Let's Talk About Sex
8 years ago in #sex by lukestokes (76)
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Great write up Luke and props to your wife for showing off her sexy body in the photo. Good for you guys. You are absolutely right. It is so weird that someone getting chopped to pieces can be shown on TV but then it is considered bad if a nipple is shown. It is silly.
Having good sex with an amazing woman makes me feel like a god king. It is good for us and the way it gets played off is that you are bad for wanting that. Women worry about being shamed for having sex....it is BS.
The only times sex really gets talked about with friends is with other guys for the most part. Sometimes I will talk to a girl about sex that I'm not interested in sexually but it is very mild and not a lot of detail. I think especially if women talked about it more it would help them realize that it is ok to be horny and want a hot man in their bed. LOL
Read and followed Corinne. What a horrible time. I'd never heard of it either.
Thanks Matt! She was happy to hear your comment. :)
Thanks Brian. I absolutely love this comment:
This is SO true. I think it's hard-wired into us. Pleasing a woman gives us purpose and a deep sense of meaningful fulfillment in life.
I'm glad to know you talk about sex with friends. I think that's a start to changing the stigmas about that topic.
May I ask in what country you grew up ?
I was raised in a very liberal environment in Vienna Europe , speak up about the weather the same way as I speak about sex . I don't understand what's the point ? "Enjoy life as you wish " is it , right ? I personally love to have secrets and my life, including sexual preference is nobody's business. Privacy is sexy !
I grew up in southern California in the US under a religious, conservative family. It's rare to hear people talking about sex in a healthy, open way, but I also recognize much of that perception may be just my own experience. It's actually encouraging to hear how people in Europe are not hung up by these things and, as you said, there is also some sexiness to private intimacy. Thanks for your comment. :)
The saddest fallout of all the taboo is there are many women never learned how to pleasure themselves fully or to give the proper feedback to their lovers what brings them to climax.
If it's too "shameful" to cum I think a step back and a re-evaluation of your life choices is in order.
Very well said, @dgiors. From a very young age girls are shamed with "Don't touch there!" as if it might end the universe. We're at least trying to teach our girls that some things are meant to be private, but it's sad to see how much of these negative things are brought about through society and culture and aren't seen as "bad" at all from a purely natural perspective.
You sound like a cool responsible parent. Well done!
Thanks. I guess we'll find out a decade or two from now how we did. :)
Do your children go to school or is it likely that they will?
We school our kids at home. We've already had some unfortunate interactions with neighbors who were influenced by "kids on the bus" who found their father's porn collection and, as a result, have a really dysfunctional view of human sexuality that is especially confusing for young minds still working to develop and understanding of the world. We had to get some books to help them understand things a little sooner than we had planned, I think.
Oh Good~
School is the worst thing that happens to most people and a far from ideal thing for just about everyone.
It is also one of the worst things that ever happen to us and you are hopefully saving them from that.
Wish you the best on it. I am an international speaker on unschooling and homeschooling. A true passion of mine.
Blessings~*~
Very cool! Followed. We're currently doing a form of loose schooling, not full unschooling (yet). I've read Peter Gray's Free to Learn, and I'm pushing @corinnestokes to become more comfortable with unschooling as I learn more. For the most part, she wants to ensure they know the basics (reading, writing, math) while letting them explore their own passions beyond that.
Life is a process. As long as you feel you are consciously questioning, experimenting and reconsidering every day, then you are on the right track!
I don't write much about the parenting stuff because there isn't much interest in it here on Steemit Currently. Though it is one of my main passions and a part of my every day life.
I have traveled around the world speaking at conferences, doing workshops and consulting on parenting/education.
As I see it all the worlds problems start with parenting. Thus all solutions exist in New Paradigm Parenting~*~
It's because how the media and society protrays sex. It looked at like something we should all be guilty of, but in actuality, it's a normal thing that most humans do in the world. Especially if it is to breed more children, and I honestly don't feel bad about talking about it with friends.
That's very encouraging to me to hear you do talk about it with friends. I'm trying to explore how much of this perspective I have is my own social upbringing and how much of it is a cultural problem which needs to be adjusted and changed in our society.
Sad but true how religious leaders and governments have brainwashed many a mind about sex .
Controlling powerful forces leads to more power, and they know just how powerful a force the human sex drive is.
Excellent, @lukestokes! I can't wait to come back and comment on this when I have more time to be thoughtful. This is an interesting and important issue/question you've raised.
Cool! Looking forward to your thoughts. Hope you're doing well.
Very interesting article with several points that could lead to discussions.
I am no expert but I'll throw a few things out there.
It's debatable if there are any other conscious species on the planet. I'm not sure we've actually defined the term conscious yet. People seem to have different ideas of what it exactly is.
Thinking in terms of Evolutionary Psychology, maybe we have sex in a cave rather than a field has something to do with how long we are in the act. When we are, we're in a vulnerable position and we're signaling that we are interested in sex. (If I recall, other animals sex act duration is short.) That signal would have some sort of affect on the thinking of the other members of the tribe. It can take up to 5 days from sex to conception and if someone else in the tribe wants to have children (instinctively), he may want to have sex with the same woman and the other man may end up raising the child. I think I've read that other animals employ such a strategy. Anyway just my thoughts and maybe an avenue of research for some EvoPsych postdoc out there!
Yes, consciousness is still being defined, but I was going with the more generic "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings" definition. Many animals are incredibly self-aware. Dolphins, for example, pass the mirror test, morn their dead, have all kinds of interesting sexual practices, etc. It's an interesting discussion.
Interesting thought about the length of the act. Would that suggest humans are unique in their approach to sex? That might be an interesting study, for sure.
I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed reading this. So much so that it aroused me slightly.
I also think that one thing you failed to mention was that the reverse is true also, women expecting their partners to know what they want and get frustrated internally when they don't - all my past relationships were total flops. Only my [now] wife played the long game, trained me, allowed me to grow and learn for myself. In turn I will pass this onto my son, who will hopefully be super respectful to his partner.
There is a lot to be said about conquering your partners body. A lovely way to put it
I'm glad you enjoyed it. The cliche is women want men to understand them and "read their minds" becuase sex for them is about intimacy and emotion, not just body movements. My wife and I talk about this, and sometimes the challenge is she doesn't know what she wants. She trusts me to discover it for her and what worked yesterday might flop today. It can be very frustrating for both partners, but it can also be looked at as a journey with no final destination. Getting there and figuring it out is the fun. :)
Ah, this is truly the way to live life. Not just in sex mind you :)
I really wish I'd gotten at least the birds & the bees from my dad. He will still just clam up and turn red if I even get close to the subject. I've tried to be more open with my kids, but I'm not sure I've done a really great job on that count so far. I had a discussion with 3 of them in the car the other day where I think I successfully conveyed the idea to the younger two that masterbation is a totally normal thing for people to do. Man, I offered up a lot of prayers for that "sin" when I was a kid...
I think part of my reticence stems from the fact that I don't feel like a knowledge expert on the subject. I've read a lot and Cara and I had done a lot of things, but we've been married to eachother for our entire adult lives. I'm wary of sample size introducing biases that aren't generally true.
And then there's the adage "a gentleman doesn't kiss and tell" which I think is designed to keep boys from having the sorts of conversations Donald Trump and Billy Bush did that torpedoed Trump's campaign. Would you say that sort of sex talk falls under what you're trying to advocate? Should we laud Trump for speaking freely and openly about his non-monogamous lifestyle?
That's a really interesting question. Personally, where my thinking is now, I wouldn't laud anyone who aims to rule over others with the power of government. Most of them seem to me to be power-hungry sociopaths. Also, the nature of his actions seem to be quite demeaning to women (even if he claims "and they let you do it" when you're a celebrity).
I'd rather not talk about Trump because it distracts from what I think is more real: How should you and I talk about it? How should our wives? What about our family, friends, and neighbors? If polyamory or non-monogamous lifestyle leads to increased human wellbeing, is that something we should all consider and explore? Are we only held back by the residue of religious norms about human sexuality? I'm reading some books on this stuff, and it's possible the version of "husband and wife" we live here in the West isn't exactly "normal" when you look at the full span of human history.
My preference would be to ensure no topics are off the table and everything can be evaluated, analyzed, and considered. I'd love to live in a world where shame, guilt, and ostracism are saved for truly immoral behavior. That, of course, requires we actually agree on what immorality is. For me, it means violating the non-aggression principle. Not because I dogmatically believe that's the be-all-end-all of human ethics, but because it's the best model I have found so far. If we could have open conversations about sex, what would society look like?
To take it even a step deeper, what about our kids? Sex is a powerful, powerful thing. Should that power be unleashed by teenagers who's brains aren't fully developed? Could they do harm to themselves with that power which they later regret?
All interesting questions. I agree, education is the start. And yes, sample size does become a problem, especially if the conversations aren't allowed.
The Trump conversation was brought up to illustrate the point that if the topic of sex loses it's stigma then not everyone is going to talk about it the way we would.
While I've made the effort to not follow in my dad's footsteps with my kids, I haven't really with other guys. I don't know how you and I should talk about it. (Cara is very private and actually admonished me not to post anything too personal here.) I think I probably could have saved myself a lot of trial and error over the years had I taken the time to compare experiences with other guys.
How should our wives? Again, comparing experiences could save a lot of trial and error. Of course I'd be embarrassed by them commiserating over my and your mistakes in bed, but I'd get over it.
As to wider circles I guess it would depend on whether it was pertinent. I had a coworker who loved recounting tales of his sex life which never really bothered me, although he had a much larger sample set. He never pushed me too hard to share either, so the conversation was fairly one sided and focused more on the art of seduction than particulars of the act. It also never happened when there were any female coworkers around.
Polyamory is, I think, not more widely consider for the non-religious reason of jealousy. This is probably rooted somewhat in the idea that one's mate is one's property, but not sure that even getting beyond that culturally would end the potential for jealousy. I've read that compersion is a healthier response and people have been able to get beyond jealousy in a variety of other situations. If the non-aggression principle implies that people cannot be property in the sense that one cannot own the body or labor of another, then non-monogamous relationships cannot be immoral. The question becomes murkier, I think, when deception is involved, but I haven't seen a good argument that the non-aggression principle implies lying is immoral and if there is no property involved (because people can't own eachother) then I don't think it's fraud either. But lines of thought such as this are the reason libertarians are often accused of being libertines!
Very true.
I recently read the book Sex and Dawn which you might appreciate. As for posting or talking about this stuff, I'd definitely get the permission of my spouse first because that is a very intimate, private act. Unless they are comfortable talking about it, I won't be comfortable talking about it.
I think fraud and trust go beyond property rights into tribal norms, game theory, and such. You can read more of my thoughts about that here, if interested.
You know how you read a post and it's so momentous and you're so excited about it that you want to write a reply that properly reflects as such, but that kind of reply takes more time and you're busy and so days go by and you've not responded to the most important post you read all week? That's what happened here for me. I am way late to the party, but damn I just love this post! Yes, yes, yes! I agree with most everything you say here, Luke, and I am so freaking proud of you and especially the lovely Corine Stokes! She looks amazing (look at that all better, pretty little tummy!!) and she looks happy.
As you say here sex is a key motivator of many things that we do in life, and yet we blush and shrug our shoulders like "well, I don't know" when someone asks us about our sex life.
I understand your assertion that a partial reason for the lack of a satisfying sex life is the guy's lagging commitment to mastering certain skills. In some cases that's true, and I appreciate your effort there to claim responsibility on any part you can as a male. But to me the key element in a satisfying sex life is connection, intimacy, vulnerability, and complete transparency. Because no matter how much a guy works on mastering his technique, if his partner is closed off, not being honest, blocking his efforts at intimacy then all of his skill mastering efforts will fall short of bringing them closer.
Sex is HUGELY important part of my relationship with Sean. Yes, I openly and happily admit that. While we preach safe sex to our kids, and not abstinence, we don't, however, openly talk about our own sex life with them. I've been afraid it would make them uncomfortable (ewww...my parents having sex is a gross kind of thing), but now I see withholding that important part of our life is only propagating keeping sex talk weird.
So while I'm not going to just start spilling all the juicy details with my kids, I will begin to notice when I'm tempted to hide or withhold from them on this subject. thank you for helping me see that so I can be mindful how I proceed on that topic as a parent.
Anyways, I'm rambly today but damn great post and I'm grateful for your openness, your willingness to lead here on this subject in general, and for bringing awareness to how open we are about our own sex lives so hopefully we can all re-evaluate our default ways and go forward with clearer intentions.
Thank you for such a wonderful reply. :)
I have a friend who is a professional sexologist, and I remember how awkward it was at first within our community when he talked openly about sex. Gradually I started to realize he was being normal, and my thinking was weird. At the same time, I remember the discussions about raising their children, and I had to wonder if the open talk about sex ("Mom and Dad have a sex date tonight, so you are going to stay with your cousins" type stuff) led to other problems and interests which made this more difficult... I don't really know, and it's further complicated by their religious worldview which adds more aspects to the discussion (definitely an abstinence stance there).
It's a complicated thing as a parent to figure out. I don't have answers, but I'm learning all I can from those who have done it well.
Thanks again for such an encouraging, heartfelt response. :)
First thing each day when I wake I read from a wisdom book. Currently it's Osho, The Tantra Experience. Oddly but often the section that I read has something to do with what happened in my life the day before...here is the passage I read this morning:
And then:
Sorry I'm so late to the game. I'm just now able to respond.
I've also wondered why people are so "shy" about their sexuality. It's the same age old question: nature or nurture?
And, as with most, I think the answer is both. There's definitley a nurture component to it. Indeginous socieities across the world were/are notoriously relaxed about sexuality, at least until they were shamed by their conquerors. So, cultural shaming (nurture) plays a big role.
But I do think there's a nature component also. Specifically all human egos naturally seek to deny their vulnerability. Denying/hiding vulnerability is in the very nature of ego. And publicly acknowledging the true extent of our fascination with sex in general, or specific acts/people in particular, makes us feel incredibly vulnerable. What if they don't share our particular kink/fascination/interest? What if they try to make me explain it and I can't? I'll feel weird and ostracized, says the ego.
Sex holds incredible power over us, the significance of which we often seek to hide or diminish for reasons that aren't a result of nurture, but nurture still plays a huge role, I think.
Great reply! Thank you, Sean.
Really good point.
So well said. I know you've delved deeper into the ego of consciousness than I have, but I'm trying to learn new things all the time.
Vulnerability is so very hard for us. It's like we're still thinking in terms of "we might die at any moment!" primitive thinking while we have safety and abundance all around us.
Oh, also, I'm reading The Red Queen right now and enjoying it.
Sorry, I'm a little late to the party. Hopefully you'll check your replies.
Anyway, great post Luke. I disagree with your starting point but your conclusions are pretty much spot on, IMO. You know I'm a Christian, but I agree that religion has really missed the mark when it comes to sex. My wife and I try to speak openly with our children about sex, while communicating our vision of the joys of monogamous love. In the churches I've been a part of, we've tried to do the same. I hope that we continue to cultivate a strength of relationship with our children where it's natural for us to share with them some pre-honeymoon tips :)
I'm curious, though... having rejected the Bible as a guide for life and sexuality, on what basis do you teach your kids healthy sexual boundaries? Also, what boundaries do you / will you teach your kids?
Always!
Which one? Do you mean the evolutionary justifications?
Do you speak about sex outside of your family to also include your friends? It's good to hear your talk about it in the churches you're a part of. That's certainly needed, IMO.
That's a really good question, one @corinnestokes and I are still working out the answer to. Since she and I are still determining where we stand on a number of issues related to what we'll teach our children, I think at this point my only answer is expose them to as much truth as possible and teach as much good epistemology as possible.
Yes, namely that the propagation of our genes is the meaning of life.
We have one couple who are our dearest friends that we are VERY transparent with. They have a healthy sexual relationship so it's not awkward at all.
You infer in your post that the reason people don't talk about sex is because they are insecure about their own lack of sexual fulfilment. I believe that's true. I've tried to talk to many men about sex and most of them are either addicted to porn or not regularly intimate with their wives, which makes it difficult for them to discuss openly. Sex is such a massive part of the human experience and my wife and I are pretty passionate about helping other couples improve in this area. We get the best results with those we can counsel before they get married. I do think we've freaked some people out though with our level of transparency :)
Anyway, thanks for posting something intelligent and thoughtful on this topic.
If it's not the meaning of life, then what would you go with? If it's to please what you perceive to be your creator, is that universal to all the other religions around the world and wouldn't you feel differently if you were born in a different region of the world?
I like the "spread our genes" answer because it not only fits universally for humanity, but also for most species on the planet. I just started another book on this topic today (The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt Ridley), and I'm looking forward to getting through it.
Too true. I think it becomes a matter of identity. Too many men have no identity in this area and it tears them apart (from an evolutionary standpoint, I'd argue that makes sense).
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
To know God more deeply and to help others know him.
If I did not believe it was a universal truth then I would not truly believe, at least not in the God of the Bible.
Perhaps I would feel differently if I was born in a different region of the world, but that in itself does not make my view of the world untrue. If you were born in a different region of the world, you too may have a different worldview . That alone doesn't mean your worldview is a false reflection of reality.
How is that view of the meaning of life consistent with your monogamous lifestyle? If humanity is no different than any other species in relation to procreation, then shouldn't you be trying to impregnate as many women as possible (up to the limit of still being able to protect your offspring) to live out your ultimate meaning in life?
No, but it certainly casts doubt on it. The nice thing about a falsifiable claim is I can read and travel and learn from others to find actual aspects of my worldview which can be falsified and by doing so improve it over time.
A faith based worldview does not allow for this because it is a non-falsifiable claim. That, to me, creates challenges for justified belief (epistemology) because from that framework anyone can believe anything and no one else has a mechanism to show them where they might be incorrect (we see this with many religious disagreements in the world today).
It's something I'm working out as I better understand the reality of my species along with the reality of my marriage and my love for my wife. An evolutionary strategy of "impregnate as many females as possible" does play out in some species, but notably not so much in ours. Even then, people like Genghis Khan may disagree. :)
I view these discussions about purpose as being tied to discussions on morality. I do think gene transfer is the ultimate goal (and I see no strong counter argument to that claim), but I also think there are complicated sub goals on multiple levels which achieve that higher goal for the species. For example, affluent societies seem to reproduce less. Could that be a built in mechanism to prevent us from overconsumption which might introduce systemic risk? There are many more examples like this I'm interested in learning more about along the lines of evolutionary stable strategies, but I also temper everything based on my love for my wife as I recognize we are not in the same place when it comes to worldviews. Because I love her, I wouldn't consciously do things to hurt her.
The idea that we need an old book or religion to instruct us on "healthy boundaries" doesn't hold up to scrutiny, at least for me. Let me illustrate why by talking about something with less moral/religious baggage than sex---that is, health in general.
Do we need the Bible or religion go learn/know/discern what is healthy behavior and what is not? The Bible doesn't condemn smoking tobacco, but yet we can readily discern that doing so is unhealthy. The Bible does condemn (as "unclean") the eating certain foods that we can readily discern are perfectly healthy when properly prepared.
If you've not ready Sam Harris's book The Moral Landscape, I highly commend it. He explains very clearly how science/logic/reason/compassion are sufficient for discerning the boundaries of moral behavior, and why religion is, if anything, a hindrance to such discernment.
One reason religion is a hindrance is because dogma is impervious to logic/reason/compassion. Consequently, two different religions with two different dogmas may disagree on, for instance, healthy sexual boundaries. For instance, Christians generally believe that rape is religiously condemnable in most all instances, but many Muslims believe its perfectly acceptable to rape infidels. Differences of opinion on these and other matters lead to strife and conflict. Which one is right? Since both have abandoned reason and instead cling to their own interpretation of their differing religious texts for the answer to this question, there's no settling the question.
Religion may therefore create boundaries, but those boundaries are not objectively "healthy". They are a boundary only becasue some old book said so, or is interpreted as saying so.
PS--Corrine is amazing! Lovin that tummy. :-)
Our family talked about sex just like any other topic. It was no big deal as far as a conversation around our house, but some of our guests would squirm in their skin when the topic was discussed. Like my mother used to say when people got uptight, "Joke 'em if they can't take a fuck."
Hahaha... nice. Do you think if more people took this approach of talking openly we'd have a better perspective on the issue?
Man, I'm on dry season ever since Steemit took over my life.
Btw, yeah now that you mention it - it's okay to portray violence publicly but sex is somehow a no-no-no. I wonder what's the logic (or irrationality) behind it? I'm pretty no-holds barred talking bout it with a better half, and okay if someone engages me in a conversation about it. But otherwise, it's not something that's on top of my head
A dry season... that's actually another aspect I hadn't addressed in my post. Maybe one of the reasons we don't all talk more openly about sex is because we recognize it is not evenly distributed. Being such a powerful, important thing, maybe it's empathy and courtesy to not talk about it since, inevitable, some others aren't getting enough.
Also, as you mentioned, it's easy to just not have it be an important topic for season of time, especially when we're hyper focused on other things.
Cool article!
Thank you! I'm quite proud of it. :)