Unpegged SBD: A Pointless Speculative Asset

in #sbd7 years ago

You know what they say. You can't teach a sheep economics. Actually, no one really says that but the fact that so many people are favor of having a SBD that has no use case other than to be a speculative asset really surprises me. I mean everyone raves about Steem's use cases while SBD (that other currency) really has none. You can not really use it as a means of exchange because it is not stable enough. It doesn't work as a good peg because the supply is too scarce. Hear me out.


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Let's go over some of the pros of keeping SBD as a speculative asset and dissect why these aren't really that great of a reason.


Post Payouts Would Go Down

This is not exactly true. Since SBD production is dependent on the Steem price in USD, you would still receive the same amount of SBD and Steem unless the Steem price would change. But the argument here is that you won't be able to trade SBD for as much STEEM or other assets. The argument is that you lose the "arbitrage" opportunity.

But this "arbitrage" opportunity is based on the fact that SBD should be $1. So the suggestion here is that the price SHOULD go down to $1 in the future. But the free market could keep at $5 forever, so your perceived "arbitrage" is based on that the peg will be enforced in the future. So basically the argument is greed. You can make more money now and then once you got your fill, you can use the instrument as it was intended.

Or the free market could continue to speculate on the object and your "arbitrage" opportunity should be realized. I mean eventually as Steem goes up more SBD will be introduced to the market. But this reduces again to greed. Just long-term greed. In the meanwhile, SBD will suffer from wild swings in price and to the whims of the market, so essentially a gambling tool for "arbitrage".

But let's look at the ethics behind this idea of "arbitrage." You are essentially hoping for suckers to buy into an instrument that is unstable, knowing that it should be worth less in the future as the Steem price raises. That's not very nice. But trading is a cutthroat world.

This Would Punish Speculators Of SBD

And what's wrong with that? Trading is a cutthroat world. People should research assets before they invest in them. The whitepaper discusses SBD as an instrument that was intended to follow the value of the US dollar. So, if changes were made that made that a possibility, investors shouldn't be unhappy. They took a gamble that a pegged instrument would stay unpegged. And they know the risks of investing. So, are there any really problems, here?

Also, as Steem increases in price and SBD becomes more available, they would get punished anyway. Basically you are arguing in support of a gambling market. Granted that we haven't found a use case of SBD that does not involve trading in order to get a more valuable asset with actual use cases, well, you can see why I call it a pointless speculative asset.

This Would Punish Authors

Since, we are not implementing any sort of peg today, you have plenty of time to cash out that valuable SBD. If you are reliant on the price of SBD for your livelihood, I mean maybe you should make more prudent financial decisions. Especially since that would be gambling on SBD's volatility. If the whole market crashed 90% tomorrow, SBD would be $1. There's the problem with your speculative asset.

If it was stuck at a dollar, authors could make more rational decisions with regards to how much money they are actually making rather than being stuck at the whims of the market. And if the market crashed, authors would have more of their value preserved than with high SBD which would crash to around a $1.

User Retention Could Drop And Growth Would Slow Down

Since the only use cases have involved "arbitrage" and gambling on price, I not really sure I would really want the people around who only use the site because SBD is in that state. But a stable SBD might appeal to non-investors who want something connected to their precious fiat money. Unstable SBD adds more confusion and is less user-friendly. Being more user-friendly could help growth but maybe it won't.

That being said, this argument is speculative and is dependent on users who are greedy people. Just ask yourself. Are you the type of person who would leave Steemit if SBD was stabilized at $1? Because I find that kind of person unhealthy for the development and health of a community that cares about people over money. Because those communities are the ones that last.

Demand For Steem Could Decrease

This sounds like another argument derived from greed. You really don't have a good reason, outside of that? Well, let's say the value of SBD falls to $1. Now there's only one speculative asset on the platform rather than two. There's less competition from SBD amongst the speculators outside of Steem. Now they might chase another asset, but how many people are speculating on Steem solely because of the SBD price?

Sure the demand might go down, but people don't know Steemit as the place where SBD pumps and provides good opportunities for "arbitrage" of speculative assets. It's a social media platform that pays you to produce content. And again, if the price does go down, we purge some of the greed off of this platform. That's not a bad thing.

High SBD Is Growing The Community Now

First, correlation does not imply causation. Basic statistics here. Second, the price of Steem has also risen. So you don't know whether the correlation belongs to Steem or SBD. Third, let's say that you could determine that SBD and increased user growth were indeed related independent of the price of Steem. Is the price of SBD going up resulting in more users or are more users and activity resulting in a higher SBD due to its scarcity?

These are all questions that need to be addressed with statistic facts (rather than speculated about) in order to provide enough evidence of this. As Steem becomes more mainstream however, less people will care about high SBD because the Steem token is the main draw and they will be less familiar with investing in the cryptospace.

Final Overview

So, let's take all of these pro-unpegged SBD arguments. We see that all these reasons can be reduced down to one reason. Money and the greed of people to maximize that money. No use cases are really discussed and no real benefits can provably be observed from leaving SBD unpegged. If the asset serves no purpose but to be a speculative asset which Steem already is and is easier to manipulate than Steem due to its scarcity, then is there any point in having it? We should either scrap it or enforce a strong peg.

But perhaps you need use cases for SBD to be fleshed out if it were pegged to a dollar to be convinced. The first use case is that it becomes an instrument for trade. You can now develop an economy on a resource that has it's value preserved and stable. That way you can buy and sell things without the fear of losing value. With unstable SBD, a pizza could be worth 10 SBD one day and 2 SBD the next day. The person who the bought the pizza isn't happy.

With unhappy pizza buyers, people would be less encouraged to circulate SBDs and we lose out on developing a potential economy on top of the Steem ecosystem. A reason that there is little development of an actual economy within Steem and the cryptospace is because the value fluctuates and encourages people to hoard rather than spend.

The second is that it can be used as a protective instrument. You have a feeling that the cryptomarket is going to crash? With pegged SBD, you can preserve nearly all of the value in the asset. With unpegged SBD above $1, you are going to lose some value when the SBD crashes towards $1. Volatility is good for making money when you have a stable instrument to trade against. Why not have a crypto-dollar instead of moving into tether (with all the doubt there) or fiat money? That might drive more people towards Steem.

There are actual use cases here beyond that of the Steem token. That's the reason a pegged instrument was purposed in the original whitepaper. Because those sorts of things are useful. But if you would rather have an instrument that satisfies greed rather than one that has useful properties when stable, then that's your priority. I am just a long-term thinker who is sometimes wrong. But more often than not, vision is rewarded over short-term and money-centric thinking.

But this is a community decision and I recognize this is a democratic process. I can't make your mind up for you. I can only make my case. But if you do agree with me, I encourage you to vote for witnesses in favor of a hard-pegged SBD as they are the ones who ultimately update the blockchain with changes.

I am happy to hear your thoughts, concerns, and questions. As normally, 100% SBD of the post goes to the best commenter.


Sources:

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Witness Discussion - SBD price and reverse peg
Still in Defense of a High SBD by @reggaemuffin by @aggroed

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  • Any market could crash 90% tomorrow. That doesn't mean you should peg all those markets to $1 USD

  • You don't want users around that are here for "the money"? Well, anyone is free to flag those users to decline their payouts.

  • One shold make better financial decisions? Yes, of course, and that could be said about many many beginner traders. But this is still not an argument why one should destroy SBD and force it to $1, ruining the economy for everyone. Also, there is literally nothing that says SBD can't keep this price for years and go even higher. That being said, those financial decisions will in such a case be pretty good.

All these are non-arguments for destroying 700% of something's value. Go make your own cryptocurrency which is pegged to the US Dollar and let the free market work in peace.

Any market could crash 90% tomorrow

That why things like tether exist. Traders flip into tether and can buy cryptos at a lower price. We already have a speculative asset called Steem on this platform. What's the point of having two? To confuse people? If even have a better tether, then think about all the people we could attract to Steem.

You don't want users around that are here for "the money"?

No, it is fine if users are here only for the money. I won't feel bad if they leave simply because the price of a speculative assets decreases. It means they lack long-term perspective and didn't really care about the community.

there is literally nothing that says SBD can't keep this price for years and go even higher.

Looks like someone has not read the whitepaper. Not saying that you have to, but it good to understand how these mechanisms work. 10 SBD will be produced for every STEEM when STEEM is $10. 100 SBD will be produced for every STEEM when STEEM is $100. 1000 SBD will be produced for every STEEM when STEEM is $1000. If the supply grows faster than that of Steem, people will eventually figure out that asset loses value as STEEM goes up. So, your argument is refuted by math. Just because whales can pump the price and draw out suckers doesn't mean they'll do it and be able to do it forever.

destroying 700% of something's value

Let's say that we implement the reverse conversion. The free market determines the price of SBD. If nobody uses the conversion from Steem to SBD, then the price should hold. Why restrict the transfers one-way? Shouldn't we also allow trade the other way and allow smart people to make money? Wouldn't such a mechanism provide a freer market? I would not be destroying 700% of something's value, the free market would. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'm sure you agree with me on that. The free market should determine the price of an asset. I simply want to free the SBD.

The market is determining the price of SBD? That’s why it is where it is. If it was pegged to the dollar, developers would be determining the value of SBD. Supply would be increasing and decreasing to match demand. This is not a free market, that would be a manipulated market that has no true value. Because your 1 sbd would be worth $1 dollar now and 20 years from now it would be the same. That is not a free market. That is basically what the government does by just printing more money over time. Set a fixed supply and leave it that way. The market should decide what to do with SBD.

SBD's are designed to not have a fixed supply (even now). They are being printed like fiat money (except slower and less efficiently). The issue is that there is so few of them that when a speculative wave comes they jump up in price and people think they are worth holding. Over time, SBD will return to the peg. Either that or Steem will not increase in price.

There is no manipulation in a peg. It is a market instrument backed by Steem but people are using improperly and reducing it to a speculative token.

For now I will vote on witnesses that are agains the forced peg at this moment. I say: first look if the price comes down itself from supply-increase with all the printed dollars. If not later, when more sbd's are printed and much more people joined steemit (yes I truly believe this brings alot of people to the platform atm) you can peg it to 1$ for the reasons you described that you think are an advantage of having a pegged sbd. however we'll need a larger supply before people use sbd to safely store their value in the pegged sbd. Then again thether hasnt that big of a marketcap right? I doubt that we would have more benefit from people storing in sbd (pegged) then having these prices atm of SBD. we also didnt capture the market in 2 years but finally this price does alot of good things to the platform. I wouldnt change it quickly. I'll also make a post about it soon to defend my points and tell people to vote to the witnesses they want to follow :). Thanks for putting your toughts in a post it is good to hear out everyone :) (upvoted for visibility)

There's also the benefit of having a stable medium of exchange with regards to SBD. I'll kind of agree that simply using SBD as a protective asset against crashes won't do much to build the ecosystem, but I think the medium of exchange aspect is something the other cryptos struggle with. Nobody uses tether to buy things.

Market is the one that sets the price. If you do not agree with that, then remove SBD from market.

Well the market plus supply and demand. We should increase Sbd supply and reduce steem supply to give a boost to steem holders.

here. The free market would naturally peg the price as a result.I am in favor of implementing a reverse transfer that would allow you to convert Steem to SBD as described by @reggaemuffin

This community is strong and growing BECAUSE of the financial rewards, not despite them. Financial benefits encourage people to fight to improve, to compete for readers by becoming better.
There is an element of strategic gaming involved which again, I think many people enjoy.
Accept it for what it is, a community exchange of ideas and place of learning with added reward. The only way to grow and keep the quality improving is to leave things the way they are. ( in ref. to pegging SBD)
The financial rewards also help to clean the group of spammers and chancers also, this happens to those that come here JUST to earn, if they dont quickly make money with their one word comments and copied posts, they just as quickly stop. This is a benefit of course.
Greed you say ? In some cases, perhaps but in the majority no. Many simply want to work harder and be rewarded accordingly, many others want to create content to earn to give away, others simply want to earn to help lift themselves out of a difficult life. This community allows these opportunities. This is NOT greed and its a rather presumptuous and not very nice thing to say.
Leave the Steem and SBD as they are, it's a dynamic most people enjoy.

Well I think a higher steem and lower Sbd would be good for everyone. Sbd could be a brilliant asset if it had a larger market cap and stayed near 1. It could be the reserve asset of crypto! See multi coins post on stable value coins.

First, leaving things they way they are when they could be better is not a very rigorous standard to hold oneself to. Especially when you have a potential asset that you can utilize to break through the noise and develop an internal economy with the ecosystem.

Sure, the community is growing because of the rewards, but I'm not proposing we get rid of rewards. Steem would remain unaffected and SBD would become more useful. The only thing you would lose out on is "arbitrage" which more newer users have little idea about. Nobody is losing out on any money except for a few short-term dollars with the benefit of having a useful asset.

When I saw the overwhelming support (without any good reasoning behind it) for SBD the way that it is, it was due to this notion that higher SBD is more valuable. Eventually SBD will have to decrease since more will be produced as STEEM's price increases. Why not eliminate these misconceptions now and have a more valuable long-term platform?

Think if steem dollars became he new tether. It could happen because what better way to back a stable coin than a social network. The only thing holding us back it too little supply of Sbd and too high a Premium. Imagine if he cap was the same with 5x the supply! Sky is the limit.

I know youre not talking about getting rid of rewards, but you are wanting to change a formula that seems to see this platform on a rising exponential curve. What are you talking about being better?
What I want to see is an improving UI, things to stop abuse by the small percentage of greedy (mainly high level) users, changes in the way the rewards are allocated to increase engagement, I could go on, but this issue, what I perhaps naively consider a minor issue, is taking up far too much time.
I'm never against change, but while the platform is growing and whilst there are more important issues to address, leave it be. Or convince the most important people, the users, what exactly will be better ?

But why should we change the UI? Or stop the abuse and greedy users? That would changing the formula that sees the platform on a rising exponential curve.

I think that both of those issues should be addressed and have talked about them in the past. I just felt like talking about SBDs today since a proposal was brought up yesterday.

My point is that I want the SBD to be more useful and fix problems that coins like Bitcoin are not solving. Like trade and stability. But that doesn't mean that it has to be the first priority.

Also, you are free to vote for witnesses as you please. I'm not telling you that you have to believe anything I say. In fact, I would encourage to vote @aggroed for a witness as he is pro status quo on SBDs.

I did vote @aggroed for witness which Im even more impressed with now as I didn't know his stance on this issue !

Thank you @nathen007 - couldn't have said it better!

Yes, there are good use-cases for a pegged asset, but I don't believe in enforcing it!

I wrote About those high SBD prices a while back, and came to a similar conclusion.

Another point is that high SBDs accomplish another result. They allow authors - the stakeholder group who already has the lowest incentive to hold steem - to immediately cash out a higher percentage of their post's value instead of waiting for 13 weeks, which is probably a big part of why so many people favor it. If that's the goal, though, it should be addressed as an explicit change in the rewards algorithm, not through a back-door.

You make some great points about other users (outside of authors) in that article that I didn't bring up and they are well worth reading. I also agree with your point about how holding SBD is viewing Steem with a short position. If people care about the ecosystem, they should be focused on Steem and its users (beyond simply authors), rather than inflating the price of SBD.

This is an incredible well thought through set of arguments, so props to you for that. I don't necessarily think any of your arguments are particularly right or wrong. As you said, a lot of this future thinking is just speculation until it occurs. A couple points:

  1. I agree that an unstable currency like SBD makes the system way more complicated, and thus not user-friendly. It's a huge pain to explain to my friends just how much my post rewards are worth, and afterwards, I can see that they all kinda think this is funny money.

  2. I disagree with downplaying the importance of the financial benefits of participating in the Steem Blockchain by contributing content. While certainly, the vast majority of users will never make a living off of Steem Rewards, there will need to be a subset of creators who have said opportunity. Recruiting and developing that level of creator within this ecosystem drives user growth, and will generate more value overall. To that end, the current valuation of SBD makes for a much more intriguing and potentially viable full-time job prospect. Yes, instability in the system might worry some, but pegging it to $1 USD, lowers the ceiling on potential payouts for individual posts.

While one could argue that a text based post, or an image shouldn't be worth thousands of dollars anyway, that is not the case with regard to the creation of video content. The liquidity of SBD is necessary for creators to maintain their finances, vs SP which has a 13 week payout, and is only rewarded in relation of the value of the post, not linearly on a 1:1 payout. To that end, the opportunity to earn significant liquid currency for a creator who only posts 1/week is critical. Otherwise we are creating a system that incentivizes well-meaning creators to post more often, even if creatively that isn't what they want to do, in order to make a living.

All speculation, sure, but by pegging the SBD to $1 USD, it does put a lower ceiling on earnings for individual posts, which would certainly create new and different problems (maybe better problems to deal with, but who knows)

It only creates a lower ceiling in terms of trading arbitrage. Since SBD is pegged underneath to STEEM, the STEEM price would need to go down in order for the amount of SBD to go down. With a pegged SBD, you will still be paid the same amount, but the amount would be worth less in terms of USD given the current prices of SBD.

But having a reliable peg could attract new users as well and increase the price of Steem given that a stable SBD has more use cases and one can earn SBD through Steem-based platforms.

But you make a fair point on the lower potential ceiling. I do not think we get rid of SBD, but should allow transfers from STEEM to SBD that would allow free movement between the two and allow the free market to peg the price.

Sbd is capturing some of the gains that should accrue to steem. If we increased supply of Sbd and reduced supply of Sbd steem would go up while Sbd down. The best way to do this is allow post to pay out 100 pct Sbd. Then the supply will double and steem supply will grow slower leading to steem up and Sbd down. This seems like an obvious move. It takes so long to change things here though.

It's hard to say given the speculation outside of the ecosystem. I'm sure some wealthy individuals simply use SBD as a pump and dump instrument given its scarcity.

I think it’s rising for the same reason as ebtc and bitcoin itself. Limited supply plus a solid use case (remittances or hashing power or even) lead to an appreciating store of value asset. That’s fine but if we have a good store of value asset we should increase supply so it can be more widely used. It’s value as store of value asset will go up the more people have it and the less volatile it is.


I am glad I stumbled over your post. It's good to read well-presented thoughts from one who seems to actually knows of what he speaks about. 🤗
I also read quite some of the comments here and saw, that we have a suprisingly great variety of different views on this topic.
Many of them are contradictory AND understandable. Somehow curious.^^
Nonetheless i want to emphasize only one of the points, which you also brought up and which does have more weight than all others:Hey @greer184!

A stable currency value allows sustainble Crypto-establishment

Cryptos as currencies primarily used for unregulated trading, do not provide any real lasting benefits for society. It is just a playground for those who want quick money. As long as there is no 'real value' added, there always will be the easy opportunity for the total crash. And unwanted FUD is related to the 'bubble burst' event.

To establish and indeed use a cryptocurrency in a long lasting way, a reliable financial value is an inevitable prerequisite. I'm totally with you on this one.

Again: Thx, for the nice post full of insight!
Best,
mountain.phil28

Pegged assets are inevitable for any real business cases. If Steem platform can't do that then some other better designed platform have to emerge.

The platform has the ability to peg the SBD. @reggaemuffin described a solution which opens up transfers from STEEM to SBD. The free market would push the price back down to its peg.

Whether or not the community wants to get behind such change is another question. And I suspect we probably won't get behind such a change. Which may be a missed opportunity or not. We'll see.

Like i said, the system already push the price down.
But the suggestion of some witness is to create a mecanism ti accelerate the price down.
But this might have pretty bad consequences.

Imagine if sundelly, the price started to fall 90% in Very few days. What Will happen? Panic sell start, wich would drop the price way below 1 dollar. The effort to Bring the price up again to 1 dollar would be way bigger than It was to Bring It down.

Buyers have driven the price up. Users are driving the price up. Deciding to peg this to the dollar now would set a precedent that a crypto can be revalued to what the creators want and punish the buyers and users of that currency by decreasing their wallet value.

If SBD was to be decreased to $1, then there is no point in even having the asset at all. Power up post 100% and you would have the same argument that Steem being worth so much is about greed. SBD is worth so much because of economics. Supply and demand. Developers would have to increase the amount of available SBD again and again and again to keep the value stable around $1. This is the same issue with tether. I dont think there is a problem with SBD being a speculative asset.

Being speculative allows for it to rise and fall and grow as a currency. The price will stabilize eventually when the circulating supply decreases because everybody has the asset. To keep SBD around a dollar you would need to contract and expand the supply with every purchase of SBD or sale of SBD. To me, this is market manipulation. That is basically what governments do, just print more money. Crypto is supposed to be different.

I am ANTI-PeggedSBD

Do you know why everyone is recieving more sbd as rewards? Because the amount of SBD printed on each cicle is increasing exactly because of the high price, Just as implemented on the system.

SBD already is pegged, Just not "hard" pegged. It is still volatile, but If have an intrinsic mechanism that drives the price down and up:

Above one dollar: more SBD is printed, increasing supply.
Below one dollar: interest are paid, making a good move not to sell your SBD, and a direct conversion to steem become avaiable, wich Destroy SBD.

 7 years ago  Reveal Comment

People dont buy SBD, they are rewarded for it. Most people dont purchase SBD from exchanges because that is absurd. People are rewarded and use it to buy steem, which is helping to raise Steem value. Isn’t this a good thing?

If the goal is to have a stable currency for a market place on steem where you can use it to buy things, why not just create another assets based on the Steem blockchain that is actually pegged to the dollar? Why decrease the investments of people and destroy a coin’s market capitalization? SBD would be worth nothing and most people would change to receiving 100% steem payouts if this happened.

The whole ecosystem that Steem, SBD and Steemit live in would be hurt by this change. I wrote a post about it. I’m sure your views will differ from mine, but i appreciate the dialogue and feedback. Here is my post:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@ginquitti/high-sbd-or-usd1-sbd-putting-greed-aside-high-sbd-is-still-best

Feel free to check it out if you want

I personally am in a similar mindset to @aggroed and @clayop, at the moment. I cannot in good conscience disagree with anything you have said here, and if anything you have turned me slightly towards the direction of implementing the reverse conversion route. However, I still think that we need to take at least a little time and think this through very, very carefully. I've been on this platform since mid 2016 and to be honest this is the most nervous I have felt about any change to this point. I think that we need caution, discussion, and to keep a very close eye on this at the moment. That being said, discussion should not take too long. I don't think it's unreasonable to talk this out for a week or two before we go ahead with anything. Thank you for your very well thought out post.

I agree. We should definitely have the conversation first and put it up to the community to decide. It is hard to speculate on the effects of such a change and we should be careful to avoid unintended consequences. There are times in the past where the community and the development team have been a little premature in making changes without spending real time thinking about the side effects.

I agree with all "arguments" about why we should keep SBD as worthless, just the same as you.

As I've mentioned in my SBD peg discussion addiction rounds, to me it's obvious that the peg will eventually be reached when the supply is sufficiently large. The question that remains to me, is why do we need it right this moment?

I've heard that perhaps we are competing with other stable tokens, but I just don't buy it yet. And it's not like having the peg will magically make people flood the gates to STEEM. A peg wouldn't necessarily be trusted unless it can hold steady, which is a long term observation anyway. I am willing to admit that I do not necessarily have the big picture.

But anyway, in terms of my "obvious" comment. My vision is:

  1. STEEM price sustains high price
  2. SBD gets more printing
  3. SBD price goes down below 1 USD (eventually, maybe very eventually)
  4. More monetary tools to prop it back to 1 USD (not the least of which is interest rates and conversions)

I think of this steem ecosystem as "too young for the peg to work", much like the rest of the cryptosphere. (I suppose tether is "provably working", though they could certainly use more transparency for their actions. bitUSD I'm not sure about, it also seems not to have too large of volume).

One last point of thought-- recently I did a two-way conversion pump and dump thought exercise that I would like to see refuted.

The pump and dump attack works, it is just whether or not such price action is reliably achievable or too expensive. I think that a wait-and-see approach is reasonable, but those that hold this position should make it apparent that:

  1. You shouldn't hold a lot of SBDs (when >$1)
  2. We expect the price to return to $1

The long-term mechanisms will drive the price down as long as Steem keeps growing. The SBD is fundamentally worth a dollar. Whether the market figures it out or not is another question.

I agree completely with that.

I look at my own SBD and definitely still treat them as 1 USD ahead of all that. No desire to cash it out to FIAT though, so I'll make the most of SBD being valued over 1 USD.... Get STEEM, Or maybe I should send it to bitUSD lol.....

If you're right (and I suspect you are), then it's going to be difficult to make changes. Greed - especially short-term greed - can be a very powerful motivator.

Hello @greer184; first, allow me to say: thanks for this well-explained overview of the issue at hand. You've touched on many things I think are important. I agree with you on many fronts.

Firstly, where we agree: SBD should and must return to $1 in order to serve any rational purpose on this blockchain. In addition, there are some real issues with the irrational SBD that are hurting our community here today.

But introducing a reverse conversion is not the answer, at least not the way it's currently being proposed. The current proposal does not do enough to protect the community against bad actors with deep pockets.

What started off as a comment I was writing here ended up as my own post on why the witnesses have the right idea but the wrong execution.

TL;DR: We need a rebalancing of reward payouts first, to curb the stakeless actor problem. When that's taken care of, we can talk about gradually bringing the SBD price to dollar parity in a controlled manner.

This is quite a sensitive topic for me and you might have views different from mine. Anything that gets traded cannot have a fixed value.
Listing few points wherein I would love to know your views on:

  1. What makes SBD price rise? i'm pretty new to the whole crypto thing and its not that suddenly the world realized the potential and started buying steem but If you see the trade chart then you see accumulation happening. Maybe the whales are getting interested.
  2. Can you use steem otherwise? Yes if you have more steem power then you can certainly make yourself more money. So that's where whales might be interested.
  3. Who influence my sale decisions? Well I would say all those charts, tables and studies hold absolutely no value (not trying to offend anyone) when it comes to Human psychology. I've been mentioning the same on few other posts as well. These charts and trends show you a pattern but what makes the pattern is the behavior. This month starting is a perfect example of panic sale. While the Chinese and Korean exchanges didn't do as much damage as our fellow investors did.

Take my example. Last time i sold my SBD at 11$ which definitely made me greedy and i moved them to my bittrex account waiting for it to touch the $10+ figure. I don't depend on steemit's earning for a living so even thoe its important I'm not in panic state to sell them.
What happened to my steem dollar? They are still in my account since i feel i missed the train and should have sold atleast half when it touched $8 last week. Who's influencing my sale? My behavior or my greed maybe.

  1. Artificial scarcity and people investing in hype makes the price rise. Some whale starts the pump and others follow suit inflating the price of the asset. Since SBD has no cases outside of trading it for a profit, the token has no real value. But the Steem blockchain allows you to trade one SBD for $1 of STEEM. Thus, the fundamental price is $1. People who accumulate it do not understand the use cases and production schedule of the SBD. These whales will be burned in the future as the SBD price eventually decreases. The price will decrease because as long as STEEM remains significantly above $1, more SBDs are being created than STEEM is being created. If STEEM rises to $10, we see around 10x the amount of SBDs being created. If the story of growth is to be believed, then we should expect the STEEM price to go up which means the SBD price will go down as SBD is flooded into the market.

  2. You can trade in STEEM and it has other use cases. It does everything that SBDs do now and more. The only exception is that you can't trade STEEM for a guaranteed $1 of an asset which you can do with SBD. But nobody would convert an SBD for $1 of STEEM when they could trade for several dollars in the market.

  3. Nobody influences your sales decisions but yourself. I agree with you that understanding human psychology is a better tool to understand the markets than technical analysis. These calls for $20 SBD are ludicrous because there is no hysteria for such high SBD. SBD will do down to $1 eventually because as SBDs flood the market, the supply will exceed the demand. The price will slowly go down, and people will lose hope killing off all remaining hype. The price returns to its $1 peg now being even harder to manipulate due to the huge amount of SBD in the market. This is a good case for the wait and see approach rather than implementing the reverse peg.

Since SBD is mathematically doomed to return to $1, I'm selling most of the SBDs I am not giving away. Because the odds are that SBDs are more likely to go down due to surplus supply.

Definitely. I too m converting them to Steem or moving to more stable coins and needless to say loved staying connected and learning your point of view. Stay connected. Cheers

Hello @greer184

I would like to add an economic view on the discussion, based on fiat currency economics. I think it is a needed perspective, since we are talking about how Steem economics should works. Could you take a look?
https://steemit.com/witness-category/@phgnomo/sbd-usd-peg-taking-exemples-from-the-real-world-economics

I took a look. I think your analysis does make some interesting points and I agree that the goal should be the reduction of volatility on the SBD. I like the comparisons to actual currencies and how they have some volatility and aren't perfectly stable, but stable enough for trade. It was a worthwhile read. Thanks for sharing.

And here is where the "Magic" of the system comes in. It is already pegged, but not an imposed peg by a central authority.

The peg is based on the natural market forces.
If It gets too high, more SBD is printed, increasing supply. When there is more SBD on the market than money willing to buy It, the price Will fall naturally.

If the price is too low, direct conversion to steem, wich Destroy the sbd become avaiable, therefore reducing supply. And people will do that, because It Will be profitable.

And scarcity doents play a role, because on the long run, there Will always be more SBD being printed.

Hodl Steem might be a good idea, because of its function.

But hodl SBD ... Bad Idea.

And dont mind the trade speculators. If there is price volatility, they Will be there, and they Will make the price move on short term.

But long term, It is other gears that move the market.

To be fair, all the whales and dolphins have attempted to crash the price but they cannot cash out fast enough versus the Market buying. We will see a bear market soon enough, then SBD will be under one dollar again.

As long as the people produce content on the Steem blockchain, the lower limit of the SBD should stay around $1 due to SBD production being dependent on Steem price.

i think you are right there..sbd is dependent on steem which is still unstable and i think the biggest problem is that you cannot payout before 7 days so if the price goes higher and you want to payout or sell it which seems not possible as in other crypto currencies..i think this really slow down the steem value which is still not very stable and people will not be much intrested to invest as it process so slow.

The problem with shorter term payouts is that you lose out on people who might find you later. One could develop a more complex system to address this issue, but it would make more sense as an experimental SMT (Social Media Token) in the future.

nice post , please follow and upvote my post @greer184

Low effort. Keep it up and you'll probably get downvoted in the future by someone else.

Hello greer184 :) Hope you doing well :) You have Highlighted a very strong topic. Stability of SBD is quite unsure. We never no when the price may go high or low. What we need to do is to directly payout it the moment we transfer it to any exchange. What I do is that I directly transfer it to bittrex and sell it between 7 to 9 Dollars . Because I am worried if it may go back to 3 Dollars which use to be. HODL is a good choice but not with this coin.

This is my personal review. I may be wrong or correct.

And that's one of the issues, it is unstable due to its scarcity and being used as a speculative asset. It has no long-term value.

This coin is the BEST choice for holding on to !! Its real and has genuine value !

hey wow.. how you achieved that.. two upvotes worths 79$..

Just followed you..
its been a long time with steemit.. but still wondering how others increases their reputation..

if you have any idea share with us..

seems like you are successful on steemit.

if you post something that is relevent to steem would be greatful for us...

thank you..

You can increase your reputation by making quality content and getting noticed or making content that is valued by the community. Given that getting views is rather random being small, producing regular content (but not spam) will increase your odds of getting found and discovered by followers.

thanks for your guidance

excellent post. regards

Yes if we earn on steemit tgen we can payout after 7 days. And if you eran more steem and the price high but you can. And after seven days they will but that time price will be low.

@aggroed,I am happy to see you, every day can collect a lot of money with a steemet account. Of course there are many obstacles before you get results like this, please info and knowledge that you can share for me new to steemet

I think any manipulation of the SBD value (directly or indirectly) goes against the founding values of Crypt-currency. If we begin to manipulate these free market cryptos we are essentially returning to the same issues that existed in the FIAT markets.

SBD was never designed to be a free-market crypto. In fact, it's production schedule is based on the USD price of Steem. SBD production is already dependent on fiat and tied to it. We already have Steem as a free-market crypto. So, it's not a true "free-market crypto."

Second, a peg would not be manipulating the market. We would open up conversions from Steem to SBD which would introduce more SBD into the market so the artificial scarcity that is pumping the price would be relieved.

You missed a very important anti-hard-peg argument (or set of arguments):

Making such a huge change is trying to invasively regulate and control a booming market. Regardless of what motivates people (and greed is always a part in any asset), trying to do that especially by implementing a huge change with a flip of a switch is something markets don't respond kindly to.

I hope you realize you are advocating for advocating a free market pretty heavily and drastically. If a country was considering doing something like that, wouldn't you be against it?

The intention for having two tokens on the same blockchain doesn't matter that much now, what's more important is what the market has decided to do with those tokens and if you try to artificially dictate to the market, you are bound to get your hand mangled up. The free market is always going to be a better authority on what the value of something should be than a whitepaper.

The free market is not sacred.

Of course it isn't. But it's where all the value of the blockchain drives from. And it's certainly more sacred than an original vision that did not actually work

But we already have a speculative asset and SBD is already not a free asset. Over time, it's value will go down to $1 as more SBD notes are produced. To treat it as an actually speculative asset when it is not is wrong. In fact, the current holders of SBD could experience a 6-7x drop in value in their asset as time goes on. You can't HODL it.

Here's why:
Steem is $10 -> 10 SBD produced per Steem
Steem is $25 -> 25 SBD produced per Steem
Steem is $50 -> 50 SBD produced per Steem
Steem is $100 -> 100 SBD produced per Steem

The SBD supply will explode if they are not cashed in and cashing them in at this point would be stupid. Whether or not we should implement the reverse peg on the asset is a good debate and I respect those that disagree. But those people holding an asset that is fundamentally not worth more than a dollar clearly would prefer to gamble and that has the potential to hurt many users down the road when the mechanism above punishes them.

A very long and informative read... Thanks to all the commenters and poster, i really learned alot from you all.

Looks like SBD took comments here pretty seriously. I first couldnt believe on the nosedive but i agree its getting close to $1 mark now.

I think SBD went down because of the current market correction. It may rebound some when the market returns, but I wouldn't expect it to go over $10 ever again. It could, but I wouldn't rely on it. It will be interesting to see how the SBD price responds when Steem and Bitcoin begin going back up again. But eventually, SBD will go down to $1. Not sure when though.

 7 years ago (edited) Reveal Comment

You made some good points and added a lot to the conversation, so you win the SBDs associated with this post. The irony also made this a good candidate for winning the SBD too.

If you want to give to a charity, you can. It's your money now. I made a promise a post a couple weeks to give SBD partly as a measure of kindness and partly as a critique of those significantly larger than me to start taking their position of power more seriously.

I also consider delegations a weak form of charity as there is really nothing to lose. Actually putting money on the line is a much better form of charity and it directly impacts people.

I do not know if you saw the post by @reggaemuffin which described a good way of preserving SBD and truly pegging the price to a dollar which would give the SBD some actual utility. If we allow users to convert from STEEM to SBD, then the price of SBDs should fall downwards given market pressure and an influx of new SBD.

However, I do agree with you that if SBDs are only to serve as speculative instruments rather than a peg I would rather just stick with Steem as the speculative instrument and remove the SBD for the sake of simplicity.

 7 years ago  Reveal Comment

I know for a fact that the witnesses have zero intention and will never remove SBDs unless a large enough population mobilizes against them which I don't see happening.

As for investors pulling out of Steem if SBD's plummet back towards $1, that might not be a bad thing. It helps to reset the market and return things to normalcy. It also helps to remove some of the short-term profit driven investors. It's not really our responsibility to make sure that they do their due diligence and research their investment by reading whitepapers and understanding the mechanisms behind different currencies on the blockchain.

 7 years ago  Reveal Comment

Two months its too little time for the market to adjust only based on supply.
Besides, the demand for steem coins increased a lot more than (exponetially) than the supply (linear)

Not exactly exponentialy/linear, but the demand became bigger than the supply. Eventually, If the demand doesnt increase, eventually here Will be more SBD on the market than the people on the market Will be able to absorb.

But to force this downward price for a sudden change might be more damaging, bringing the price a lot lower than 1 dollar.