You are correct about game theory. The thing is that no one really explained how n^2 prevents people from gaming the system. Apparently this curve was meant to discourage self voting so the assumption is that self voting is a problem. Here I explained briefly why self voting is not a problem https://steemit.com/steem/@snowflake/reward-curve-doesn-t-discourage-self-voting
Self voting is like trolling, someone who were to do it repeatedly and excessively would get downvoted, put on the cheetah list and lose reputation in the process.
Also anyone who actually chose to upvote themselves will earn very little curation rewards as they would be wasting their power on post/comments with no community support.
Like I already said, the curve is similar to government banning encryption because a few terrorists used it to commit their crime. You basically penalize everyone because a few bad apples. ( which I havn't even seen yet on steemit)
Self voting should be dealt with downvotes not some curve that maximize the effect of stake disparity and remove the incentives for minnows/dolphins to buy steem power.
I'd be fine with removing self voting, I considered that, then I applied game theory type thinking and realized all I'd have to do is create another account and have them vote on each other. Suddenly I bypassed the restriction on self voting. That is an example of game theory thinking.
Part of the problem is that there are some BIG PROBLEMS that we haven't found a good code solution for. So we do need to experiment, but we need to do it at the code level and set a time period for how long before reviewing the results.
That would remove guessing, and speculating about who is right and who is wrong which just leads to decision paralysis.
I think we need to experiment with some things other than n^2 and while that is not in 0.17.0 there is a good chance it will be in 0.18.0.
Self voting is not a problem, selfish voting is. Votes which are at the expense of community engagement and satisfaction, such as auto votes and circle jerk votes that result in the same users getting to the trending page every day. Those things cause disengagement and do not even benefit the short sighted selfish voter.
As for a code solution, I suggest incentives to seek out new users, by varying the ratio of curation rewards to post rewards according to how many followers a user has and how many vests those followers have.
https://steemit.com/curation/@beanz/the-problem-with-the-current-curation-system
Yes, there are ways this can be gamed, however I don't see the results of this to be bad for the community.
It would reduce the benefits of current system of automated voting if curation rewards for popular authors were lower, and whales could also prevent "pile ons" for curation rewards by using their SP to follow authors that are being voted for out of speculation of the curation payout.
Whales and dolphins would be incentivised to seek out new users for higher curation rewards, giving all new steemians a welcome and proper chance of achieving recognition.
Doesn't if feel good to take part of this "Experiment/Beta"?
I only wish I could of found it sooner and could of possibly contributed more input with no upfront cost!
In the meantime, this will have to do.
Let's ALL continue to STEEM on...
Frank
Man, this experiment with the whole Steemit Platform is exciting and addicting. I am very Honored to have this opportunity to witness, take part, vote, comment, & continually learn and grow with the company. A lot of GREAT, POWERFUL, and WISE users on this platform, if you are keen to spot them...(notice I didn't have to actually say anything about my pay or a salary)
Just my 3cents worth again...
Yep. :) My discussions actually have little to do with price. I don't truly care too much about that myself. I do care about perceptions, and how actions can impact the community. We can get a bit too focused on the mathematics of it all at time and forget that humans are not all Vulcans based purely on logic and mathematics, so only paying attention to the stats is a recipe for disaster that any large group of humans can explode into pieces due to all the differing opinions, perceptions, etc.
Yes why not post the actual reward, the reward under the new formula and maybe one more. Payouts are based on the first but people could see what they would get under other foRmulas for reference
(nesting limit)
The supply of those store is already miss products whom demands are already nullified by 'big shareholders'.
For e.g., I cannot go to a store and buy heroin, though, I'm pretty sure there is a demand for it. However, I would like to mark it as bad if I were walking next to it in a store. That isn't nullifying the demand. Who want to buy it, will buy it.
@baah (nesting limit)
Legal / Illegal <== Marked
It's a real world example for marking products. The difference here is you are the gov (part of it) and you mark it directly.
It says:
As much as I like playing with Game Theory, I'm unconvinced game theory will make a correct prediction for choosing a reward curve. It's a candidate for an experiment, and the sooner the better.
Such as? ive never seen any details (or any community discussion) on these 'big problems'. just n^2 staying because INC decided to put it back in.
Well a BIG PROBLEM example... and "problem" could be subjective. If you prefer use the word CHALLENGE.
I was a proponent for UP VOTES only, but that leaves this place open for way more exploitation. So that is an example of a BIG Challenge. How could you do an up votes only (except for spam, plagiarism, abuse) without opening the door for it to be completely gamed?
I stopped calling for an up votes only system simply as I haven't come up with a solution to that Problem/Challenge. Dan said he was interested in an up votes only system, but again he does not do it for the same reason I stopped calling for it.
I would like to see the platform more like an economy than a share holders meeting. If I go into a store I am not pulling out a marker and putting big Xs on products I don't like. I walk past them and buy the things I am interested in. Other people walk in and might buy things I am not interested in.
Being able to put Xs on things you are NOT interested in is nothing like a market or economy. It actually allows you to nullify the interest of others as though it did not matter. It gives a false impression of demand due to the voting power being tied to a share like approach.
The demand can be there, but nullified by one person.
Yet solving that... Big challenge/Problem.
In a market demand = WHO IS GOING TO BUY THIS
It has nothing to do with WHO IS NOT GOING TO BUY THIS
that is more something a marketing department would focus on to get more of the NOTs into the WILL column.
Yet ultimately the NOTs do not get to nullify the demands of the WILLs.
If I have 10 people that want to buy something that is a demand of 10.
If there are 100 people that will not buy the thing that does not make the demand -90. There are still 10 people that will buy it.
Right now with the way steem/it works we get that -90 effect.
nesting
youre misunderstanding my point. The contention is that n^2 is staying because of a "big problem" in the GT of removing it. But no one has detailed precisely what that "big problem" is. In this case (as you mentioned elsewhere) the "game theory" thing is just an appeal to authority.
Yeah I wasn't talking about n^2 as the big problem. I only brought up Game Theory because of the response that they need to stop talking about Gaming.
The rest of what was said I had no problems with. The big problems came out of the responses discussion to my reply, and had nothing to do with n^2 or the original article.
All I was talking about in my initial reply was in the statement that they need to stop talking about Gaming unless they are going to become a gambling site or something of that nature.
Thus, my response was to explain game theory and WHY the use of gaming was relevant to the discussions. That was the only purpose of my original response. I don't believe I've referenced n^2 once here unless it was responding when someone else mentioned it in a reply to me.
The big problems I am referring to are the ones that are unfamiliar and difficult concepts that we as humans have not had to solve before. I don't consider n^2 a big problem. That is an easy problem. Implement a different curve, test it. If it doesn't work try something else.
I wouldn't call that a big problem. :) when I call something a big problem I am talking about those really big mind bending problems that we don't know how to solve yet, we suspect there is a solution out there, but it takes a lot of effort, and trying new things to find it. IF we ever do.