The debate
In a debate I had with @karov involving the nuances of Proof of Work, Proof of Stake, "Small Blocks" and "node decentralization", there was a disagreement. @karov is in favor of small blocks and promoted the idea that node decentralization is the reason why small blocks are favorable. This led me to question what matters more for a concept I called "mainstreamability". My argument was that small blocks put a performance limitation on the network which has major impact on "mainstreamability" and I highlighted Steem as an example of one of the only crypto projects which is successful on the basis of "mainstreamability".
What is mainstreamability?
To even make sense of my side of the argument in this discussion I have to first explain what mainstreamability is. Mainstreamability is a performance measure or metric. If the measure of success is in how many users are are active on a platform then mainstreamability is the measure we can use to try to predict success in terms of adoption. When comparing Steem to Bitcoin I would make the argument that although Bitcoin has a much higher marketcap; the actual real world utility of Steem is much greater than Bitcoin. I argue that in terms of achieving mainstream adoption Bitcoin has failed according to the numbers which reveal if I am generous that Bitcoin maybe has between 10-15 million users total world wide. On the other hand a successful platform typically has 100 million users at least and 10-15 million users in Bitcoin isn't even active accounts but more people who probably use it only sporadically.
Why do people only use Bitcoin sporadically?
The main reason why is because Bitcoin doesn't scale. Bitcoin is decentralized to a fault in my opinion, which is to say it is decentralized in areas of minimal importance (small block sizes for node decentralization) to achieving mainstream adoption while centralized in ways of great importance (like mining pools and hardware manufacturing). In order for Bitcoin to be of actual real world utility it must achieve greater performance but there is no realistic way to gain performance without sacrificing or making trade offs.
To provide an example, Linux provides mirrors to download and install apps. If you are familiar with the apt-get architecture then you know that downloads from geographically diverse parts of the world are possible. At the same time if we look closely then we will see a lot of universities hosting the apps and we will see a difference between ping times. The user (who in my opinion must come first), is typically seeking to get the best download speeds from these mirrors and so more often than not the user will choose the mirror with the best ping speeds (the closest connection). The point here is that Linux provides the user with the option and ultimate decision authority to decide when decentralization is beneficial and when it is not.
Only Measurably Beneficial Decentralization matters
In my counter argument with @karov I introduced the idea that measurably beneficial decentralization is the only kind of decentralization which matters. I put forth the argument that decentralization is a tactic to achieve some greater goal whether it be performance or security. I made the argument that the case for small blocks appears to have no measurable benefit toward security. In fact I put forth this question to 100% of supporters of small blocks; how does keeping block sizes small produce a measurable benefit to security?
We have to keep mining decentralized to reduce the probability of a 51% attack. This is an example of a measurable benefit to security. Probability of attack is expected to go down as decentralization of mining goes up. When I look at the pros and cons of blocksize I do not see anything which indicates a measurable benefit either to security or performance.
Wiki lists some of these are the concerns of raising the blocksize:
- A hard fork requires waiting for sufficient consensus.
- Risk of catastrophic consensus failure
- An emergency hard fork that can achieve consensus can be deployed on a short time period if needed
- Orphan rate amplification, more reorgs and double-spends due to slower propagation speeds. [This here is a possible performance impact]
- European/American pools at more of a disadvantage compared to the Chinese pools [This here is politics and nationalism]
- "Congestion" concerns can be solved with mempool improvements including transaction eviction.
- No amount of max block size would support all the world's future transactions on the main blockchain (various types of off-chain transactions are the only long-term solution) [Is there even this much demand for this to make any rational sense?]
- Fast block propagation is either not clearly viable, or (eg, IBLT) creates centralised controls.
- Larger blocks make full nodes more expensive to operate. [What impact does this have to performance or security?]
- Therefore, larger blocks lead to less hashers running full nodes, which leads to centralized entities having more power, which makes Bitcoin require more trust, which weakens Bitcoins value proposition. [More power over what? What impact does it have on security or performance?]
- Bitcoin is only useful if it is decentralized because centralization requires trust. Bitcoins value proposition is trustlessness. [Trustless does not exist in practice. Trust minimized does exist in practice. Trustless is a religious phrase rather than practical reality]
- The larger the hash-rate a single miner controls, the more centralized Bitcoin becomes and the more trust using Bitcoin requires. [How does increasing the blocksize have any measurable impact on this possibility?]
- Running your own full node while mining rather than giving another entity the right to your hash-power decreases the hash-rate of large miners. Those who have hash-power are able to control their own hash power if and only if they run a full node. [Does every user desire to run their own node?]
- Less individuals who control hash-power will run full nodes if running one becomes more expensive[9].
Looking at these arguments I would say the only arguments which matter are arguments where a measurable impact assessment can be made. For example if they can show the probability of a 51% attack may increase if the block size reaches beyond some threshold amount. If they can say the blocksize is currently too big for example and that decreasing the blocksize makes sense because it reduces the attack surface. Unfortunately I don't see hardly anyone suggesting that decreasing the blocksize is the means to increase security or performance. If blocksize increase degrades security and or performance then wouldn't this suggest that decreasing the blocksize may offer some performance and security gain?
Conclusion
The point of decentralization is to improve security and resilience of a network. In nature decentralization functions to make something resistant to attack by predators. Any decentralization which must exist should have some measurable benefit to security and resilience in my opinion. For an example if we look at mold we would be able to say it's one of the most distributed lifeforms on the planet. Mold reproduces anywhere there is moisture and there is so much of it floating around (it is so widely distributed) that it can never be killed even if humans set ourselves on the mission to exterminate all mold on earth. So in this case the function of having a fast reproduction rate and being extremely decentralized is that as a species it resists extinction. So the benefit of decentralization ultimately is extinction or eradication resistance.
If we look at our technologies in the cryptospace then again we can say that some platforms are better able to survive in a changing environment than others. Technologies which adapt quickly can survive much better in chaotic or harsh environments. Technologies which are decentralized are harder to stop, harder to eradicate, harder to shut down. In the case of peer to peer file sharing for example the decentralization made the technology highly resistant to legal attack, political attack, etc. You may or may not agree with the view that file sharing is right or wrong but the measurable impact is that file sharing can't be stopped because it's fundamental both to how humans communicate (sharing information) and the way the Internet is designed (peer to peer).
I rely on a spectrum,; which on one side is meaningful or measurably beneficial decentralization and on the other side is unmeaningful unbeneficial decentralization. Depending on where things fall on that spectrum determines if the decentralization is of utility or is religion.
Religious decentralization or to put it in a different way; ideological decentralization is to decentralize for it's own sake. This can also be called decentralism. In my opinion decentralism is to build technologies with the agenda to promote the political philosophy of decentralization (libertarianism, decentralization of power), rather than to produce a technology which has a real world utility. This would mean that Bitcoin might never have to have any real world utility or have very minimal utility as long as it is religiously pure, ideologically clean.
In my opinion (which may be right or wrong), the goal of mainstreamability is more aligned with permanence and building utility. If the goal is to make a big impact and difference for the world then 100 million users of all possible ideologies is better than 20 million or so decentralists. It is true that even if decentralism is an ideology or religion that over enough time perhaps we could see 100 million people adopt it. The point is that if it's guided by belief rather than the numbers, the data, the measurable impact, then what that ideology produces may not actually be measurably better. In measuring what is or isn't better we have "utility theory" which states: utility measures the level of satisfaction in the user of the product or service and that to satisfy some need is to produce real world value. If Bitcoin does not satisfy a need in the world then it does not obtain even a niche, and if some other product can satisfy that need better then Bitcoin becomes obsolete.
Ultimately this forces me to reach the conclusion that satisfaction of the user of platforms (not just current but potential future users) must come first. If Bitcoin is not in demand, or if the utility isn't increasing over time, then the users should be expected to move onto something better. Steem provides measurable utility but it provides this utility to the average person (not just the decentralist). The mainstreamability concept would show that if there are far more people who aren't decentralists vs a very small amount of people who are then to appeal toward a fringe group is to not be chasing mainstream adoption. In other words it's not ideal for mainstreamability of a product to focus on the user who is not part of the mainstream unless there is a realistic possibility of changing the opinions of the mainstream.
So this puts Bitcoin into a bad position in my opinion. Either Bitcoin has to change the mind of the world in order to achieve mainstream adoption or Bitcoin must change to meet the mind of the world. Bitcoin so far is unable to change because Bitcoin has the need to remain pure but sacrifices mainstreamability in the process. The loss of performance, the loss of scalability, is exactly the hole EOS, Steem, and other newer platforms are going to fill. Is there a reason to believe that Steem wont have more real world use (daily usage and transactions as a measure) than Bitcoin? If it does, then Steem is proving more utility in a measurable way.
References
- 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility
- 2 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_size_limit_controversy
- 3 https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/why-decentralism-beyond-left-right
- 4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_assessment
Great read. So are you a bch fan? I tend to think no one ever wants to run a full mode. I might lend processing power for a reward. As long as nodes are in the thousands that’s probably decentralized enough. Maybe blocksize should vary with node count, a difficulty adjustment for nodes to encourage or discourage nodes .
Hello dana-edwards,
This is what I concluded from your very detailed content.
Steem does have more real world use (daily usage and transactions as a measure) than Bitcoin.
I strongly believe that Steem is proving more utility in a measurable way than Bitcoin.
comment?
Easy to assess sizes. Money, all if it is backed only by 'what money can buy'. Steem tokens buy steeming. Bitcoin buys everything, cause it is not bound to a part of the economy. Unless Steem eats out all of the economy, money per se, remain with bigger mainstreamability.
A few random observations on your essay...
One of the major benefits of decentralization as I see it is to reduce the threat of tyranny. You touch on it, but I see it as central. Our founding fathers, to a man, were strict decentralists. We need to centralize only the common defense, the postal system, and a common system of trade.
Now, v.v. BTC, the coin is clearly still the best known and still (despite all competition) the one that-- I would hazard to guess-- a majority of westerners, and a strong minority of the rest, has heard of and would use if they had more options for its use. People, generally, will always err on the side of freedom, and anonymity if they fear any type of tyranny, and all the world's governments (with the possible exception of the Kingdom of Tonga, and a couple of others) currently show a strong inclination and trend towards greater and greater tyranny. Additionally, of course, you have the globalists and the U.N. which sincerely desire the absolute tyranny of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent world government.
If that emergent world government succeeds, they will certainly adopt and ENFORCE a world currency, and I see blockchain technology as a very likely tool they may seize on to bring it all to fruition. Whether or not BTC becomes the world currency, it is certainly the most likely of all the cryptos to currently be looked at for such a role.
Steem is a better, more truly grounded and inherently valuable crypto (if Steemit manages to incentivize readership as much as they have content contribution and figures out new and better ways to monetize) and we should hope to either absorb BTC one day or vice versa...hopefully before the declaration of any global currency.
Even though decentralists are right AND ARE THE UNDISPUTED GOOD GUYS, I fear they do not have either the political or military power to prevail against the globalists.
true. and it is NOT ideology. It is about the performance specs of a technology this tyranny-vs-freedom comparison. It is physics. Flatter network topologies make stronger 'computers'. Tyranny can be regarded as a consensus protocol which reaches one opinion by simply eliminating and suppressing the multitude of opinions. Procrustics. 'if you lack the capacity to handle the traffic, just choke down the traffic' that's what tyranny is from server-client computer network perspective.
This post and the comments are making my nose bleed and my brain hurt! LOL.. I am learning more and more things from here. I hope there are more engaging contents in steemit like this. Cheers!
You have said a lot of important things about Tarek. You have created a blog very nicely yet every awesome has happened in every post. It's all very nice. This post has been very nice. Thank you very much for your important post.
Thanks, Dana. Will reply in more detail tomorrow. Some points are imprecise, I'll correct on this. For start, please compare in as rigorous as possible terms the 'mainstreamability' ( I like the term, indeed ) of Facebook and the Federal Reserve. :P ... I replied indeed point by point, which attracted my attention in your text above. Again - Steemit/Bitcoin -> Facebook/Fed
Well there is a difference. The federal reserve currency legally requires exclusive use of it for paying tax. I prefer not to involve myself in any legal discussion with you because of course that is your strongest area and it would only sidestep the debate away from technical discussion. What matters in the technical debate is which solution better answers the "performance benefits vs security costs" question.
If security costs performance then depending on how much mainstreamability you desire to have; you may have to give up some negligible security to gain performance. What matters is the impact of that sacrifice and this impact must be quantifiable, measurable, and not merely "let's trust the opinion of wise genius developers who tell us what they think and feel". No, we need quantifiable evidence in support of their claims one way or the other.
The Proof of Stake crowd has provided quantified evidence in the form of equations which show that Proof of Stake works via game theory. The idea being that there is a cost associated with violating or attempting to violate the protocol. In DPOS the cost is you can get fired as a witness and see your privileges revoked. In Casper you could see your tokens burned as punishment for violation of the protocol. In other words, there are "laws" in the economic game theoretic sense, and enforcement mechanisms in the form of "punishments" or "fines" or "fees" or revoked privileges.
The Casper paper has been released as a specification and you can peer review it. It will be tested soon. DPOS is proven to work on Steem and while I admit it does have political problems; it clearly works because we are using it right now for this debate. DPOS is secure under a greater amount of transactions per second than just about every other blockchain, with over 900,999 users of Steem alone based on accounts. Someone can of course make a case that Proof of Stake is less secure "in theory" but in practice it's just as secure as Proof of Work. I really don't see much benefit but I do see some slight theoretical benefits to Proof of Work, but only theoretical, only strategic, not practical.
'I prefer not to involve myself in any legal discussion with you because of course that is your strongest area and it would only sidestep the debate away from technical discussion.' - WRONG! I never argue for the sake of the argument, but only to increase my knowledge.
no. forget the legal perspective. follow the mechanism design. Fed notes ofc have higher mainstreamability than FB access utility tokens because Fed notes serve all poss. transactions, backed by the whole economy, while FB is just a part of the economy, a sector of sector - providing use in 'socialization over internet'. This splendid material I recommend too, I do not authority-fallacy-ise because I do not know the author, I only content-refer. It seems to me that each sentence is backed by at least one book! https://www.scribd.com/document/354688866/Bitcoin-A-5-8-Million-Valuation-Crypto-Currency-and-A-New-Era-of-Human-Cooperation - check page 5, <<simplifies pricing calculations (from
O
(
n
2
) complexity to
O
(
n
)) [39] and negotiations >> the three money functions - MESVUA.
Steem has a wide usability. It is decentralized and could actually be better utilized than Bitcoin. Bitcoins mainstreamability is somewhat not as clear as Steem’s. The satisfaction of the usage of Steem is to average people, basically everybody, in my opinion bitcoin is too rigid with the world
On Proof of Work, I advised you to study : http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
Argument from authority is a logical fallacy. It reveals potential confirmation bias, that is it is possible you simply looked up a paper which agrees with the opinion you already have rather than express what it is from the paper which allowed you to arrive at your current opinion.
Please reveal how you arrived at Proof of Work is better than Proof of Stake? Is there something measurable? A number you can cite? An equation?
The number I can cite to reveal whether or not they are equally secure in practice would be based on the actual attack statistics. I could ask what is the frequency and severity of successful attacks to Proof of Work and Proof of Stake (including DPOS) for a comparison of compromise rates or the rate of successful attack against the protocols.
No. :) you miss the point. It is all content I'm referring to with this article. I do not know Paul Sztorc to misuse him as an 'authority'. The formulae are in.
On Proof of Stake - we know it for centuries. It is called: corporation, public limited company, Aktiengesellschaft, etc. I can't wrap my head around this - why we have to reinvent the corporation, and to disguise it as a non-company. Because the essence is the same - voting (or other consensus protocol) proportional to the number of the shares held. Classical shares are tokens also but made of paper and ink.
What you must mean is a firm, not a corporation. And sure, it can be said that DPOS produces a decentralized digital firm like structure. The point is, that structure works well and allows for governance without loss of efficiency. While you can say that perhaps Proof of Work is much more automated, perhaps someday will be fully automated, there is no reason to believe Proof of Stake cannot become a fully automated "firm" or conglomerate. So the only difference would seem to be with Proof of Stake the human being ultimately has the control while with Proof of Work no one really owns it, it's sort of it's own thing.
This is the exact reason I prefer the hybrid Proof of Work + Proof of Stake approach. I think pure Proof of Work encourages long term risks which pure Proof of Stake or hybrid Proof of Work + Proof of Stake do not encourage. A long term investor who wants to know for sure their investment will be around and remain pro-social might prefer to hold the Proof of Stake project because they can always course correct in the future. In Proof of Stake some humans will always be in control as long as some humans are the stakeholders.
I mean corporation because in corporation capital ownership and direct participation in management are distinguished. Cf.: societe anonyme. 'Firm' = name / signature ... etymologically and financially and denote the 'ID' of a participant in an economy. Firm is the widest sense, it matches 'account' in the cryptosphere. On PoS as reinvention of corporation - exactly right, you nailed it - it is automation of corporation, call it so then ... it is NOT guaranteed that 'human being ultimately has the control' until there is some orthogonal to the PoS protocol ID verification protocol. Which inevitably involves off-chain ID validators. Involves TRUST, i.e. involves force. The 'hybrid' of PoW and PoS would then have three dimensions or coordinate axes - PoW, PoS and ID ver. The trick is to get to MORE efficient scheme of work, isn't it? Occams rasor cuts us otherwise. Long term investors willing higher SRI/ESG levels and public profile would rather choose outright centralized ledger which exist and are mainstream in enough electronic form, rather than 'hybrids'. Naturally 'hybrids' have worse performance vs the specialized solutions. Example.: a duck, it flies, swims and walks but flies worse than an eagle, swims worse than a dolphin and walks worse then a cheetah. Tradeoffs ... of hybridization. ( Note that I do not say that PoS as corporation-on-crypto is not possible to be better than centralized ledger corporation. But it is the end, not means to an end. The means is crypto, the end is corporation).
On "Small Blocks" - I never said 'small blocks'. I said that blocksize increase is not a long term viable scaling mechanism. The blocksize incrase reaches a point where the network can't handle it. Which favors mining assets ownership and geographic concentration. Which makes the network 'coarse-grained' less and less decentralized. NO it is not 'religion' , it is about the very core Value Proposition of Bitcoin and its numerous imitations, rejuveniled (difficulty-wise) clones, etc. (you know that I'm firm on the position that the next crypto project with real novel use is yet to come). It is not occasional that in 2010 Satoshi put max block size. Because of the network limitations. Here you are maybe the best synopsis of arguments on the theme.: ~~~ embed:Bitcoin/comments/7oszqh/eli5_why_would_bigger_blocks_lead_to/ , quote.: <<They estimate that eventually, if everyone in the world uses bitcoin and makes 2 transactions a day, but uses the lightning network, a 133mb blocksize will be needed. Without the lightning network, something like a 200gb (GIGABYTE) size PER BLOCK would be needed to accommodate that much usage. >> And this does NOT even accomodate the (near) future. Back on 'small blocks', specifically. Ofc, I'm not for small blocks, but I'm for blocksize increase matching the network capacity. If this could be automated - splendid. So , lets dub my position Net Fit Blocks :) :) ... if the need exceeds the capacity - LN, Omni, even traditional banking in crypto could be used to compensate BUT in terms of controlled and voluntary tradeoff centralization/cost/security. You notice the >3 orders of magnitude with or without Layering / Lightning Network. reddit metadata: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 ~~~
Wha about Moore’s law? Doesn’t transaction volume just have to lag Moore’s le for small blocks to work?
Precisely. That's why I said 'Net Fit Block Size'. The processing speed to match the communication speed to keep the thing away from recentralization death spiral. Back in 2010 when Satoshi imposed the block size limit - to avoid the infinite block menace first, but more to keep blocks small enough so to not choke the net ... afair Gavin Andresen spoke about automation of block sizing. Extremely meaningful goal btw, as far as it is possible to be done on-chain, i.e. without reliance on off-chain stream of info, prone to manipulation. ( One of the ways would be to , say, tie up block size maximum with difficulty or transactions flux. ) Moore's law inevitably increases both the node and net capacities, so it'd be nicely unwinnable arms race. On Moore's law specifically - my current understanding of physics is that it is inexorable. For (simply) the Planck scale as much as unreachable as the alphabetical example - speed of light, or the absolute zero. They are asymptotic 'boundaries'.
As long as it’s profitable I don’t see why everything won’t get faster. There is too much money to be made by getting more efficient.
Okay this is a viable response.
How long is long term for you? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? More? The centralizations we see right now in my opinion are transient. What I mean is that Moore's law cannot continue forever which means at some point we will reach a point where chips cannot be made more efficient. At that point how many chips you have is literally how many stakes (votes) you have and you end up with the same exact math from what I can see that you would have if you just started with Proof of Stake. Only you will have burned up and wasted all these CPU cycles to get to the exact same place.
In addition Proof of Work funds the development of chips which literally are the equivalent of the paperclips from the grey goo problem. ASICs are so specialized that they produce nothing other than Bitcoins and to me this is the biggest problem with Proof of Work. If it were GPUs at least it's funding better GPUs but once it is ASICs then it's funding the paperclips. Since more paperclips equals more votes, why wouldn't a rich person simply buy as many chips as necessary to maintain a 51% controlling interest in Bitcoin? How can it even be stopped if for example the federal reserve as you brought up would just print money to buy a monopoly on ASICs and in essence buy the votes? Unlike with Proof of Stake there is no way to secure the votes from this computational resource monopoly that I'm aware of but in Proof of Stake there are ways.
While I'm not the math person in the room I would like to ask you if there is any quantitative difference if we measure influence in ASICs or in stakes? If a stake costs exactly as much as an ASIC chip what is the difference here? Cultural?
Lightning network takes things off chain. If we go off chain then how does this impact security? I would think this has a bigger potential impact on security than bigger blocks or smaller blocks or just about any other change. Lightning presents risks which while I think small (in my opinion), are still much bigger than everything else we are discussing. If it's off chain then how does Proof of Work even secure it? This is still undecided even in theory so I will not discuss it too much, and in practice I don't know where Lightning is implemented to form any conclusion.
Geographic concentration is a legit argument but minimal. I don't think that geographic concentration would last very long. It is true there will be data centers but they could be built anywhere including on man made Islands, in the desert, anywhere the people with the money decide. The problem of data centers depends on the manufacturing and if that is centralized then of course mining can centralize.
Suppose Nvidia decides to start a cloud mining company and reward purchasers of their contracts with Nvidiacoins? What if Intel, AMD, Amazon, Google, and all the bigger companies do similar? Game over right?
This definitely requires several replies :) .: No.1 ''How long is long term for you?''. Easy to answer - just few years. BCH is just rejuvenation of BTC like reverting the difficulty clock few years back. To replenish scaling of network this way is as wise as to avoid collision into a brick wall but running in circles while waiting the brick wall to move ahead.
second, '' What I mean is that Moore's law cannot continue forever which means at some point we will reach a point where chips cannot be made more efficient. '' -- you can not reach the Planck scale. The closer you get, the more it takes (and gives, cf. Edward P. Tryon) to advance. There is ONE BILLION times , 9 orders of magnitude more spacetime towards the within of the Planck scale, than it is towards the without of the Hubble scale.
Third, ''In addition Proof of Work funds the development of chips which literally are the equivalent of the paperclips from the grey goo problem. '' I'm afraid I infected you with this dark 'meme' but you pulled it out of context. The paperclip maximizer argument of Nick Bostrom is flawed in one very important point direction: which commandment has higher chances for successful execution? 'Live!' or 'Live for ... !' ?? A paperclip maximizer smart enough to survive long enough to do its is job, inevitably will abandon the 'for ... !' part of its commandment. Paperclips get maximized as much as there is demand of paper to clip. Same with BTC - it lives for provision of monetary services. The best we ever had - long topic I'll develop it in series of posts later ... no demand no food for the 'grey goo'. The other thing - on cosmic scales - paperclip infinitization of btc asic mining , i.e. all the mass-energy and spacetime to be turned into btc miner - again it is not so apocalyptic because btc protocol does not utilize pure randomness. pure randomness is infinitely expensive. run long enough and the glitches away from randomness make enough room for entire meaningfullness universes to ride the process.
The problem with Bitcoin is that Proof of Work effectively is a paperclip maximizer at this point. ASICs are the functional equivalent of paperclips. ASICs only exist to mine Bitcoin and Bitcoin produces lots of ASICs.
I explained this few times. Will try now to compress it down to few words.: The best money are those totally useless for another purpose. The best money-maker mechanism is the one incapable of doing s.t. else. Thus money AND money-making utility maximized.
That makes no sense to me. Are you talking about Proof of Work in specific here? I'm not arguing how Proof of Work must work. I'm arguing that Proof of Work is inherently wasteful because of how it must work and that once any hashing algorithm produces ASICs then it is pure waste without even beneficial side effects like with GPU mining.
ASICs produce a lot of heat, waste and my argument is anti ASIC not even anti Proof of Work.
PoW is the least wasteful governance algo. ASICs are the most efficient PoW hw.
Forth, ''51% controlling interest in Bitcoin? How can it even be stopped if for example the federal reserve as you brought up would just print money to buy a monopoly on ASICs and in essence buy the votes? '' - an entity, i.e. single Will, i.e. sole Sensus, as opposed to CONsensus, will have to waste resources to disguise itself as non-existent, i.e. to behave exactly as if it does not exist, in order to utilize its position. The presence of such entity can be detected , because it imprints itself on the total pattern of the assets performance. One of the greatest achievements of Satoshi was the economic incentive foundation - BTC is valuable if and only if decentralized. This is conditio sine qua non est BTC. It is valuable if and only if you do not have it. The moment you have it, it loses its value. Takeover-BTC plots are doomed, because once you achieve 50%+ you instantly squeeze all the life outta it. The situation is ''so long and thank you for the fish'' the conqueror is left with nothing, and the happily rich wealthy subsidized by the attack ... rest, just fork out and keep on ahead with all the value you used to 'take over'. Back to your question above: The fed print money to buy asics? Buy from whom? this 'whom' gets immensely rich and the fed ends up with a heap of useless junk asics and totally depreciated dollar. Bitcoin incentive framework is like automated financial aikido - it uses the energy of the attacker to feed the good guys.
''...computational resource monopoly that I'm aware of but in Proof of Stake there are ways.'' - are you? Please explain these ways.
In Proof of Stake you can choose your witnesses which is equivalent to choosing your miners in Proof of Work. It can be a political choice like an election or random.
Additional expenses. Voting / choice must be informed - informing takes time and other resources and is prone to disinformation attack. The more you explain it to me, the more it looks like the present day corporate governance model - but digitized in fancy 'crypto' cover.
On political versions of Proof of Stake like DPOS for example I do agree this is a bottleneck. This in my opinion is the main bottleneck. But I also must note that not every version of Proof of Stake requires politics or political selection of witnesses. The process can be done randomly (such as algorand, or it can be done in the masternode way where people buy the masternodes.
Again, shareholder style governance is one of the better forms that exist for humans so to say it resembles that is in my opinion not a bad thing. It's better than communism, monarchy, etc. The people with the most to lose have the most to gain and done right the people who interact with the platform earn the stakes (like with Steem if Steem worked as intended).
You assume that voting and randomness have no cost? Human voting and delegation to vote, i.e. human attention is for free? Opinion costs! Randomization cheaper than hashing?
The problem with this way - data centers, net choke big blocks, centralization geographic, node etc. is that the investors in this strategy will waste their money. It is unscalable. To be scalable upon limited resource a scheme must have positive feedback loop upon moving the brick wall as you near it. Like predator-prey model where more predators = more pray.
''Suppose Nvidia decides to start a cloud mining company and reward purchasers of their contracts with Nvidiacoins? What if Intel, AMD, Amazon, Google, and all the bigger companies do similar? Game over right?'' - tokens ARE in perfects coincidence / match with so much well known entia of the past - you talk utility tokens and eventually shares. Access to services. Tickets, not money. Money are universal. They are useful ONLY for monetary function...
and last.: ''ASICs are so specialized that they produce nothing other than Bitcoins and to me this is the biggest problem with Proof of Work. '' - no. it is its biggest advantage. Optimal money, maximization of money-ness is where utility for anything else is minimized. Note.: BTC is only money, and asics do nothing but btc. Google for ''under the microscope true cost ''. When I say POW is the cheapest I mean cheapest then everything, not just PoS but also the traditional double-entry centralized-ledger book-keeping hierarchic system we call fiat.
'Mainstreamability' is a splendid neologism. I'm stealing it. I'd define it as.: 'to pull crypto out of peoples heads and mouths and to put it into their pockets and hands'. Tell me please the answer of my mainstreamasbility question wrt Facebook and the Fed. 'Bitcoin has no use' is equivalent to say that 'Gold has no value, cause you can't eat it'. The utility of any form of money is in transforming barter into trade. Benchmark goods to which to measure and exchange anything else for. And it greatest utility is its total lack of any other utility except for payments. Stronger transactors or currencies are very sought after thing, I'd say even - subject of endless 'arms race'. The utility of an utility token is the utility of what money can buy. Mainstreamability of money is a function exactly of what money can buy. Utility tokens are goods to buy with money if ofc the user does not source everything from the particular tokenized service provider.
''The point here is that Linux provides the user with the option and ultimate decision authority to decide when decentralization is beneficial and when it is not.'' - right. Exactly like in the case of ''Layering'' systems like LN, where the user has the 'dial a trust' power to decide VERSUS one block size fit all. You mentioned these days that decentralization-centralization is 'spectrum'. I can't agree more. It is about network topology. The fully decentralized networks act as their own servers - which is metaphor - indeed the trick is concentric avalanche of mutual verifications. The fully centralized systems should have only one server and all the rest are clients. The extrema of this spectrum - full cent. or full decent. I suspect are as unreachable as ... the speed of light. It takes more and more to get nearer. Also extreme decentralization? what does it mean? nodes 'size' infinitezimal? There is always granularity, discreteness - centralization-decentralization spectrum is like how many pieces make the net. The limit is the total resources of the network. I feel that way before the extremes the cost will exceed total resources. BUT, as I mentioned it is ok if it is up to the user to select which topology fits its needs - flat/decentralized/geodesic or vertical/trusted/centralized.
LN is in my opinion a dangerous way to scale. Don't you think LN leads to big data centers? Why wouldn't the Lightning Network lead to the exact centralization you seem to fear? Big data centers?
Because it is NOT 'one blocksize fits all' and because it is 'dial a centralization' personal choice thing.
Once you have it in your pocket it is out of decentralization concerns. Cause it is only up to you what you do with it. Ownership is maximization of 'centralization'. It requires at least 2 in order to talk about CONsensus. In case of one it is just 'sensus'.
no it does not require data centers. even mass scale payments trusted operator of LN channels is optional to use. AND more importantly as you see LN digests the block size net choking problem with at least 3 orders of magnitude.
''[Trustless does not exist in practice. Trust minimized does exist in practice. Trustless is a religious phrase rather than practical reality]'' - WRONG. Trust is synonymous with force in any imaginable instance. You know my two mantras :) - ''law is between, code is within'' and ''i trust you only as much as i can make you.''. Trust is very physical and practical thing. As much as ... gravity. Trustless meme started as something very simple - over blockchain network one can transact without the need to trust somebody. I.e. because it is self-ENFORCING , all is within, all is code ... there's no need s.o. to be made to... No need of escrow to provide for simultaneity, or refund, no need of judges to punish the misperformers. I totally disagree on the 'religious' treatment of 'trust' and 'decentralization'. They are engineering specifications, not ideals. They turned into buzzwords but the problem of hollow use is to the hollow users of these terms. Ideology is always a lie.
Amazing @dana-edwards