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RE: HF20 Update: Restoring Continuity

in #steem6 years ago

I'm afraid you still don't get it.... You think its off by a factor of 10x... Not even close. Yes you will appease a few people that will be able to vote and comment, but you have locked out people for 5 days.. now you are going to make that 2 day? come on, wake up

Also if you continue to keep in the fact that people "lose something (anything) by commenting" then you truly have no concept of what a "social network" is. You WANT people to communicate and comment. But if you take anything away from them then they will just not do it...

What the hell kind of social platform will you have when people are trained to NOT COMMENT???

I hope @abh12345 gets a chance to see this and weigh in with you all at the Steemfest.... That is one guy that "gets it" and understands that you try to "encourage" people to comment, not charge them for it...

I won't post the banner that is flying around the back alleys making fun of you all, but the bottom line is your new tagline will be "The Anti-Social Network" if you don't change your course.

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I totally get you. I used to enjoy commenting on other people's posts but just by doing this i know I will be charged/taxed, what's the point? I haven't earned anything since i joined, just friendships along the way because I exchanged comments with them. I Will just go back to wordpress where I won't be charged for commenting. Now I think i am losing confidence on Steemit.

I understand your point and sad that it is coming to this... I will say that the people at Steemit (the big boys) have been telling me for the last 2 days not to worry that it will all get fixed and it won't be a problem. And I sincerely hope so.

I do know that they did a "fix" and a lot of people that were unable to do anything can now post and comment... So I don't know if this whole thing was just a mistake, an issue with design, or simply something they realized their error and fixed based on the reaction. In any case, I'm happy to hear that people are connecting again and as long as they don't repeat such a stupid policy, then I'll stay a little longer and hope for the best!

It is nice to meet you @evlachsblog and I appreciate your comment and hope you stick around to see how it turns out too :)

It's nice to meet you, too, @davemccoy. I would love to stick around, and like you said, I also hope it was just a stupid mistake. I didn't use to worry about looking at "RC status" or mana... whatever those are. Until now, I am completely clueless what those terminologies mean. I read all the comments on this post, and your comment was the simplest and most comprehensible amongst all. You represented the rest of us, who have little to no knowledge of this platform, but are just here on Steemit, either to generate a little bit of income or just love to write and connecting with people.

I'm happy to hear your kind words and definitely happy to meet you too :)

I think they made some big progress with this last update so hopefully it isn't going to affect us nearly as much as it was. I do think they might have heard out message because that is the fastest I have ever seen them make a "fix" :P

Have a wonderful weekend! And again nice to meet you :)

That's good to know that they fixed the issue. It wouldn't be an ideal community if most of us are restrained to voice out our opinions or feedback and we have limited means to comment on other people's posts.

Have a good weekend, too, and hope you have a good week ahead!

Hi Dave

I think this is a step in the right direction, and would rather see incremental rises in RCs like this, rather than a patch that puts us no better off (with regards to cutting spam) than we were before. I suspect there could be more increases to come as a balance is found.

When the pumpkin seeds settle, it might be an idea to round up the 'good' red fish struggling to breath and find dolpins/orca's willing to delegate to them so they can transact as before. I'm going to hold off on this until Steemit inc have settled on parameters.

Cheers!

Asher, I think the world of you and think you are one of the most amazing people I know. I think the way you've sacrificed to help others is something that will pay you more than money when you reach my age and realize how your life has been lived.

Having said that.

I think they are dead wrong on "taxing" "charging" "applying" or whatever term is used to depleting the one resource that is needed to comment and communicate. I am even bothering to point it out to you for one important reason, I think you have the size and influence to maybe change it.

If you don't "get it", they won't get it. That I can guarantee you.

So I know you might not want to upset the masses and sometimes not rock the boat, but on this one I would ask you to think it through. If it wasn't YOU that ran the engagement league, I would be forming a protest movement against engaging until they fix it. I won't (because its you), but I am clear that chargning people goes completely against what you have been trying to achieve, MORE ENGAGEMENT.

I know you are willing to "help" people by delegating them more RCs, because that is how you roll... But that is something that is not something anyone should be beholden to you or anyone for. Making a comment and using "MANA" is something that should be "thanked" not "taxed". And just because generous people like you will plug the dike with "help paying those taxes" doesn't make it a thank you instead of a tax.

You don't need to reply, I'm not asking you to convince me on this one. In fact its the other way around for once. I'm asking you to think of how that person with 15 SP that just signed up is going to feel when they learn that they have to vote less if they comment. Do you really want them to choose making a comment and not giving others the value of their vote? How about witness votes? I voted for 2 witnesses with one of my alts 2 days ago (you and @yabapmatt), do you realize that took ALL MY RCs (that is all I did). So now I will get to vote for 20 and then my RCs will be gone?

Normally I think that things will straighten themselves out (sometimes smoothly and sometimes not)... But this is one that will have major ramifications. We all know they can tinker with the formulas of what has what value in their new genius plan, so if we can see that tax by the comments affecting our ability to do other things then it will have severe consequences. I hope you can find a way to see this. Because if you don't, then this place will never change. You (as a nice guy) want to give them time to see and give them the benefit of the doubt... I on the other hand and am not so nice, and I have seen the stupid decisions as I've seen the attrition directly. That greater than 100% attrition rate is a reflection on their lack of ability to be "in touch" with the masses. In my opinion, we need you to get it or Steemit will get so far out of touch that that connection is broken for good.

Again, no need to reply back. Please just think about this. If I'm wrong in your eyes, then its ok for us to disagree. I have the utmost respect for you and realize that two people can have differing opinions! I hope you have a great day and weekend.... So cheers and thank you for listening to my opinion!

You can comment for free on Facebook.. what’s wrong with getting more transactions as you grow your account here? Do you not remember the bandwidth issues? I couldn’t post 5 times a day or comment 30 times a day either when I first started. Then as I made rewards I powered up and no longer had the issues.

Nothing on the blockchain is free, except for those of course who pull out all earnings while spouting as loud as they can that someone (evil whales) owes them something. That’s why you see so many accounts get delegation while they continue to not invest anything of their own, why would they after all? It’s like asking someone to give up welfare and go work for the same amount, why would they?

Why not help those who add value grow through delegation. They can start out small like the rest of us and work their way up.. commenting 10 times a day isn’t crazy and well, it seems it will be closer to 30 after all of this. We don’t really know seeing as we are still in the middle of fixing the shit storm that is happening around us. I say see if the patch fixes the issue, then let’s look into delegating those that need it and contribute. Those that suck this place dry could maybe power up a bit of their earnings, then go back to sucking as usual.

if you think commenting 10 times a day is a limit that is acceptable, even 30 times a day, then you clearly aren't aware of the mainstream commenters.

Also I don't know who you are referring to "sucking this place dry", but it is certainly not me. I have not taken out one penny. I do know that there is tons of money taken by the tons of whales and circle-jerk voters that use the system to protect their investment under the "absurd guise" of making advertising posts.

As far as your point about "helping" people through delegation, that is a good point if you are talking about providing them with a means to make money. But when you have an elitist attitude that "helping" people to get a delegation in order to make a comment then you have crossed a line. People will instinctively rebel to your attitude because no one should have "indebtedness" for stating their free voice.

If you want to have a social platform, then you can run it any way you like. But don't talk to down to people that can't afford to buy into their way of speaking in your world. I will never be quiet about this point. I have been civil with people that have disagreed with me. But when you come at me with a reply that insinuates that I am somehow sucking off the system and then pretend that everything is ok because people can just suck up to YOU and get some "mana" so they can speak, you have crossed the line.

You are very much in line with the people that run Steemit and the old group of people in the "club" that thinks everything is ok... Sadly for you and everyone like you, you can't see the truth if it bit you in the ass. This place has shrunk in the time that I've been here. For a tech company that is supposedly cutting edge this is not a good thing. And the reason it is failing is not due to the people that are "sucking" from the bottom either. The reason it is failing is people like you that fail to take the time to understand what it takes to make the masses want to use the system. There is a reason why people come and GO. If you don't know why that is, then look at your own attitude and maybe examine why they don't feel welcome!

I’m a Minnow dear, no one is gonna suck up to me for delegation and I don’t think anyone should suck up to anyone for delegations. I didn’t come at you with anything, and wasn’t accusing you in the slightest. Please re read my comment, because that was not the intention behind it.

My point is bandwidth issues are nothing new for brand new users. It’s something we all have dealt with and became less of an issue as we grow.

I’m not talking down to anyone, but there is a very clear issue with small accounts spamming while pulling everything out. Sure some large accounts make a ton of money and pull a lot out, but I mean.. they are somewhat invested or they wouldn’t be large accounts. Circle jerks are part of steemit.. everyone is involved in them, you.. me, everyone. You vote for your friends, sometimes without even reading the post. We only look down on large accounts doing it due to the fact that their vote is worth more.

I haven’t failed to see what makes masses use the system. I just think rather than focusing on getting as many new people as we can here, just for them to leave later due to unrealistic expectations, I’d rather see us take the time (through curation) to reward the authors who add value. Let’s keep the good ones here and market the platform correctly, fixing front end issues and many other things that need work before trying to get the masses on board... just for them to leave later on.

I didn’t not call you any names or attack you. I’m fine with having a difference of option and a heathy discussion, I just think it’s a bit early to start burning things down.

Ok I stand corrected on you not coming at me, if you say you didn't then I accept that.

I think you want to fix things at the front end, which I'm not sure what that means, but I'm all for fixing anything broken. As for getting the masses on board... sure they can wait... At some point the competitors will have a say, but that is a choice all companies can decide.

And finally I am not burning down anything. To the contrary, I'm trying to save this as a social platform for the masses. If people don't want this to be a social platform for the masses, then of course we will have a disagreement in the intended goal.

Again sorry if I incorrectly got the impression that you were coming at me in your comments. I appreciate your response for sure, and agree to disagree with you on the future direction of the platform.

Yes, sometimes things can be lost through text.. I had no intention of attacking you and I apologize if it came across that way.

By front end I just mean, user experience.. making it easier for masses to use etc. I’m also a fixer as you and am passionate about this place as well.

I just have always felt the need to essentially clean this place up a bit before inviting the masses, but you’re right, we are in a race against competitors. It’s just getting people here is easy, it’s keeping them that is difficult. Sort of like they say in customer service, getting new customers is twice as expensive as retaining the ones you have. I guess that is sort of my thinking here as well, but as you say.. there are many things that need fixing. Hopefully we see some postive changes in the next few days and we can take a look at where we are and what needs to be done. Have a good day!

Amen! You got it 100% @davemccoy. Bravo!!

Thank you for the support on this one @old-guy-photos! Its important that they "get it" (in my opinion) :D

I agree with this. The current rise in RCs is a low bar step. Hopefully it doesn't need to be progressed higher, but there's nothing to prevent it from doing so.

Yes this week has sucked, but I still believe the objectives this dev team has sought out has been well thought out for scaling purposes, even if its implementation (in this last HF in particular) was a disaster and far from successful.

'anti-social network' is exactly what it is 😄
in fact it's not even a platform when you have to pay to vote/comment/post.
i guess when you're sitting on millions it's hard to understand the vast majority that have nearly nothing.

I agree, they need to go out among the regular people and realize what their experience are. Thanks for the comment (I know you used some RCs to make it) ;)

Shouldn't we be rewarded for commenting and engaging? I simply don't understand this.

That is my point exactly... I doubt they can explain it to you (since you're right), but maybe they will listen to you (or all of us collectively).

I guess I should first wait and see how it all plays out. Hopefully they have thought this through and have a better picture of it than I do!

I agree that seeing how it plays out is smart! I too hope they have thought it through and know better than both of us :D

have a wonderful weekend Melinda!

As much as I want to agree with this sentiment, there is something to be said about the personal responsibility of individuals becoming vested in the platform by actually acquiring some STEEM to power up.

The same can be said of newspaper pay walls. We are all so used to free information (or free crypto in this instance) that we forget that someone is paying/subsidizing for that access. I think 10x is appropriate on the face of things, and an easily adjustable figure if its not.

Steem essentially gives away "stock" if you will by rewarding users with Steem... its not merely a social network. People should be incentivized to power up and not feel entitled to the right of obtaining as much as they want on someone elses dime.

if you are right @investingpennies, then I hope you don't have a dream of mass adoption.... I guess if you want to have a little tech niche of people that can have discussions about blockchain and things like that, then it will do fine.

But if you expect people to "put money into the system to simply use it", then you will quickly find out that your expectations were off. I also think that while the opportunity to make money is ok, its nowhere near what it is hyped to be to get people here in the first place. And now with an attrition rate of greater than 100% you agree with disabling them until they "pay up" then you truly are so far off the mainstream. I don't know if you are part of the programming team, but its a lack of thought on programs like this that have made this place fail to retain the users. Instead of telling people what they "should" do, Steemit Inc might want to figure out what they "will" do. And I can assure you that if you charge people for commenting and they have to choose between that and making a post or upvoting, then you can damn sure bet that interaction will die a quick death. Maybe that's ok with the programmers who don't like people anyways, but for the ones here for the social aspect it will drive them away in herds.

Amen, I “will” stop commenting in general.... wait I already have! Much of my commenting was not for my own sake but for the support and encouragement of the authors.

I could care less about the details but I care about the experience, posts get no comments currently. I crave interaction and if I get none I give none simple as that.

Will it get better as they say with adjustments of “normal” behaviour? How can it when some of the most active users have been deterred from interacting “normally” including myself.

I have seen you on nearly ever post I have read without a single solid rebuttal to your statements of “should do” and “will do”. The question remains what do the people in charge want from the Steem chain vs what do the users want?

I want to not worry about another limitation as I struggled for months already to break past the bandwidth limitations and finally get noticed then start interacting at a sufficient level! I made investments, though small as I’m not a wealthy man, which now feel unsatisfactory for the demand of the platform.

Pay to play.... hmm games moved away from this system to something with paid add-ons for good reason but still the full game is available to the user just the challenge of accomplishing the missions are higher without purchases.

This whole thing seems like a convoluted mess if you ask me! Now I’m risking loosing delegations from our community account and my own which will make myself need to pull delegations from dapps and community members so I can continue to post to receive even less interaction from those members whom held my delegations in the first place.

Foresight is essential in business, lack thereof has bankrupted many good companies nearly overnight. The only protection currently is the waiting period to power down.

Posted using Partiko iOS

You said it better than me! I completely agree. I think they are so wrong on this one that they will have no choice but to see it. (and believe me, I don't think they look very hard either)

I'm very happy with the reaction from the people that actually read and respond though... It gives me encouragement that our voices might actually speak out loud enough that someone in power pays attention.

Thank you for making the point I was trying to make even better!

You've hit the nail on the head there, Dave. Figuring out what people "will" and "want" to do is the crux of anything being widely successful and accepted. It doesn't matter what you personally want from anything if nobody else is interested.

Thank you @minismallholding! I'm glad to see the point reinforced so that maybe it sinks in to a few that make these decisions! I think we all want to help this place get better, so I hope they take it constructively! :)

@davemccoy On the contrary, I think sustainable resource management necessary for mass adoption is the key focus of what we're trying to accomplish here.

Indeed, the goal is for SMTs eventually - ideally dApps running in tandem with STEEM or on centralized servers of their own. Yet this requires ensuring that resources paid for are allocated according to who owns them. In this instance we're not talking so much about users owning Steem but platforms owning larger amounts of STEEM. And those platforms are free to issue SMTs all they want in order to allot whatever of THEIR resources they wish to distribute accordingly to their dApp users. But these dApps must also be able to ensure their proportionate access to the STEEM blockchain.

It might be near-sighted to want mass adoption of a particular use case like a social network such as Steemit. Without some constraint keeping everyone in check, allowing rampant overuse of communal resources can't possibly work out in the long run.

If the use case is relevant and serves a purpose, people will migrate to it. Many may be turned off by Steemit, but I would hope that Steemit isn't the end goal anyways. The fact we're moving towards SMTs suggests that we're looking to become a dApp-friendly blockchain, and that requires some form of order above all rather than a disorganized use of blockchain resources. This is especially the case in regards to the low-SP population who clearly have no reason or incentive to hold onto Steem to begin with.

I believe in having meaningful communities and useful content. But in the context of what Steemit has to offer, some of this might take some finessing as to what the proper amount of resources actually is. The action cost is still declining due to equilibrium, and whether 10x is the answer or not is to be seen... but just because a bar is being set now doesn't really matter as long as the objective of not letting the platform die altogether is kept in check, as it has been as demonstrated by this update post.

I appreciate your reply and the courtesy with which you made your points. I can tell that you believe you are making the right choice. I respect that.

I also realize the point you made about preparing for what you think is going to be a rush of users (non-Steemit related). I am not privy to those negotiations nor do I have any way of knowing if this will be successful or not. I do hope you know what you are doing and wish you the best!

As regards to Steemit, I think you are running very close to killing it. I don't mean it ceasing to operate, I mean it being used as a general social media platform. If you don't care or have priorities that make that seem like no big deal, then I guess you will continue on your current path. If you do care, then I would highly suggest that you make the "engagement" function so small that people won't notice it even exists. If people find out they are getting blocked from doing anything and they find out that "engaging" is costing them something, then it will be the first thing they jettison. That's just a real world way of life.

I have had many (too many) conversations in the last few days with my friends and even with witnesses. The bottom line is most everyone at this point CARES. If you continue down the "Steemit is only a small part of the picture" path, then that will change faster than you currently realize.

Sometimes people immerse themselves into a world and a feedback loop that gives them answers they ask for, but not necessarily the truth. I think this is one of those times. I urge you and the powers within Steemit to take the time to really ask the mainstream before you test whether or not you really care about whether Steemit users stick around. This is intended as constructive advice, because I'm one of those that do still care at this point.