what it is actually accomplishing, and whether that is worth the casualties it may incur.
Those who think the purpose is a worthy one will justify the behavior. Those who think it is not will crucify the behavior. The kind of downvoting, albeit unfair to some, takes an approach that is not a respecter of persons, but an all-or-nothing word to the wise: "Don't use bots after 3.5 days, no matter who you are. They need to be shut down."
Frankly, I'd be more interested in seeing the short term and long term fiscal impact on both the "last-minute-bot-vote-pilfering-from-babies-and-kittens," and the "arbitrary attacks from heavily armed terrorist @grumpycat downvotes," as there are casualties on both sides.
Users facing arbitrary attacks will not likely use this platform. Neither will users who are randomly pilfered out of a purchased bot-vote. The question is, which users are we deterring more of over the long term: those who contribute to the success of the platform, or those who contribute to the failure of it?
As a business model, I'd be more likely to choose the one that retained users who contributed to the long term success of the platform.
As a side note, the system that attracts users with integrity and grit is generally a system that has integrity and grit. Maybe we just sit and see which one holds out...
Agreed, so much has been decided, influenced, managed, controlled, governed, historically, culturally, globally, by the wealthy, basically, generally, and Steemit basically has that, absolutely, or to some extent, and I like that, and we also have some ability to influence each other and to compete to become wealthy as well, eventually in the long-run, as we go up ladders to compete with whales on Steemit and everything. I promote freedoms for better and for worse. If we do not like @GrumpyCat, we may try to Downvote Cat, talk about it more, take actions maybe. Those are our freedoms perhaps. And it is also Cat's freedom to do stuff be it good or bad as the wealthy makes up the rules so to speak like you said. For me, I try to ignore it. I don't downvote people. But I don't want to stop others from making their own choices. I try to focus my time on things I like as much as I can instead of crying about things I do not like. Thanks for writing. :)
Agreed, that is freedom, for better or for worse, for the good people and for the bad people as opposed to subjective rules applied only sometimes to some people at certain times and so on and so forth as that is not what this decentralized system is really all about basically, potentially, ultimately, like you are saying, and it is our job to talk about all of this more and more and to raise awareness of stuff, all kinds of things, good things and bad things, and people too, and we can talk about Cat for example, and we can come together and downvote Cat or whatever as those are our choices perhaps. I am not going after Cat. I do not care what the cat does. The cat has freedoms. I respect those freedoms even if Cat is doing bad or whatever the case may be. I am focused on spending time around people and things I like. I upvote. I do not downvote, haha. Like smoking. I do not smoke. Maybe a store will sell cigarettes. Yes. To make money. And Grumpy Cat has the freedom to buy cigarettes even if that is bad. I will not buy any. But I will let Cat exercise freedom, freewill. Amen.
Minnows self voting isn't giving much of any rewards either. When they buy votes, they are doing so with their stake. The vote sellers, likewise, are also using their stake. I wouldn't be surprised if grumpy cat was a vote seller himself, or a group of them. That would explain his incentive.
The fact of the matter is, grumpy often upvotes himself on the last day. If you're saying that's ok, then minnows doing the same is also ok. In fact, minnows buying votes are also taking on risk which he is not.
Additionally, being a capitulating service, you have a vested interest in supporting his activities. By strongarming customers, he is decreasing your competition.
The posts on the trending page upvoted by bidbots don't deserve to be there!
That's what the real problem is, most of the people think that the low-quality posts dominate the trending page and they don't deserve to be there.
Now, as the founder and developer of the smartsteem, I know that you can't check each and every post upvoted by your service, and I definitely know that you want to make steemit a better place and help people here.
So, instead of concentrating on all the users, how about you concentrate on the users bidding for big upvotes?
I mean nobody cares about if anyone gets 1$ upvote from any bid bot( small abusers can be handled easily by making guidelines and rules, blacklisting) but the ones who make it to the trending or hot page, everyone has got eyes on them, and it is your service that will be held responsible for taking them to the top of hot/trending level.
So if you check all the users who bid big( which would be about 1 or 2 in every 2.4 hours, that makes a maximum of 10-12 posts a day), you can considerably improve the quality of posts upvoted by your service that makes it to the trending page
You said it yourself that it took more than half a year for you to develop smartsteem, now I know that you don't want it to end in a way that people will remember it as a service that supported abusers. A service hated by a lot of people.
The whole thing depends upon how inclined you are to find a solution to improve the quality of posts upvoted by your service. That will help everyone, the investors, users. And more people will support the users in future if their post quality is good, that makes a long-term benefit for the user for the one-time investment, rendering your services more useful.
In the end, I believe that this is quite an opportunity for your service to make this a better place not just for the content creators, but for content absorbers too, as of now, most people create content, very few read it.
now I know that you don't want it to end in a way that people will remember it as a service that supported abusers. A service hated by a lot of people.
and yet here we are...
yepp, here we are...
Arent we doing everything for monetary gain??
No you are here to fall in line with those who have existed here long enough to believe their own bullshit that their rules is what you should obey. BUT.. only you and those at your level.
The ones higher up and with enough SP ... set different rules for themselves.
Steemit has a long future......
That's kinda what I thought too.
Lexiconical approves of this comment.
PS - Watch out with statements of the obvious in reward-pool arguments...you'll get a pie flung at your head.
I'm used to worse. 😸
Good
I can have many articles that I may want to post all on the same day. I could have ten or more posts that I can work on and I've been writing over twenty years and I can spend days on it. And there is no way to know how many different things that can be posted on the same day. I love writing about politics, religion, science, education, entertainment, technology, Bitcoin, cats, travel, my time in Vietnam, gardening, history, video games, films, videos, photos, comedy, and more, hehe. Thanks for sharing, hehe. I'm Oatmeal Joey Arnold. You can call me Joey.
What does this have to do with flagging a bot-vote after 3.5 days?
You can publish many books or videos or posts or articles on the same day and they all can have great quality because they can all be in the making for weeks or longer and there should be no limit to how many comments and posts are to be posted and published on Steemit as the quality of the posts and comments depends on many factors and many things.
Observe, everyone, the bot enabler and cat colluder downvoting truthful comments that expose the truth about him.
Weak. So incredibly weak.
I think that everyone has a different opinion and that's the good thing about steemit that we can share it without any commitment
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Your bottom dog is licking cat's ass.
lol... pretty much
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I don't understand why, but thanks.
A bounty of 50.000 STEEM has been set on this post by @madpuppy! You can read how they work here.
Obviously
You spend an awful lot of time on "when only micro fraction are wrong does"
Feel like an idiot yet? Because you look like one to everyone else.
this is great :)
what is great?, did you even read the post? :)
I can't speak for the person above however I, personally, thought it was great.... primarily because we have two opposing ideas..... and it's obviously causing people to talk. I look at it as a positive. I could be very wrong however. I am new and am still learning. I any case I hope you have a great day. All my love to you and all of yours.
Comments like yours is what make this a great place to be!
I think you are right on this :)
Thinking differently is essential to our evolution, also share and care for others :)
There is many to be learn, i am also new and constantly learning :)
Thank you for your comment, nice from your part!
Thank you very much!
hugs and blessings!
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Humans enjoy positives things
A downvote is negative
A downvote war spiral is negative for steem
If you don't like the trending page, scroll. Go on another page.
People risked their life to cross the Berlin wall.
They cross all Africa without a penny to escape abusive powers.
They cross the Mediterranean sea to escape their country's nocive control.
People want to escape tyranny.
We don't want people to escape steem
We don't want your dominance @grumpycat
You don't answer yourself to @the-resistance.
You have to pay others to come with an answer.
Don't you have any argument you could expose us by yourself? That seems an emotional-backed behavior, rather than a rational judgment.
Spread love ❤️ not flags ☣️
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Since the main approach seems to be to stop the draining of the reward pool by people using voting-bots for pure profit instead of getting visibility (the noble use-case for votebots in the eyes of many), upvoting the ones who don't use them is not helping the problem in any way.
Flagging those who use bid-bots solely to drain the reward pool will give money back into the reward pool. Rewarding others for not using the bots will not put money back it the reward pool - but even take more money out of it.
Rewarding others will also not stop the abusers! - Why would it? I won't stop robbing a bank just because the bank starts to give money to homeless who beg for it as well.
Of course it also takes way more brain-power to manually curate good content than to flag the use of abusive stuff following a simple but effective script. And it's also more fair - the script most likely works on a random basis - manual curation would be biased by Grumpie's personal opinion.
Summed up, I think the proposal to upvote others is completely useless for accomplishing what @grumpycat wants to accomplish. Giving away money to some non-criminals will also not stop thieves from stealing in the real world. Why would it?
In the end, upvoting others instead of flagging would even have the reverse effect since more people would be using the abuse-usable-services again if they don't fear the flaggs.
Neglecting the abusers will only increase the amount of spam and trash here. As if there was any scarcity of abusers that to neglect them and let them freely abuse the system, thus motivating more and more people to join abusers as there will be no action against them.
It will lead to total chaos.
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Wait...there's an xxxbot?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂# THAT'S FUNNY!!! #
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I think you should flag all the bots, vote selling is reward pool rape.
It only came about after @dan got ran off, he knew what would happen, that is why he put the n2 in the code in the first place.
What he failed to do was put a 100mv soft limit in place to make the game attractive to the average users.
I think you should downvote everybody that gets a delegation of more than 100mv because 93% of newbs tell us to get bent over the whales sucking up all the rewards.
Anybody with more than 100mv in stake are going to be best served by making the game attractive to minnows so that we can get the millions to put in 100usd each.
Whether that is downvoting the rapists or abstaining from voting to avoid overwhelming the minnows in the vote pool math.
It is up to the whales to make the game attractive to the many.
When the masses park their paychecks in steem before paying their bills the whales will be in a position to not crash the price by selling.
That isnt going to happen with 800k former users telling their friends not to bother with steem because only the insiders stand a chance at getting rewards.
93% of new users tell us to get bent because 10 voters decide where 30% of the rewards go day after day after day.
Can you downvote the top 50 most powerful voters, too?
When the top 10 out of 65k daily users decide where 30% of rewards go that is not the recipe for mass adoption, as demonstrated by the 800k dead accounts.
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Thank you very much!
I honestly thought this was over. Why is this not over?
Okay i will give it a shot.
Brain-time cost: @grumpycat is too lazy to be nice.
Voting power cost: @grumpycat spends a lot of time measuring his downvotes in order to give him the best selfvotes. He likes masturbating in public.
Results: He is right in that people remember punishment more than nourishment. His current flag campaign would end if bots were set to reject posts after 3.5 days. As there would be no infractions. Except he wont be satisfied with that. Why? Clearly @grumpycat is very bored and lonely not to mention a work aholic? Idk.
Heres my idea/solution: ;)
Give me your delegation. I will try out the positive rewards campaign and send you 80% of the curation profits. I will upvote 10 posts per day of verified and active users. This will most likely include many of the people you flagged. If you give me a weekly theme i will uovote as per your theme and send you your cut at the end of every week. Or, you can setup a proxy and i will upvote through posting keys and not handle money at all. If you appreciate my efforts, you can reward me. Test it for a month. See if bidbot misuse goes down.
Otherwise, be a good kitty wont you?
this is fking awesome! :D
Indeed I hope this war will be over one day. Love this Pic, nice work :)
For the first time since I met you, I have to salute you. Well said, Lima.
Would read again.
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Bahaaaa thanks @steem-bounty ! Lol lemme take thst to the bank 😂
Finally @grumpycat did something great!! Good work @grumpycat. Gc followed the whole report and look he started a bounty, rewarding users.
Amazing work #Resist, finally Gc complied with Resist bounty proposal. Nice work everyone at Resist. Nice work @grumpycat. Good to see that every side is using their intelligence and bringing a change. Hats off to you @grumpycat!!
Love
You...uh...don't know wtf is going on here, do you?
After reading the post, I came to know that how good this cat is. Many bid bots owner complied with grump policy but first time I saw that cat is complying with a bounty proposals. So it's nice to see that big user like grumpy cat actually hears the thoughts of small minnows with practical approach. That's why I love steemit. That's all I know @lexiconical
He knows. He's actually pretty smart, and very very fucking funny at making solid memes or as you know I prefer to call them steemes. :D
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Simple terms? Games theory:
If platform abusers doesn't have any punish for wrong-doing in the system, their incentive will be to keep abusing it, generating a small pool of winners and a big ocean of losers (in this case, the entire platform).
Overpromoted (overpaid) content that brings no value, must be flagged by the ENTIRE community, not just by the grumpy cat.
And lets be honest, he is funny.
D.
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Ok, thanks ;)
Wow!
Okay Brain time cost : A lot . Scouring through the plagiarists, the down right weirdos and the wth were you thinking posts, it takes time and patience.
Voting Power Cost : If the carrot approach isn't working, the stick approach will.
Downvoting and flagging help bring people who are abusing the system to the notice of others.
Although I do believe that if you don't have the time, setup a team to curate for you.
Carrot and stick can co-exist
Yes, you can't expect things to be hunky-dory and forget that people will take advantage of the system.
I'm neutral about your methods but i can request you again to setup a
team like curie or OCD to help people who don't use bid bots.
You'll get curation rewards and prove your point.
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I did not know GrumpyCat was on SteemIt. Following.
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Now I am confused! How many Grumpy Cats are there?!
nice idea, @ grumpycat
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Ohh i'm much glad and confident to place a comment on @grumpycat's post this time..
"Braintime and voting power cost and results between flagging the wrong doers instead of up-voting the non-wrong doers"
Flagging the wrong doers only leaves one with a tension in the head - trying to scold the bad guys where in fact hundreds are out there doing same, and tens springing forth every days. I get crazy when i try to chase a fly and more are showing up.
However, It's a waste of resources putting a downvote/flag on the bad guy where in fact, same vote is needed to support the good guy. Flagging takes same voting power and same recharge time as putting an up-vote.
The result is simply a fractional effect as it does not stop the activities of the wrong doers since its a decentralised atmosphere and the mentality is that "I'm an investor and so i want a good profit on my investments". Few care about the world around them. They keep waxing stronger rather than culmination. Non-wrong doers struggles to grow. They need it most.
Best way to culminate the bad guys is to give attention for the good guys. Upvoting the non-wrong doers will undoubtedly and indirectly reduce the activities of the counterparts as soon as the bid bots users begin to see the reason for them to quit.
GRUMPYCAT-COMPLIANCE: I'm a grumpycat. I seem to appear complaining too much and get upset easily. I chose to be so because people couldn't see the madness in act of selling votes.
But @grumpycat, do you know that these bots are numerous and are get more delegations daily? This is like a one man trying to invade an alien's planet. This might be suicidal. Rather, concentrate on building a better community where the worth of his power would be felt.
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Pretty much cool if they could see that.
Mao was an evil dictator and a mass murder, but he got one thing right:
"Punish one, teach a hundred."
This is what @grumpycat is doing and it works.
Mao didn't say "Reward 100, teach one, " because he knew it won't work.
Yah, I think that just about sums it up.
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In the real world I totally agree. But here too many people are gaming the system, which hurts the long time growth perspectives of this platform
I wish there would be another way to stop people gaming the system, but I don’t see another way.
I don't get why you should waste your time with this, using bots is a method of advertisement that should be used as the post is posted but the community overall has decided that a 3.5 day window is still ok for bot votes but most of the people that get flagged by you is for upvoted trash content by hundreds of dollars or people that use bots on the 6th day to rape the reward pool right?
If i had to write a short explanation for them it would be this: Community consensus, the community overall agrees to a certain extend that 3.5 days is the deadline for bot votes and if you are doing bot votes on the last day you are raping the reward pool also your proposal doesn't work because if you reward the people for behaving like they are supposed to but don't punish the people misbehaving, more people will join them in the misbehavior.
Simply put, the proposal is kind of dumb, you will end up rewarding 2 people for good posts but then a few thousand misbehaving users will continue to vote themselves on the 6th day if they see no punishment for their behavior.
Edit: Are they even worth wasting your time on? Grumpy compliance is already pretty easy to follow anyways, its basically an easy guide in how to not be a steemdick.
I believe that you made a very good summary here!
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Its good
flaggeddid not add any value to the topic, pure spamCongratulations! Your submission earned you 0.015 STEEM from this bounty. You have received 0.000 STEEM from the creator of the bounty and 0.015 STEEM from the community!
well to. answer you questions in two sentences i wil say
1,Grumpycat wanted everyone to obey the reward system but everyone wants to reap it amd disobey.
2 grumpycat tries his best to make them comply to the steem reward rule but his self vote is raping also the reward pool and guilty as charge
so every one has sinned against the steem blockchain, we all sinners
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Promoting useless content with bidbot and making money is always unwanted. In our society we need police station and army for our own protection from corruption. @grumpycat is like a police officer in Steemit Community. People will fear for being flagged by @grumpycat and
because of @grumpycat they never attempt to use bidbot for their useless content.
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Why in the hell are ANY of you supporting in any conceivable way, a self elected playground bully who is single handedly bringing some of the worst visibility to this platform I have seen yet.
Would you in any way entertain this guy if he was terrorizing the children on your local playground because they didn't play by his made-up-in-his-fat-head rules?
Are you all losing your minds?
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"A negative punishment in which a positive stimulus is taken away, keep the minnows at bay"?
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Incorrect Profile
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Flaging posts is nothing, better report them in "steemabuse", in one-two weeks you will earn some SP. From there i earn more of my SP.
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Nice
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Seriously it is a very complicated topic. i am observing these wars from the beginning, but as I am new here dont have really much to say. Some things are right and wrong in the same time. But I hope that these wars come to an end soon. They effect the reputation of the platform and make many newbies confused. Somehow I feel that the rich people are getting richer and the Minnows not getting any chance here :(
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Stop delegating votes to bots.
Stop this process, and the issue disappears.
@fcpway
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Oh its amazing competition I also join this
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nice...........
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Im the beginner of the steemit and i enjoy the post upvote likes and comments replyetc all.
Thanks for the post god bless you
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I voted your post
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What a proposal
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Can u help me... Give me some advise... How can i make my post more nice
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You know what i think about your post ?
it deserves a big upvote
here you go
interesting initiative. i like it, and hope it catches on.
You got a 19.59% upvote from @postpromoter courtesy of @madpuppy!
Want to promote your posts too? Check out the Steem Bot Tracker website for more info. If you would like to support the development of @postpromoter and the bot tracker please vote for @yabapmatt for witness!
LOL
I support your this proposal. I think it will help community in more better way. I just explained my fears in this post. I ended up my talk with a question on Quality vs Bots war. I hope you will leave me your feedback in this post as it matters alot to me. Lookinng forward to it
Grumpy-compliance in simpler terms:
Bending over for an ASSHOLLLEEEEE basic bitch bully with a stolen identity?
Steem economics: YOU ARE LOSING ALL YOUR MONEY DAY BY DAY chumpy cat
Brain-Time: Costs you nothing, because you don't have one.
Voting power: You use it either way, dumb ass.
Results: Either way everyone thinks you are an idiot.
See how easy all that was?
You are nothing but lonely, sad, empty little tiny TOOL.
Even though I don't agree with all of his methods - at least he seems to prefer thinking longterm and tries to enforce changes he thinks will be beneficial longterm. Others just don't give a fuck, delegate to those bots and go for max short-term profits. Guess what group of whales I prefer to have ;)
Your comment makes you look little and sad - not OP ;)
Perhaps you are unaware of his $1000 a day self voting hypocrisy, perhaps you are not aware he flags random innocent users who never heard of this simpleton playground bully, perhaps you are not aware of the new users, widows, and charities he has stolen from.
For that I forgive you, but if you are not actively pissed off about the tool cat, then you probably are operating on only partial information about this scenario.
Hey, nice post ! I like your content. Keep up the good work! It's always nice to see good content here on Steemit! Congratulations
Starting from the base, @grumpycat, that we are talking about your stake, that it is big but limited, and that you are free to use it as you wish.
If you flag people who use the bots you don't like, you force the bots to restrict their time limit, in order not to lose clients to the competition. Because, obviously, users will prefer "safer", complying bots to bid to. It has a bigger impact because, in time, fewer people will be using those non-complying bots, so one person you flag will have a big effect because the numbers of them will be smaller every time and so, the chance of getting a flag gets bigger. Less VP necessary, less brain-time, more impact.
If you reward users who prefer the bots you like, you invite the people to use those bots. But as more people will be using them, because of the invitation, the chances of winning will be getting smaller and smaller. You can't reward everyone! So, you would have to select and curate more every time. And, because the bots that don't adjust their time limit would not be affected, they will still be a majority, and people will still bid on them, along with the others. So, more VP needed, more brain-time, and the impact will be minimum.
Grumpy-compliance is a term coined by @grumpycat to define bidbots that restrict the time of the posts they can be used to upvote to 3.5 days max.
If people use bidbots to upvote their own posts on the last minute (Or even the last of the seven days period), they restrict the time the rest of the community have to flag them if they see fit. So, it could be seen as if they get a big bunch of rewards from the pool in an unfair way, no matter the quality of their content.
Grumpy established that, if he flags the bots, the effect will be temporary because the bidbots are constantly getting money (And their owners, as a collective, have far more SP than Grumpycat to recover themselves). But if he flags bidders, the effect will be permanent, because people will prefer to use "safer" bidbots and the rest of the bidbots will be forced to comply because of the competition.
So, he decided to flag users with the best content using non-compliant bidbots, even if they use them within the 3.5 days limit, in order to get the best impact and exposure with the minimum VP and brain-time cost. Which has been controversial, for putting it mildly.
I don't like it a bit, BTW. I think it is unfair and it sucks. But I am forced to admit it is actually working.
Fisrt, I think he ( you @grumpycat ) wanted to control this platform from being flooded with none organic commenter and promoter and trying to have a balance and fair system. Not too many bionic but cut those organic aka people who doesn't have the real deal to have their comments to exist in a good contents with reliable informations and genuine articles. In the same time the bionic or the bots are still needed to dig an old hidden treasure to be expose once more because when some old treasure been stacked with millions layers of new articles or datas they tense to be forgotten but still useable as a guide. That is the far best of my understanding about the issue discussed. Please accept my apology if my comment is not related to the topic. one ( he / @the-resistance ) says just let it be free no limit or strict the other ( you @grumpycat ) says no! we should put some limit of the freedom if we want to maintain the system so both play the important roles for the Steemers
Wow, seems like that would need a very long and clear explanation. 50 SBD is a good number though so I guess it's not bad to give it a try.