Instead of creating an entirely new play mode (which would be a pretty big project), what if we instead tried implementing anti-bot measures in Modern format only? This would be much, much easier to actually implement and try out and bots would still have a format with 50% of the rewards that they can participate in (Wild).
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There are more bots in Modern, so maybe the other way around? Anti-bot measures in Wild and let them bot in Modern?
In general I would agree, but in wild there are already so many cards available per battle that it will get harder and arder for humans to manage.
That's one the the reasons why I suggested this.
I can see pros and cons of both, I would rather have anti-bot measures in Wild but at this point I am okay with both.
Wild being a free-for-all makes more sense to me. Human players there can gain an edge simply by having a wider range of cards to choose from. Modern on the other hand is where the new players go, and where we really care about new user experience.
I do believe Modern having the anti-bot measures is the best option mainly because newer players will mostly be going to play Modern and having people win more in Modern would directly encourage more players to play in the long run. We don't want the "entry" mode to be the hard mode in games.
Botting already has minimal entry right now w/ all the cheap cards available to be used in Modern so once botting moves to Wild they'll need to rent a lot more cards to farm the next reward sets more effectively which in turn would get exponentially more expensive for them to do so with each new set launched which could discourage those who don't own much of the cards to still bot in Wild.
I like many of the others that have responded here, I think bots belong more in Wild than Modern. Modern to me is where the 'current' game scene is and for other TCGs it is what tournaments etc are based on. In this case I think keeping it largely human only is a good move.
The current Modern bots will have no issues moving into Wild and we will simply see a rental shift change of the types of cards they are renting out which should increase the value of Alpha/Beta etc since to my understanding bots are currently the largest body of card renters.
I do see the downside though in that those modern bots will now be taking part in the Wild SPS pool which means that in general all WILD battles will yield less SPS per battle as the total amount of SPS will be divided up into a now larger base of battles. This push however is probably good for the game however as it further incentivizes players to constantly 'reinvest' into new card sets.
I think the less SPS per battle would only apply to bots/players in the lower leagues. Most players in wild in those lower leagues are top 200 battle for EOS leaderboards and many are using owner/delegation bot accounts in there already and would have a choice to either expect a reduced pool spread throughout the season or go up a league and choose to chase bigger rewards during season over leaderboard battles. For many, it's the same names getting top positions each season anyway so I don't think they'd care too much tbh. As a wild only player I don't see modern bots as a threat at all. And I think if modern bots really want to continue in wild, they are going to struggle to get past the player bots who have a much higher owned/delegated spread of cards. Even playing my alts in bronze and silver trounce these modern bots that venture to wild chasing bigger rewards in lower leagues with just a handful of extra max league lvld cards from earlier editions.
Thats a good point. I'm not 100% sure how the SPS pool is split among leagues but assumed that an increase in battles in the lower leagues would still impact the amount of SPS available for higher leagues. If each league has its own sub-pool however than I could see higher leagues not being impacted.
Why are we all accepting this as the only way? yes, it would be more work, but a split where you can bot in both modern and wild, but split the rewards in half as the original proposal states is a much better, much more equitable. yes, we want new players to have a good experience, but you are basically pidgeon-holing them to only be able to play in modern. probably the majority of people will naturally take that path, but why force them? more work does not necessarily mean that it's the wrong way. and then all these conversations about which league to change are rendered moot. it is the right way to do it imo but we are all settling for a sub-par idea so we can get it faster. speed ain't necessarily our friend here.
Putting anti-bot measures in modern fits the ethos of the leagues: modern = latest sets, and latest rules (anti-bot). Wild = anything goes
I agree to your suggestion. How do you want me to proceed? Should I edit this pre-proposal? Should I create a new one? Or, as it does not strictly fall under the purview of the DAO, do you want to bypass any vote altogether? I appreciate your reply and am willing to proceed however you wish.
I would edit the pre-proposal - that's basically what the pre-proposal period is for, getting feedback and making updates before the real vote begins. Also, thank you for submitting this, it seems like it has some very real support and will be great to see how the community feels about this idea.
I've updated the pre-proposal. Thank you for giving the community such a strong tool to voice their concerns and effect change. If you want me to update the pre-proposal any further please let me know. When I went to submit this proposal I was warned that I was opening myself up for a lot of hate. Actually I haven't experienced anything but valid criticism, serious discussion, and a lot of community support. I'd like to thank everyone in this ecosystem for their kindness and for their votes, whether for or against. Awesome to see a community like this!
I agree so much with that, this is not the proposal i voted for with all my accounts, totally different beast i can not agree with at all :-(
No, that's exactly what this "pre-proposal" stage is for. It's to get feedback and make changes before the proposal goes to an official vote. If someone makes changes at the last minute then the proposal will fail in the official vote (assuming the community doesn't like it). I think people are putting too much weight on the pre-proposal votes.
i think that would be a hard pain for the people who support the proposal but own old decks. that would probably bring the biggest supporters of this proposal to no!
Yes, I still own all these old cards like Prince Rennyn, Valnamore etc. (all GF) and would like to use them against human opponents, but to have something which is at least better than nothing I would still vote in favour of this new version of the proposal.
I wont change my vote, but I must admit this is a hard pill to swallow
this is a much better idea than doing nothing. i would love a full anti bot game though. thats the gamer mentality. no bots, no helpers.
would it be possible to allow the player to choose who they play? Humans only, or they don't care and play anyone? Let the market decide. If no one wants to play bots then the bots will have to wait for matches. If people don't care who they play then no change.
That sounds much more reasonable than having three or four leagues!
cool! either or
I think this proposal will be passed because most of the mavs or big names in SL plays in wild because because they have all the resources haha nice one. This is not bias proposal
Quite a change in the proposal Matt, i fully supported the idea thinking 1/3th less rewards would be acceptable but as all bots and many OG's will go Wild, looks like it more be of a 2/3th reduction, that's a bit hard to start off you know.
I didn't make the proposal, I just made a suggestion to make the proposal actually feasible and the author decided to take it. It's up to the community if they want to pass it or not, and if people like the original version better then anyone is free to propose that.
You are fine with Bots why ''try'' to get rid of them lmao
#yabapmatt What if...bot would be implemented into game. BUT, bot learns from your own (human) gaming history. So, you play more and better, more you can use bot when you ain't got time to play. And there should be certain number of bot rounds per day. Good or bad idea?
Dude you are using bots for so long!. A long time ago i thought you are the best SL-player and i was happy to win 1 or 2 out of 10 against you (beta card times). It was a big disappoinment to find out you were not but your bot is! At that time perhaps 10% of accounts used a bot but even then you were one of them. So please cry less!
Haha, i was a top 3 player for long time without bot and i look in a way forward to having a non-bot league to play again, i also upvoted the pre-proposal for that reason. It's only when other bots came on the scene and occupied the whole top 10, that i started making and using a bot. All my playing knowledge is into that bot, that's why it's the best bot out there 😜
I am not crying, I am just warning Matt that the changed proposal is maybe a bit too drastic for all the O.G.'s still there because of the bot service, they might leave when they see better returns else where and if that happens, we will all cry because market will collapse with selling pressure. Splinterlands' main sale income also still comes from these guys. I cross fingers land might then still be a good option for them to park their cards and gain passive income.
Hey Bubke thanks for the reply and to be fair i get your point! Lets hope all goes well.
We already out when Aggy said stupid shit pre OCT 2022
Don't know if you'll read this but what about novice and bronze leagues for bots? We likely wont always have players in there for human battles. That would be challenging.
I think the goal of this proposal is to give you the latitude to handle it how you think would be best. So your solution to this proposal would be acceptable to me.
@theukm can you please reply to @yabapmatt if you are ok with his solution? Also if you are, then I think you can add an "edit" to your proposal referencing Yabapmatt's comments and that's an acceptable solution if we vote for this.
It feels like we are moving forward. Thanks to both @theukm and @yabapmatt for their efforts.
don't you think we would lose the biggest supporters of the proposal? because they are almost all people with old big decks!
I think getting something done is the purpose. If Matt is willing to add any new features to prevent paying out SPS to bots from any form of play then its worth trying. Only until we try things can we then later adjust.
So whether it starts in Modern or in Wild, whether its the old league or the new league, at the end of the day its a start.
The goal is to try to find space where humans can compete and play against other humans. Once we find out how to do that, then it can be applied anywhere in any format. The DAO can then decide what makes sense in terms of what is the right mix of SPS to human vs human and human/bot modes.
I hope we can move forward and quit worrying about it being perfect. We will learn what works and what doesn't, which by itself will be a HUGE improvement and a big step for the future of the game.
i mean all the bots from modern would switch over to wild the wild players are trapped in wild. which would mean that all of a sudden the wild reward pool would be sucked in by a lot more people. and as we know when it comes to reward cuts the approval is gone very quickly. i understand that this would be better for the team to implement. but it would dramatically increase the risk in my opinion that the proposal would be rejected.
and if the proposal is then rejected we have achieved nothing!
I think people need to consider something with regards to potential reward cuts in Wild as a result of this proposal. Most modern bots wont get high enough to siphon significant rewards not without fighting over limited supplies of pre modern rentals. In my experience in Wild bronze, silver and gold, most bots in there are player owned/delegated with a much bigger deck spread. If modern bots want to compete with that, they are going to need to rent a bucketload more cards (at what expense?) or do what most player owned bots do and actually own the cards to be financially competetive with reward return (which is a good thing and a thing most anti-botters like myself do not have grievance with or in the least willing to accept this concession for botting as it botting with intention to re-invest into the games economy). Renting 100 cards in Wild for a silver deck for example is going to hopefully put the siphoners out of business while the modern botters with aims for growth, ownership and re-investment would eventually come out the winners with every card purchase they tick off on their ownership lists. Not to mention when land staking drops, the available card pop for wild would drop even more as whales who currently rent out significant amounts of cards remove their high end PP rentals to place on land.
we will see. I hope it doesn't. As long as we have a human to human league... AND a human and bot league, then we will get a lot of great information that will help the game.
I hope it passes and I hope people can see the bigger picture.
i hope that even if the proposal will fail due to this change. that the team in the future takes into account that a large part of the community wants a bot free zone!
yep, my thoughts exactly @bronko
Sad life you have Dave.. They said botting is allowed for many years and even OG players do it :D
Matt or Aggy can play White Hats all they want they used 10.000 Bot Farm to get some matches early on + more sketchy stuff but hey am probably rude
Is the team switching from bot agnostic to leaning toward anti bot? People made decisions based on the previous stance. The market wants bots and trying to remove them will either lead to it going underground or players leaving I feel.
First, this is a vote for the DAO to decide and not the team. The DAO controls the SPS distribution.
Regarding what the market wants, I would disagree. The price of the SPS, cards, DEC, etc have all been going down ever since the bots entered the game in force and started dominating the gameplay.
But you can have your own opinion of course. I personally feel the exact opposite as you stated.