 | I believe that currently, most Steemit users are aware of the latest changes which followed HF21 and HF22. Especially HF21 has brought many extreme emotions ... |
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INTRODUCTION
I've read a number of interesting publications related to that recent forks, however, most authors seem to focus on the new 50/50 reward split, non-linear rewards curve and benefits of new free downvote pool.
And today, I would like to focus on that latest improvement: free downvlote pool. I see this as a crucial topic which doesn't get enough attention.
Lately, I've witness groups of users teaming up and looking for other targets that they could mass-downvote to their satisfaction. And many people out there express satisfaction, whenever they can join mass-downvoting and sending one user after another into "oblivion".
PROBLEM I SEE
 | Dear readers, try to imagine a community in which people who have the largest stake (wealthy ones) are receiving new weapons. |
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A tool that allows them to punish anyone who doesn't follow and obey their own 'code of ethics' and unwritten rules. Imagine that you could lose your hand whenever they would decide that you deserve that (regardless of your crime). Or sentence you to death, without any warning or even without letting you know what you did wrong.
Imagine a world full of small local of wealthy warlords, who started "cleaning" the world from unwanted people and targeting them for crimes that were not considered 'crimes' until now. A world where those warlords do not take any responsibility for their own actions (and there is no power that could regulate their behaviors or punish them for wrong decisions.
This is how I see Steemit right now. And I feel so sorry for all those users, who's accounts and sometimes months of work ruined just within a day. Very few users with a large stake, seem to even try to put himself/herself in shoes of those who are being flagged/downvoted for reasons they usually do not understand.
So many of them act like simple "downvotes" would solve the problem.
EXCELLENT EXAMPLE
 | I understand that fighting abuse is generally a very noble thing to do, we all still should think twice if receiving punishment is equal to the crime. |
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Please have a look at this example of a user, who has been mass downvoted and his reputation went down from 40 to 12, simply because he used a picture, which was coming from a free picture site so he was allowed to use it without giving credit to this site:
Honestly, sadness was all I felt while reading this comment. I'm really sad for all those vulnerable users who will suffer for reasons they sometimes do not understand.
How many of you would continue your efforts on the Steemit platform, knowing that you got downvoted so badly to the point that your publications are no longer visible to anyone?
IMPORTANT QUESTION
 | Is it really the way to go? How much longer can Steemit endure with unregulated "militia" (wealthy users with their own visions). |
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Militia that can punish anyone they target without any given warning, without adding to a blacklist of people being warned, without taking any responsibility for their actions and possible mistakes.
We can call them militia, we can call them warlords. Either way, those users are absolutely above the law. Their invested wealth allowed many of them to become THE LAW. And it's absolutely scary ...
IT'S TIME FOR REFLECTION
 | I strongly believe that it's time for solid reflection, before it's too late. On one hand, so many people are trying to onboard new users, |
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...but at the same time many of those users are being discouraged by being targeted. Often without warning, without a second chance and sometimes without any option but to power down.
After all, what would you do if you would become downvoted till your reputation is close to zero and your publications are no longer visible to anyone .... would you still stick around?
Those newbies more often than not are coming to conclusions, that the Steemit platform is very complicated, with a huge learning curve, there is pretty much noone supporting their efforts and helping them to get some traffic. However, there are many people eager to punish them for "doing wrong".
Let's make it clear: I'm not fully against downvoting and I see great work done by users like @theycallmedan and many others, however it's very obvious that something needs to change. Or we will end up killing the remaining of our small userbase and turning STEEM blockchain into club of "wealthy and privileged only" users.
Not to mention that users who will be "forced to quit" Steemit will probably never come back and will share their awful story with others. Is that what we really want? To bring so much negative PR to our platform?
Something really need to change. And we should start with acknowledging the problem and thinking of solutions.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Right now we're building downvoting culture and results of our actions will stay with us for very long time.
RESTEEM IF YOU CAN
Yours, Piotr
Partners supporting my work:
 | Are you passionate about topics related to technology , AI, blockchain? Or perhaps you're interested with social media marketing and psychology? Add me on Linkedin and drop a message. |
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Piotr
There is bound to be some abuse of the downvotes, just as there was before the HF. You come up with one example but don't name the person or who is doing the downvoting.
There are quite literally thousands of accounts which have been placed on blacklists for a range of abuses on the platform including vote farming, spamming, plagiarism, circle jerks, bid-bot abuse etc. I'm not kidding on that. Install the extension steemblacklist and watch as your make your way around.
So who is this one person who claims to have used public domain graphics and was heavily downvoted? Who did the downvoting? If the person is truly innocent then there are those who could be interested in helping. Be aware, is not the first time I've howls of innocence and have learned the current bad action is just the tip of the ice-berg.
I don't personally take part in doing much downvoting. That is my choice. But, if I come across someone misusing the platform, I do choose to.
I have always watched some of those currently engaged in downvoting platform abusers doing so at the expense of their potential income and often without support. There is two sides to the argument.
IF the current level of downvoting makes some of those abusers either go away or stop their bad behaviour, then the move is better than I expected it to be. Discouraging the abuse makes the platform more attractive. It's not like people can just have their accounts shut down like on other platforms.
A lot of utopian ideals on steemit get dashed on the rocks of human depravity as they do in the world at large. The law of unintended consequences is irrevocable this side of the fall.
Late BIG THX for your supportive comment @armadilloman
Yours, Piotr
Steemit is converting to DrugWars
Hi crypto.piotr, I think it's important to have changes, which affects the system in a good way. As it seemed in the first look, the HF21 was looking promising. More curation, less sh.tposts...but it seems to me, that it started to be used in a bad way. Yes, you are right with the downvotes, it might not serve just as a tool to "improve steemit", but also as a revenge fighting place such as DrugWars. Okay, DrugWars is just a game, where you can earn some DGW tokens (STEEM previously), but still a game. I really think this kind of behaviour should stay there. I think this might change a bit in the future when the "olympic sport" of downvoting will not be as amusing as it is right now after changing the rules that way.
Great comment @ritxi
Indeed. One thing that scares me the most is the fact that we can fight with different sort of abuse on steem blockchain, but there is absolutely nothing can be done to those who abuse downvotes. That's scary.
Imagine that steem competition in order to destroy this community would only have to invest less than half million usd, spread it between accounts, power up and steadily be targeting few users at the time. How long would it take for most of those users to quit steemit? probably not that long
Yours
Piotr
Indeed it might happen, but I still hope rationality and positiveness will succeed and win.
Hello Dear Friend, I would like to thank you for writing this post. It is as if you and I share a the same inner thoughts, the way you verbalised it is actually far better that I could have. The imagery you created is spot on, as someone who originated from Africa and was constantly having to be worried for myself or my family that we could be attacked at any point, I echo the sentiments that Steem should not go that way.
Putting downvote power in the hands of people who have money but may not be qualified to be objective or to contain their emotions is highly dangerous. I am on Steem today because of the positive sentiment I received from whales in the beginning for my ideas and not because I was met with a hostile downvote, I certainly would not be.
I understand the need to prevent abuse and think it has its place, but the same as the law prevents vigilantism, there should be rather one accountable body that to the best of their ability evaluates posts against properly defined criteria and not just give a gun with daily free bullets to everyone who has an opinion of who should be shot at for whatever reason they personally decide.
If you look at the latest buildteam post, we have started to give away 20% of post rewards by setting @null or @steem.dao as beneficiary, this is likely to give users some reprieve from being downvoted and some immunity when promoting their posts, but not guaranteed, especially if post quality is dubious.
However one member of our team members who relies on income from translating a weekly a weekly post for us had this to say:
Also my team reports that alot of users are leaving Steem, I personally fear this will become a policed state, I came to Steem because it embodied the spirit of freedom which is what crypto is all about, I now feel that it will become a place where bullying will become rampant and many lives will be destroyed, I now live in a country that has very low violence but workplace bullying is very high, which leads to emotional damage and high suicide rates, this is a massive social problem and by going this route of empowering whales with downvotes without evaluating their character and ideals to wield such downvotes is highly dangerous.
I will continue to monitor the situation and receive feedback from users such as yourself.
Dear @thecryptodrive
Thank you for your time. Amazing comment. I'm glad to know that we're on the same page and we see those issues.
Today I've noticed another excellent example of being mass-downvoted without a warning. My good friend ulqu3 was away for quite some time and he posted something the other day and used bidbots to push it to trending page.
Try to guess what happened to his publication? Few solid flags from different users and noone did bother to explaining why is he being downvoted. That's the easiest way of "killing" our userbase :( Unfortunatelly.
You nailed it!
It's really time to build awareness and ensure that large steem stakeholders do not feel like they are "the law".
Thanks for sharing link to your latest post. Will check it out right away :)
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr
As we both know, downvotes when used properly are good for the Steem economy as they preclude the efficacy of redirecting inflation to things that are not helpful such as spam, plagiarism, or low effort miners of bid bot votes.
It is important for us to encourage a good worth ethic within the Steem culture and that is where I see downvotes as having a certain utility. There is a bad side when they are not used properly such as in cases of content agnostic revenge flagging.
Here are a few things I believe we should remember to downvote or flag properly:
I could expand on all of these but one in particular I would like to speak on is #4. Let's say you disagree about some conspiracy theory but there is an author on Steem producing content supporting that theory.
Let's say they go all out in the presentation. They create images, GIFs, and the language is superb... But ideologically you disagree with the premise.
That's ok. We can agree to disagree but that does not mean we ought to downvote it. Nobody is saying you have to upvote it, either.
Personally, I may give it an upvote just to reward the time and effort even if it is something I do not agree with ideologically.
That bring said.. My upvotes are not to be seen as endorsement neither are my downvotes the opposite. I vote based on perceived value of the content irrespective of the ideas or beliefs they espouse.
Now, it is true I may gravitate towards curating those that represent my worldview but that is my right and everyone else's as well.
Thanks for bringing this topic to the forefront.
You see what @smidge-tv just did. That would be called an opinion or revenge flag.
(He used to get flagged by us for spamming copy/paste YT videos)
Thanks for providing an example of what NOT to do, Smidge.
Dear @anthonyadavisii
Have a look at what happened with my own publication. For no reason it has been downvoted by few powerful accounts and all SP in rewards (none coming from bots) were cleared out.
Over half million SP behind downvotes, without any explanation why I was flagged so hard.
I never felt so discouraged to continue my adventure on Steem blockchain, the way I am today ....
cc: @achim03, @devann, @oivas, @definethedollar, @missaj, @goldmanmorgan, @deirdyweirdy, @fucho80, @zekepickleman, @minimining, @yonnathang, @alokkumar121, @juanmolina, @dm312, @movingman, @maxbow, @xpilar, @newhope, @majes, @majes.tytyty, @mariusfebruary, @deathcross, @digital-wisdom, @futuremind, @shadowspub, @wakeupkitty
I've been looking at this since the notification and trying to compose some thoughts for you, but this one is tough, because to me it defies any semblance of logic.
I think you jumped into the snake pit with this post my friend. I admire your courage to speak about something that many might be afraid to address in this space.
The powers that be implement the code, and we take what we get. It reminds me of of the general social structure of the world. It isn't much different is it? The one's at the top dictate what is good for all of us, and unless people unite with common goals, nothing ever changes. The polarization of society makes it pretty difficult. (People don't agree on things..)
I find you to be someone who does their best on Steem, and you think of creative ways to build community. Regardless of some of the backlash you've received, I can only see it as a projection of other peoples problems. You do a fine job. Don't let this get you down my friend. I hope this doesn't discourage you to the point of quitting. That is a real danger , an implosion of the ecosystem, people will not continually stick around if they get bullied post after post.
Best wishes @crypto.piotr,
@futuremind
Good morning @futuremind
I'm sorry for not replying earlier. I've been sick for couple of days and I'm only slowly catching up with replying to all comments. I surely didn't mean to ignore you and I appreciate your time.
It's sad to know that you think that all I care about is creating dramma. I hope you can see my point of view: this post wasn't about me and about any dramma at all. I tried (in the most polite and mature way) bring up issue that is really affecting many users.
Personally I know several users, who has been affected with mass downvotes and some of them already decided to quit this platform. I still see it as a problem and please allow me to give you another great example: @ulqu3
This user just posted something after being away for quite some time. He then upvoted his publication using bidbots and got heavily downvoted. Which would be okey, as long as someone would bother to inform him why is he being flagged by so many people.
This is the problem I've been trying to underline. It's important to create healthy mindset of those powerful stakeholders. It's not about creating dramma (as you suggested in other comment).
Thank you again for your reply.
Yours,
Piotr
Yes, the drama comment was unfair of me to say. I was wrong for that Piotr. I really don't think you are drama oriented. I was in a shitty mood, and shouldn't have even responded in that moment.
I am sorry for saying that.
I actually very much agree with the downvote problem. If a large stake holder is going to take away someones rewards, they certainly should comment with reason. I really wish downvotes were never implemented into the system to begin with. There are some logical arguments to why they need to be there, but I see mostly negative outcomes from the implementation, and I think a better system could have been designed.
I'm a top stake holder in the weedcash community. It's very specific to cannabis related content. We try to keep it on topic, and we utilize flags when necessary. We have a specific system though, where if a user posts out of context, they get a free pass on the first post. We notify them that they have utilized the tag incorrectly, and no flag is given. If they continue to post out of context, then we flag. Some might even disagree with this system as well, but the idea is to show some compassion, because it could be a new user who just made a mistake. We want to encourage, not discourage.
It's easier in the niche tribe communities that are specific to topics, but not so easy in the main tags, because it comes down to difference of opinion, and we are not all going to agree on things. In this sense, I see flags as inefficient and detrimental to the ecosytem, and as you stated, something that has the potential to influence people to quit completely. That is a loss for steem.
When I say you jumped into the snake pit, I do not mean it in a drama oriented way, and stated it was something that I felt admiration for, because it takes courage to talk about something that could result in flags. I do feel you are pretty courageous.
Thank you again for responding maturely to my rather immature comment.
PS. I hope you are making a quick recovery and feeling better.
Best regards,
@futuremind
Brother @crypto.piotr:
With my little knowledge I can affirm that those negative votes were made by the same person. These downvotes were issued in the same minute of time. These accounts must be related in some way.
Then this "punishment" obeys the criteria of a single "mind."
Do not feel sad about this. It was simply an excessive action of a human being with a lot of SP but without any scruples.
As you know, I had a similar experience of being subjected to downvotes. My response was to simply let it pass. I took a few days off, stayed away, and revitalized my personal motivation and agenda.
Of course, the support I got from you and numerous other Steemit compatriots helped a lot.
It took a while to get over the discouragement, but now I'm back. Once again, I'm enjoying composing posts.
I hope you find yourself re-inspired and rejuvenated. Cheers!
Yeah, I remember your unpleasent experience @majes.tytyty
Did anyone contact you and warned you that using bidbots will be punishable before you received downvotes?
Yours
Piotr
Yes, I was contacted by a Steemer named @lordbutterfly. His message(s) were blunt, rude, and very undiplomatic. At first, I had no idea why he contacted me.
Whatever ... it's in the past now. Let's make the best of the New Steem.
Cheers!
Unfortunatelly lordbutterfly isn't very polite. I also encountered his not really pleasent comments few times.
Hope you're not discouraged @majes.tytyty
Friend @crypto.piotr, a few hours ago comment on your post, then I come and I find this.
Very accurate your words I really think that it is a mistake that should be corrected, I do not understand why someone is censured and punished simply for sharing their opinion regarding the changes made, we need to be more responsible when using the negative feedback for not harm someone who has exemplary behavior within this community.
Strength friend, we must move on, I am sure that this can be solved and these people reflect to withdraw that negative vote.
@fucho80
This is a mature approach and standard, sadly many will fall short.
Posted using Partiko iOS
@smidge-tv why are you downvoting this?
If you look above and read you may figure it out. Everything in life isn't always as it appears.
I agree with you. There is plenty of content I vote for simply because it is good and well written although I am not interested in the subject. I do not care about that. I love to read and it still can be a good read.
The only problem is where to go if they start hunting you to break your neck because it is a great sport or to prove they can? Who will stop this? Where to get your right?
We all are here and invest in Steem.
Some with money, others by writing..
💕
Posted using Partiko Android
Hi @anthonyadavisii
I was just going through some older replies and I realized that I never thanked you for taking the time to write this comment.
Appreciate it a lot,
Piotr
"Let's say you disagree about some conspiracy theory but there is an author on Steem producing content supporting that theory."
I will downvote anything that is a lie like pizzagate. Or that goes against coventional scientific wisdom like Anti Vaccine posts. Its not about opinions or disagreement. This place is a cesspool of disinformation
Think it looks better from the positions of "orthodoxy" to actually articulate a counter argument demonstrating how it is disinformation.
It's easy to dismiss whole theories that are unpopular but takes a bit more effort to attack the underlying supports or things they use to try and substantiate said theory.
Also,I do believe it's healthy for scientific consensus to be challenged so the things we assume to be so can be re-examined. I mean people have believed some wonky shit take blood letting for instance.
That may be so but only someone with some serious comprehension issues would think this is actually a decentralized platform.
You don't have to belong to one particular group the power/decision making is centralized within a minority of the holders.
Your obsession with @berniesanders is pathetic. Get a life.
Your obsession with @berniesanders is pathetic. Get a life.
:D
Your obsession with @berniesanders is pathetic. Get a life.
Hi @crypto.piotr
There is nothing wrong with your article, you ask questionable questions about flagging and many here have answered you. Of course, the meaning of flagging is different from person to person.
I have used flagging myself, but not without reason.
I have always explained and given warnings before going to that step.
In fact, it has also led to some of the warnings I gave to get on the right path and they wanted help understanding what they could do and not do in Steemit.
Some of them are actually my friends today in Steemit.
Flag them without telling why it would be possible for them to get away from this platform and tell their friends about it.
I think everyone needs a warning first about why they can be flagged. And when we give a flag there should be a comment box that we must use before we can access the flag.
Everyone here at Steemit was new users once and many made mistakes including myself.
Flagging someone to use the wrong tag without saying why is the same as not teaching something to others, but putting yourself to the judge without elucidating the case for them
I have also seen that there have been several new small accounts lately that just take advantage of flagging me for no reason.
But I do not want to start a war against them, it will not be right
They do not post and do not respond to inquiries.
Such accounts should be able to be logged and stopped.
I hope you continue with your quality posts and that people will give their support to you.
Dear @xpilar
I only had a chance to read your comment and I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I love that idea! I never thought about it. That could help.
Absolutely! You nailed it!
We're clearly on the same page here. I know that downvotes can (and are) being used by many large stake holders to make steemit a better place, but it's obvious that there is huge room for abuse and there is very little (or nothing) we can do to prevent that.
My goal was to point out the problem. Problem which really exist. I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Absolutely appreciate it. Enjoy your weekend,
Piotr
Yes, we share the same thoughts @crypto.piotr
While I understand that downvoting may be necessary in some extreme cases, what I suspect will happen is that instead of tackling the real abusers, easy targets will be picked off while the worst offenders continue unmolested because they're too big to take on.
To avoid that you can downvote thosre posts if they do not follow the rules. I doubt it will hurt them but at least you are honest.
If it comes to downvoting the rules are for everyone.
💕
Posted using Partiko Android
Late thank you for dropping by and for your comment @deirdyweirdy
Enjoy your weekend, Piotr
I'm tempted to downvote this post based on the sensationalism I'm reading.
I am thrilled to see content like this hasn't been boosted up to the trending page with paid votes, so it can sit there, disguised as popular opinion, and mislead members into feeling things like fear. When someone like you, Crypto.piotr, does such a thing, those actions have the potential to create far more damage than what you claim to be damaging. Personally, I think you know that.
Personally seeing you reside on trending for what use to be a six, seven dollar fun shit post now making thirty or over is doing more damage. You probably couldn't write such a constructive post as this one. (which I know you can but that sock isn't trending)
Seeing you come here and insult me, all while accusing me of bullshit with your lies, doesn't surprise me, because you've done it often.
Um I wouldn't quite say it's bullshit when the last time I saw you on trending last week the word shit was actually in the headline of one of your post, every investor wants to say that's exactly what I was looking for a site with a poster who has the intellectual stimuli to use the word shit in the headings of their post. I heard their practically breaking down the door trying to invest now.
I am sure if there was a contest to see who can use the word shit most on this site you'd surely come in as the top contender.
I expect now your ultra sensitive easily triggered self will follow this up with one of your usually threats to use your power to intimidate me, as that's your usual course of power.
There you go with more of your bullshit.
Nope. That's just the lies you tell yourself. And you believe it for some reason. On a blockchain yet. Everyone can go check our history and watch how insulting and abusive you are. I have nothing to hide, and you're a nutcase. You have the reputation of a troll here. The only one who doesn't know that is you. The things you say mean nothing. It's just the delusional ramblings of a psychopath.
Why don't you explain where the relationship deteriorated?....something as simple as making a child's comparison artwork to your own and you got all offended. Super offended. I'll flag you offended. Get off my site control freak offended. You are what's wrong with this platform....your the only one who can offend, insult, and write crappy stuff and if someone comes along with a joke about anything you write their out. So please do start with posting that bit of artwork by my granddaughter, along with the comments so everyone can see exactly what kind of character you are.
You think I have the reputation of a troll here....that's how delusional you are, it's suppose to be a censorship free platform where people can say what they feel, it's people like you with all your sock minions that would prefer it's memorex and not live. At least what I say I put some meaning behind...I don't ramble on about piles of shit this and shit that.
You were offended when I asked you kindly to not accuse me of being a plagiarist. I had explained that even though I knew you were joking, others reading wouldn't know, so I thought it would be best to leave that joke aside. You went on and on and on and on to the point where I became frustrated with you because it was a simple request.
It deteriorated further when you began accusing me of having sock puppet accounts, calling my art shit, saying my posts are idiotic, yadda yadda yadda, a constant barrage of insults that continue to this day.
Fuck off already. Everything is on the goddamn blockchain for all to see. You accuse me of things and never offer an ounce of proof yet I can back up my claims and prove you're nothing but a piece of shit towards me every time you feel like speaking to me. Just fuck off. Can you understand? You've put yourself in a position to give me no reason at all to like you. Fuck off. You are a nutcase troll. Nothing but a negative piece of shit. I don't want you in my life. You're toxic. Leave me alone.
This post made the Daily Hit Parade for "most commented post"
https://steemit.com/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-20190904
Downvotes can be abused, but they have already done a lot of good. Hundreds of dollars in rewards have been returned to the pool instead of going to people who just milk them with self-votes or buy buying votes on junk posts. I could find you plenty of examples. I have seen some people threaten to 'rage quit' because they got flagged, but in some cases they bought massive votes on low quality posts. That is not good for Steem as it sets a bad example. Some of the vote sellers are not happy either as they are losing business, but they will have to adapt. There are still ways to make money.
No system is perfect, but this is what we have now.
I have not had them lately, but your transfer memos are a form of spam. If you have something to say then make a comment and take the risk on it being downvoted.
It looks like you were just downvoted by one person with multiple accounts.
I fear to downvote some of the abusers because they have waaaay more steem power they have over 100k in some cases, even if I am in the right they might just bring me to 0 for spite
There are plenty who have a lot less as they keep powering down to buy more votes. If more people do this then it is not practical to retaliate.
I would say you should consider not giving your own comment such a big vote. That may be seen as greedy and attract downvotes. #NewSteem is about helping others. You still get curation rewards.
I see you are already getting downvoted. It may be worth rethinking your strategy. Steem has changed.
Bullshit. Why don't you go write Whatsup that line of crap.
Late thank you for dropping by and for your comment @steevc
I totally agree, I think Steemit has lost its way a bit unfortunately.
When I first started on Steemit I was under the impression right or wrong you could post whatever you liked uncensored which I know you can but there are people who could ruin your account if they disagree with you just because they have more money than you, Rant over . Cheers mike
I appreciate your comment
Thx for dropping by @mikenevitt
I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr
Excellent example.
Why do we have self-appointed copyright police (vigilantes)?
Thank you for your comment
That's just the way this system is build @logiczombie
Hi my friend,
I wanted to write a post on the subject as well but finally left it be... Thanks a lot for picking this up. What we live on steem at the moment is simply sad...
Downvotes give power of the powerful
These free downvotes are like the oppression tool of bigger accounts over small ones. Small accounts are too scared to downvote anybody having more SP than them.
Downvotes are not necessary
Among the powerful accounts I see this belief that these downvotes have to be used. It is seen as a kind of responsibility to protect steem. There is no such responsibilty if there is no abuse! Downvotes should only be used when there is abuse.
Bid bots try to adapt but they are shot down
Bit bots try to change. I just wrote a post and got a manually curated upvote from smartsteem. I was very happy about it but within seconds I got a powerful downvote from another whale. Bit bot services that try to change their business model are shot down by others.
At the moment it is like the far west where the one with the biggest gun wins. In the end these downvotes will make people leave the platform. There will be less content and in the end there will be nothing to upvote...
We had downvotes before HF21 and seldom used them. Even though there are some free downvotes available we should only use them when we see real abuse.
If we start to downvote because we don't like the content of posts, we will soon land in the same world than youtube where only the most popular contents gets visibility. Steem is/was a wonderful world where there was place for everybody and it would really suck if this plurality was lost.
Yes agreed.
Like James Bond said:
“Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action”. ― Ian Fleming.
If you are trigger happy you are bound to shoot someone who is innocent.
The bid bots are not shot down, they come up with something else read between the lines please here and will always find an other way to earn.
You think those who write 10 posts of 5 lines a day and selfvote only or buy to make up to 20 Steem or more give up that easily on their earnings?
🤔
There is a lot to think about.
💕
Posted using Partiko Android
I am agree with you regarding bot and downvote
Dear @achim03
I only had a chance to read your comment and I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Indeed. That's also how I see it.
Very sad, however very true. Problem which really exist. I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Absolutely appreciate it. Enjoy your weekend,
Piotr
Someplace @themarkymark had given an explanation of why downvotes. He was talking about whaleshares where since no downvote is allowed, people post images with no content to rape the reward pool.. And no one can do anything.
Also, if you look at the benefits at the moment, most downvotes even from a minnow goes against bid bot users.. Therefore, gives a bit of leverage in the hands of everyone.. Though, a smaller guy down voting may not be as big as a whale doing so..
I get your argument on what could go wrong but right now the experience is otherwise.. So it's not that bad.
Posted using Partiko Android
Dear @oivas
I'm sorry for such a late reply. I've been sick for past few days and I'm just catching up.
I know that downvotes can (and are) being used by many large stake holders to make steemit a better place, but it's obvious that there is huge room for abuse and there is very little (or nothing) we can do to prevent that.
My goal was to point out the problem. Problem which really exist. I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr
Sad to hear about ulqu.. I think I just read a post from whatageek as well where he was upset with few downvotes.. With everyone capable of down voting it can certainly go either way.. 🤪
Let's hope for the best and hope to have SMTs soon!
Posted using Partiko Android
I've read post by @whatageek and I really hope you won't give up on steemit
No, I won't @crypto.piotr. 😊 😊
Posted using Partiko Android
Hello Piotr:
Wow!
Brother, I'm seeing your post, it has three hours of you publishing it and it's hidden by low grades.
You have tremendous negative votes from: z8teyb289qav9z, ngc, abusereports, berniesanders76, thecyclist and sirvotesalot.
Apparently this issue you addressed has great sensitivity for these people.
Definitely there is sensura in Steemit.
It is a pity that the voices are silenced, tolerance is not practiced. We are not mature enough to understand and respect the opinion of our fellow man, even if we do not share it.
Paraphrasing Stan Lee:
"Great power implies great Responsibility..."
I think a great power has been placed in the hands of the users but we have no real responsibility to use it correctly.
Your friend, Juan.
Thanks for your help :)
There is a reason other social sites removed downvotes, dislikes, etc... It's just too negative for most people to handle. People like to go places that make them feel good. People will stop showing up here if it makes them feel badly, regardless if they can earn a few pennies. I think overall the free downvotes will end up doing more harm than good but that won't be completely apparent until precisely what you described here happens down the road. While trying to police the reward pool we lost sight of trying to grow the pie and make it appeal to more and more people. I feel we are doing the opposite.
100% agree with you.
The Bill always comes dueDear @jondoe
Late thank you for your comment. Appreciate it. I only had a chance to read it right now.
Yours,
Piotr
Personally feel that
Opponents should pay a higher price,
such as
Affirmative votes are deducted by 2% of mana.
That negative votes should be deducted 20% of the mana.
@everyone
Requesting everyone reading this to resteem this post just to show that "mass-downvoting" or whatever it is called is not something we tolerate. We have to stand up with each other and question what's going on.
And what is up with Steemit not showing post due to "low rating". Will they not even give the post a chance to claim back the support?
Already done that :-)
It is the power of infinity, it shows that anything can happen, no matter if it is bad or good, it has the same probability of occurrence; that and more will happen in this city as it is an emerging phenomenon, it is uncontrollable.
I took my time to read most of the comments in this publication, but this only confirms to me what I was thinking about the HF.
This is the worst change that has been made here. As in any totalitarian regime they speak about control and improvements, but their design encourages the oppression by the stronger ones with all their capricious irresponsible decisions.
There are mad and disrespectful people everywhere, but the social systems may be arranged to stop their madness or to encourage it. The design of the last HF —with its happy downvoting feature and its disrespect to authors— is encouraging mad and unhealthy interactions.
The downvotes you received are simply an expression of shameless censorship. They carried their message very clearly: We are the masters, we decide which opinions are acceptable... and yours is not. Their love for dictatorship is evident.
They even didn't care about the good intentions and the good spirit of the reflections your brought. This is how they treat the best members of Steemit, the most respectful and dedicated authors. This is how they say that they don't care about the quality of our relations here.
They have the power... hence they don't care.
Dear @spirajn
Thank you for your great comment. I appreciate your time.
We're clearly on the same page here. I know that downvotes can (and are) being used by many large stake holders to make steemit a better place, but it's obvious that there is huge room for abuse and there is very little (or nothing) we can do to prevent that.
My goal was to point out the problem. Problem which really exist. I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr
The idea behind it might be good, but now it's being used in an evil way. Sad to note that lots of whales won't even bother commenting on this. People just try to avoid being caught in the crosshairs.
Posted using Partiko Android
Thank you for your kind comment @fredkese
I think the free downvote has been a refreshing addition to the blockchain and has really given more control over curation and limiting expoits of reward farmers. It also provides a better engagement metric for users to see how content resonates with people and not just positive reinforcement. We this on YouTube and Reddit and it works well there
Like any system, there is room for abuse and flag wars etc but we have to accept that no change comes without an element of abuse.
Its also seen a shift to manual curation and I'm seeing more rewards going to authors who I personally feel should be rewarded. I just want to see more engagement on posts, I think its still pretty lacking
Also instead of the wallet memos perhaps you should also take advantage of the various promotion services now available on tribe sites and via eSTEEM app
Dear @chekohler
Thank you for your comment and sharing your thoughts. I fully agree that downvotes can serve great purpose. Hope there will be less and less situations like the one described in my post.
Indeed. That's a good direction so far.
I'm already using steem-bounty and promotions on PALnet and SteemLeo. Any other recommendations?
Memos are still the most efficient way, however I'm already sending them only to those who follow me (the way few other larger accounts has been doing).
Again thank you for your feedback,
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr
It's me again
Just wanted to underline, that I know that downvotes can (and are) being used by many large stake holders to make steemit a better place, but it's obvious that there is huge room for abuse and there is very little (or nothing) we can do to prevent that.
My goal was to point out the problem. Problem which really exist. I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Yours, Piotr
That's true its becoming a war zone for the rich. It's very annoying at times because people like us have no power to fight back or even defend ourselves.
The reputation system is currently so busted that it should be completely removed from the Steem blockchain, no bytes should be wasted on it! Instead each dApp can come up with their own system that ranks users on the things that matter to that particular dApp (some dApps already do this).
@cryptogee, looks like Bern dawg got another one.
Conspiracy theory: ngc is "acting" as the blockchain villain or bully so people hoping to "defeat" him will buy Steem. His antagonistic role is intended to coax a would-be hero onto the chain.
Hi @anthonyadavisii
Who is Bern dawg?
ps. I'm not sure if it would work if you "defeat" someone by overpowering opponents that greately.
I seriously wish to know what in my publication triggered this team-flagging.
Thx for your comment,
Piotr
You're telling me you are not aware of the persona known as BernieSanders? He may very well be a team of people for all we know but can't say for sure.
He also runs a witness and is probably the most notorious vindictive downvoters on the chain.
Sorry that happened to you. I took a light DVing from his (of their) accounts a while back for saying the wrong thing in a comment.
I mentioned @cryptogee as he wrote a series when he was targeted with DVs for getting on Bernie's bad side.
Hi @anthonyadavisii
I've been always staying away from drama and flag wars. My goal was to engage with like-minded people and so far I was doing well :)
Im guessing I need to learn about few more things I wasn't aware until now.
ps.
Imagine that I have some friends, some of them with decent amount of SP. And i've tons of engagement and my own quite large stake. And I cannot do anything to protect myself.
What smaller accounts can do? I will carry on as usual, but many new users would give up right away.
I will check out @cryptogee right away. Thx again buddy
Piotr
downvotes are censorship, tout court, if you dont like someone you can ignore them, its been abuse of power from the start by a very small group of rich fucks pushing their vision and NOW expecting "the masses" to onboard to come fix it and "just buy it and dont ask questions" (as literally read on twitter, as if this is a cult or something with the sole use of feeding the top 20)
downvotes are detrimental, no fucking major brand in his right mind will enter here when direct competitors or "conglomerates" as piotr describes here can just WRECK THEIR FUCKING MONEY STRAIGHT AWAY ... how that does not get through to the walled-off brains of the upper echelon here, i have no clue and pardon my french but when they say masses they mean middle classes and they probably dont realized but they talk about people as if its their duty to pay for THEIR bills lol ... treat them like workhorses and serfs, not clients ... they probably blind to that because they're always stuck in their little niche and very likely were born rich
but thats exactly how it sounds , having people clog up or selling their downvotes they dont use was simply inevitable after this ... so ... i wont bring a friend and some money because i already know nobody wants to pay to post puppies and see the money sold off the next day in the name of bills from america :)
tsch ...
Sorry for such a late reply and thank you for your kind comment @goldmanmorgan
Enjoy your weekend :)
Piotr
Its obvious to my mind that there is now a new elite here that have been communicating a hell of a lot behind the scenes, because stinc has obviously abandoned ship and been replaced with a skeleton crew that nobody even hears back from in replies, not to mention a measly amount of sp in the accounts.
I cant actually be bothered to say anything else, but i do regret ever promoting steemit to people, luckily only one person invested money into it and it happened to be my mum hahahah.. I felt the need to cover the money she spent (1000 gbp @2 usd per steem) and buy her Btc Ltc and Ada instead hahahahahahah
Let em have it, I would rather have a life of living instead of sat in room at a screen :P
Dear @movingman
I'm sorry for such a late reply. I've been sick for past few days and I'm just catching up.
Is that you feel about STINC?
It seem that you're more frustrated with steemit than I already am lol :) Anyway hope you will stick around.
Cheers, Piotr
Hope your back to good heth again!I have mixed feelings, but its just wierd how the steemit team have been replaced with new people that have no sp, and also dont reply to many people 😂
Even the hf helps just the ones with mass amounts of sp, and how easy it is now to have multiple accounts and to earn more curation from them. Whales can just 'scratch eachothers backs' and still benefit much more than small accounts. It is what it is, anarco capitalism and everyone does have the right to do as they please with their own money (sp). I guess everyone will go to trending, see who dont get downvoted for bidbot abuse, and then go from there to set up autovoting for the best curation rewards, which by the way, wont decentralize steem, it will just give more votes to the already large sp holders..
I am powering down and transferring the steem I have to savings for a rainy day, and will buy new steem soon, or even better, just use actifit to earn steem 😁
We shall see! It turns out that im highly sensitive to EMF, and its getting worse with 5G networks ect. I wasnt online before I was shown steemit, and soon i will be also boycotting tech (just not using it daily)
Dear @movingman
Thank you for that amazing comment. Appreciate your time and energy.
I'm a bit confused. Did anyone from steemit team have been really replaced? I know that HF21 gaved power to large stakeholders, but STINC team seem to be intact.
You nailed it here buddy.
And Im confused again. You're powering down steem and you will buy new steem? You've lost me here :)
Anyway I really hope you're not planning to give up on this platform
Hope you're gonna have an easy monday :)
Yours,Piotr
Hahahahaha..
Why not! The steem I have was all paid for when i should have been stacking sats ;) its tainted and I want to save it for a rainy day with no 13 week powerdown. Its there to sell in a few years when steem recovers to a decent price again(laughing whilst i typed that!).. I still work and live with hardly anycosts so im injecting money into crypto often, and when the time is right I shall re-invest into newsteem (stealth hashtag)..
I think very alternative to everyone else, and so to most it wouldnt make sense I guess.. I dont like to sit at a screen often and before steem I was not on any social media for a long time :)
Hello! I don't know what to say... I'm really afraid of this.
Some time ago, I had been downvoted for an account randomly.
This is scary... you've got to be careful buddy, you could be a target for a massive downvote...
So, maybe we have to move to another platform? Whaleshare? Publish0x?
I'm afraid to say something and get flagged :/
well that took only 4 hours to get censored for speaking against the feudal lords, sorry to this @crypto.piotr , but this is q.e.d. , right ? hope you didnt put your money into promoting, i have no idea how this can be considered abuse so its downright censorship and probably soon after another person who actually works on his posts lost because this way there's nothing to it, right ?
really sad, not one week into it and it already shows what they should have known from the start would happen : increased neo-flagwars and formation of downvote cartels who dictate what can be said and what not ... im not wasting one cent on promotion until all of this is fixed
Very well said. Even as a mid-size account, I’m afraid to post...worried that someone or some group will wipe me out. I use promotion services as much for ROI as to give curators full vote value...it doesn’t mean I put less “brain” into my posts. I am forced to do this by the new rules. How is that my bad?
it says on the frontpage "post shit : get money" ... no need to excuse yourself about it ... this post has been censored four hours after already, as you say people wil be afraid to speak their own mind as the cartels coagulate and downvote EVERYTHING thats not their way ... you are absollutely correct, sir and with this we probably lose someone who puts a lot of work into making posts and marketing EXACTLY how they always prescribed how it is done ...
as for me ? that would cost me 3 cents as i dont spend one iota on promotion until this debacle is fixed ... the rich will soon find out whales need plankton or they starve = lol, sorry for @crypto.piotr here, but so much for this "opensource" "decentralized" democratically governed very very little niche on crypton. Passive is the way to go but what if no one risks posting but the cartels who silence everyone ?
its a disaster so far and i think the hate is just breeding b/c vendettas will soon be all over the place and the age of grumpycat and haejin will soon look like strawberry fields ...
Late thank you for dropping by and for your comment @definethedollar
I wonder what's your impression about HF21 right now?
Enjoy your weekend, Piotr
Facebook has never had a dislike/ downvote option...
Posted using Partiko Android
Dear @crypto.piotr
Wow Really, my friend, I have no words and I don't know what to say. It's scary what is happening with your publication.
I know what it feels like, when I had a month inside steemit. I made a comment and in that comment they placed a flag on me.
That was terrible for me, the problem was, I made a very flat comment that seemed to be made by a bot, that did not like the person to whom I made the comment later and talk to him I apologize, I could prove that it was not a bot and then I take off my flags. Today he is a good friend and we are always in touch.
I know what that is, really seeing that you got negative votes I felt it and reminded me of my experience.
Sometimes I have seen some people who give negative votes, but definitely those people deserve it since it is very obvious that they copy and use photos without placing the source and things like that are very brazen, to that type of person if they owe place flag
Now the question is why they did that to you ..
Friend, I really want this problem solved.
I send you a big hug my good friend .. for you and for your whole family
Hello dear leader @crypto.piotr, great article.
I think we begin to see the negative effects and the consequences of a change introduced without necessity, who needs negative votes? But beyond that, there must be the conscience of those who have the power to punish people for a crime committed, and you summed it up very well, actions that are not considered crimes. Or is there a steemit manual that typifies the crime and contemplates the magnitude of the sanction? ...
If we have introduced many changes so far to "improve" the operation of the platform, because not to introduce a new Hard fork to correct something that begins to become one of the biggest mistakes, and is not a criticism against the system, it is the denunciation of an unfair fact.
Friend, we should echo news like this and try to get the attention of those who have the power to change this unfortunate situation.
Blessings leader, keep moving forward without stopping.
@fucho80
i hAve cOmE t0 ErAse ThOse EvIL DownVotes bY @berniesanders
oH sHiT tHAT EsCALAteD FaSt
iM oUT
lol
I realized that people only downvote each other when they don't like another's content or they are having a conflict with others.
Good points and probably a potential target for downvotes! ;)
I think it was @briggsy who posted an idea in a post a couple days ago where he was questioning/appealing to people with dusty old, unchecked witness votes. I am guilty of that as well.
He was downvoted into $0 because they felt it was not a good idea and harmful for the platform.
So someone who thought of and articulated an idea for discussion for the betterment of the blockchain has all rewards erased because someone disagreed?
Why not take the time to address and discuss like a business owner would who had gotten a bad review on his google business profile?
Anyhow, we like to bitch but there is wisdom in the ranks of the witnesses. I know things will take a while to settle in the new steem and I hope the wisdom will prevail.
Posted using Partiko iOS
That's just so awful :/
Sorry for such a late reply and thank you for your kind comment @zekepickleman
Enjoy your weekend :)
Piotr
IF i met a person in real life I do not like - I go away. I do not tell him what to do or not to do. It´s his life.
IF I see a blogpost I do not like - I go away. I do not have to downvote him because maybe someone else like the post.
Downvote and make some downvote-war? I do not like it.
Who will descide what is good or bad content?
I tried to explain steemit for a friend and tell him that DO NOT USE WRONG TAG because people wil downvote you and get angry. That is "freedom" at internet...Sounds so weird.
Late BIG THX for your supportive comment @minimining
Yours, Piotr
I have agreed at all times that a warning should be given before any action.
The said account's reputation is back to 40.
Your images are not shown due to low ratings. Wonder what that means? No explanation or link to explanation given.
Dear @devann
Have a look at what happened with my own publication. For no reason it has been downvoted by few powerful accounts and all SP in rewards (none coming from bots) were cleared out.
Over half million SP behind downvotes, without any explanation why I was flagged so hard.
Sad :( Im so discouraged today .....
Piotr
Injustice, leader, pure injustice, we must recover someone should help solve this.
Hi friend
definitely a solid topic to talk about.
I think downvote is good, provided its used wisely and with proper reason and action. This is introduced to stop abuse only so if we found any users abusing the platform then we should leave a comment first. Just because one don't like the post then should not downvote and its wrong. If this will happen then we will lots of people leaving platform who are victim of this downvote.
Everything has its pros and cons and if this feature is used in right matter then it will help steem it become even better and vice-versa.
I have seen few posts having high rewards are downvoted for no reason and I guess its because people think that post is not worth that much reward. Its a tricky question and I hope in coming days we can have better understanding about it.
Thansks @crypto.piotr
Dear @alokkumar121
I'm sorry for such a late reply. I've been sick for past few days and I'm just catching up.
We're clearly on the same page here. I know that downvotes can (and are) being used by many large stake holders to make steemit a better place, but it's obvious that there is huge room for abuse and there is very little (or nothing) we can do to prevent that.
My goal was to point out the problem. Problem which really exist. I can even give another example: ulqu3 - he has been away from steemit for a longer while. Came back, posted something and used bidbots to boost his post to trending page. He got number of heavy downvotes, but noone bothered to tell him what did he do wrong. Not even one warning or explanation.
I already know several similar examples and it's not hard to imagine and understand, that many of those users will quit steemit. And that worries me.
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr
Great post as always. Very thoughtful insight into how Steem works now. With whale abuse on the main chain, tribes are affected because whatever SteemitInc and whales do on the main chain impact the price of the sub-communities. Steempeak has made it easier to see the bigger picture.
Each hardfork was a so called fight against abusement.
HF20 against scam etc
HF21 plus follow up against bad content (not only plagiarism) and bidbots.
You know the expresdion: If you csnnot beat them join them?
If no one downvotes or wsrns for bring downvoted if... this will go on and get worse. So use your downvotes and say why.
The example given by you is no exception and seldom just one post. You are on someone's blacklist and all your posts will be downvoted.
A good question is: What will you do?
Me? I fight and leave. There are better/more places. I am not here for the big money but this is my hobby.
I wish some whale could answer the question what all whales (300?) will do if they are the only ones left.
Who will feed them?
What I find most annoying is the lack of answer, no reason given. I have doubts about the amount of plagiarism. Steemit wants good content, no twitter site but on the other hand their definition of good content is each post that earns 20 Steem or more.
Might be the bitbots are gone but already other options are available. Those who fight for good content, write their fingers off will not be rewarded only take the risk their neck will be broken. Steemit is happy with that. They sacrifice the users so they do not need to check out if the downvote (flag) is deserved.
What will you do? If you do not need your downvotes you give more power to the whales.
🤔💕
Posted using Partiko Android
Late BIT THX for your supportive comment @wakeupkitty
Yours, Piotr
In short, it still leaves in evidence that the negative votes will only be used to convenience. Unfortunately, the way it now seems cloudy. Greetings @crypto.piotr.
this post is not an abuse, actually using your flagging power against an idea is a clear example for abuse! and thanks to HF21 now you can flag more!!
if steemit cannot tolerate such posts and content, we shouldn't wonder the price of STEEM tokens...
The problem isn't the downvoting itself. The problem is the cost of it. Currently you get 2.5 free downvotes and 10 upvotes per day. Those numbers seem way too off for me. I can at least understand the argument for 1 free downvote per day (I don't agree with it. But I see why someone would propose such a thing)
Everything is made worse with the non-linear voting curve where larger stake holders have disproportionate voting power. This EIP was a mess and it shouldn't have happened in the first flace. The SCOT Tribes and future SMTs would have taken care of the problem.
Dear @vimukthi
I'm sorry for such a late reply. I've been sick for past few days and I'm just catching up.
You nailed it.
Enjoy your weekend buddy,
Cheers, Piotr