Last week in my Sunday post I looked at how a 7 day 24 hour period for "the creation" became a dominant idea that still persists today.
Today I want to actually look more deeply to see what the scriptures actually say as opposed to what we often assume they say.
To do this one needs to set existing notions aside (like the 3 wise men visiting the manger) and actually examine the wording as it stands. If our thinking is a little boxed in on the matter I recommend we step out of the box for a little.
Genesis 1 speaks of a division of light and dark and these being called day and night respectively. The creative activities are then broken up into days, with an evening and morning.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
...
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
... and so forth... at the end of each period of creative activity the phrase " the evening and the morning were the ... day" is used to terminate it.
If one is following closely in English then one have to ask oneself "Where is the afternoon?" Its nowhere found mentioned. If we are taking what is written in English literally then we either need to concede that there is some information missing or that this phraseology is a vestige or result of the translation from another language where this type of phraseology is acceptable.
Indeed if we look at Hebrew (what Moses would have been writing in, or least an archaic form of it) the day cycle runs from sunset to sunset unlike from midnight to midnight as is now the case in our day.
Having followed this line of reasoning, even the "literalist" has to now allow for Hebrew thinking and literary practices to influence their literal interpretation.
If we are allowing for Hebrew influence in our interpretation then it is acceptable that "day" can mean more than just a 24 hour period. Day is in other places equated with 1000 years or even longer indeterminate eras or dispensations of time. The Hebrew word used in the Genesis one is most often associated with a 24 hour period but please humor me a little longer. (We are stepping outside the confining box remember.)
There is a grouping of those who entertain the one thousand years or longer interpretation of Genesis 1 days.
Lets explore the creation account from this viewpoint. If we are trying to reconcile current scientific consensus about the origin of the earth with the creation account we would need to apportion periods of billions of years to the Genesis 1 "days".
Clearly then we would need to concede that the account is not particularly detailed and generalized. With this simple view in mind all seems to be reasonably OK until we hit day 3 and 4.
On day three, plants are created but on day four the sun, moon and stars put in an appearance. This is problematic from a scientific perspective since photosynthesis is reliant on sunlight.
To reconcile this we would need to resort to intellectual acrobatics to explain that the plants must have been able to function on the light mentioned on day one and that complicates the view we are exploring.
Next we find on day 5" winged fowl" created and filling "the firmament" before animals are created. This is once again problematic. "Winged fowl" or birds as we know them are descended from reptilian ancestor, a remnant of the dinosaurs.
So, unless these "winged fowl" are the six foot dragonflies, when insects ruled the earth, we have some more intellectual gymnastics to do.
So having the days represent longer periods or epochs is still not as simple and clean a solution. We still have to resort almost as much acrobatics as 24 hour day creationists.
The text as it is currently written just does not seem to be reconcilable with what is recorded in the rocks, fossils and genetic record repositories of the earth with reliance on a lot of "creativity" that doesn't seem to be recorded there or discovered yet.
Allowing that the text is Hebrew there is a possibility that use of "days" does not refer to a sequence of time periods at all. That the "days" are simply part of a Hebrew literary device and are parentheses to the ideas contained therein and the sequence of concepts that is being created in order to illustrate and emphasize the point of the account.
To me it is very clear that "it was evening and it was morning, the third day" is clearly intended to indicate one revolution of the planet. Genesis goes out of this way to make the point.
God does use sevens and sevens of sevens to describe many different time periods, but in the creation story, and the Fourth Commandment, it couldn't be more clear.
Your problem comes in not acknowledging the power God has over his "simulation". He can create the components of a 13.8 billion year old universe in six days, and assemble them in any order He wants. Just like the author of a virtual reality game might create its avatars and layers in any order.
If we are living in God's "simulation" (which he not only created but actively sustains), then you can infer nothing from scientific observation about how it was created... or even whether anything that "exists" now has existed for very long at all.
As a younger Individual I was fine with a 7 day creation and was quite content with God accomplishing things in that manner.
I still am but in the intervening years I have done many 1000's of hours of geological and other fieldwork.
There is a record written in the rocks and fossils and now being discovers in genomes, that reveals a very consistent picture.
I am also fine with the eternal superseding the temporal however it is my opinion that the temporal and physical is modeled after the eternal and the spiritual and that by studying the temporal and physical we can gain further insights into the spiritual and eternal.
Sacred writ and practice is filled with Forms, Shadows, Symbols, and Types.
I find great benefit in looking at things uncovered by science through the lens of Forms, Shadows, Symbols, and Types and visa versa.
Do you acknowledge the Flood and its effect on the geological and fossil evidence? I think that plays a big part in many peoples misunderstanding or interpretation of the timelines.
amen @pretradition
The geology is different the atmosphere is different due to the flood.
During creation, there was an extra layer of water vapour wrapping around the world, this was released from the heavens during the great flood and it changed our atmosphere where previously the world was more like a green house and greenery grew in abundance which fed large animals such as dinosaurs!
And please... I hope nobody will ask how do you fit a big dinosaur into an ark! God is wise, the animals that were placed on the ark were juveniles with their lives still ahead of them and therefore they were small in stature!
Also note, the animals were brought into the ark by God not by man and the animals were classed as clean and unclean. So let it be noted for the record that clean and unclean meat was provided by God before there was any Israelite.
The flood seems to be backed up by a few things:
1-Almost every culture has a flood story in written or picture form.
2- Fossil locations -- This one is very interesting to me since when I was younger we went to a place in Nevada called Fossil Mountain that is well over 5000 feet above sea level and there were a ton of fish fossils on the top of the mountain. It is a small crater where it would appear that water levels rose above it and then due to the concentration of fossils there were many fish and other animals trapped in the crater when the water level dropped back down.
The devastation of the Flood (which i believe was world wide) made changes in the earth that would take millions of year to normally happens. like the gran cayon in Arizona just to mention one. in the formation of the earth there were process acceleration. just like the creation of man. God made a grown man that at age of one had the characteristic of a man of 30 probably. same happened to the earth.
You still have to contend with the Israelites understanding of the Sabbath. I can understand if you were or are confused about it being a 7 day 24-hour period of time. But the Israelites had no confusing on this matter. They understood perfectly that the 7th day Sabbath was a literal day of 24 hours.
Also, are you essentially trying to introduce the idea of "reason?" That it's more "reasonable" that it happened over millions of years vs 7 days?
If we assume that a God creator exists beyond space and time then the creation days remain irrelevant.
Consider for example how we set-up games like Sims. We program the game, choose parameters, heroes, house, money, how fast the days passes, etc and then we push play.
One could say that God (Sim programmer) twitched one of those parameters outside of the space and time of the game.
If God exists and created all these, then I wonder if the Sims inside the game could actually conceive him and write their own book/perception about him.
I also wonder how the creator/God would feel about his creations doing all these.
Hello from Spain.
We are living in a playstaion 2000! A Holographic world. Quantum Physics. The Matrix.
Atoms/Molicules are 99.9% empty!!!
Watchout because people who dont have a daily relationship with GOD might be sent to another Hologram, which is HELL!!!
GOD EXISTS
@watchout2017
Domi
Wouldn't make the creator a vindictive one? I mean , would you punish your flawed programmed creations with eternal damnation knowing that they would suffer for being predictably flawed? Is so, why even create hell before hand...unless you are sure they will end up there...
Great points. Im stuck!!! ALL is a mystery, but your angles are too sharp!!! I guess Im such a believer because I was dead for 2 minutes and I had TOTAL conscience. The colors were different. I was like an floating eyball watching everything from above. Also, I spoke to a doctor in USA who is doing a study about this by placing signs on the appliances in high areas.
@watchout2017
Domi
Me too after a surgery I had in 2012. There is an explanation
Lack of oxygen causes hallucinations.
https://www.seeker.com/near-death-experiences-likely-caused-by-lack-of-oxygen-1769714593.html
Your GREAT!!!!!!!
jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
@watchout2017
Domi
I defiantly struggle with that as well. However, I think the closest answer can be found in Romans 9: 19 - 23
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory
The eternal vs the temporal paradox, can the temporal comprehend the eternal? good question, you have just suggested a reason for why revelation is necessary, but that does not mean we cannot seek to explore for ourselves using the tools we have developed.
Can indeed the temporal comprehend the eternal at any point in time? If so, how can we know for sure? I think this is the most important question we can ask.
I'm sharing this one with my brother because he loves the Bible very much and he's new to Steemit so I believe that this thought provoking piece will get him more into Steemit and maybe even a debate here in the comments of your post.
great
This is amazing! I've never delved so deep in thought contemplating this. I'm not familiar with Hebrew literary devices, so I'll use your link to learn more. Really looking forward to your post next week!
Great
Thanks so much for your post and your interpretation. While the link I am giving you does not delve into the how and why of God's creation it is still an exploration of the metaphysical translated to our world. https://steemit.com/rothschilds/@teaandkisses/rothschild-canticles-circa-1300
You align these words accordingly in a way that it looks really convincing that there seem to be a problem or misunderstanding with the creation story... I'll keep watch for your next post. thanks
I love the thought and time put into this post. I've never even considered how long days must have been at the beginning. Thank you for sharing ^_^
a pleasure
Pleasures all mine:)
Hi @gavvet, thanks for a very interesting post. For me it is not important if we must see the days as 24 hour days or not. For me it is important to know that God created everything. We are bound by our human view of time, but if you are eternal, what will a day be? You will not be bound by time!! Just something to think about
agreed, the gist of the story is that we are creations of a creator, but its the scientific side of me that likes to delve for the details
@gavvet they way you speaks is good but here is the original view God Created earth in two days and sustenance the mountains rivers trees etc in 4 days there is no concept logical than this one you can listen it here and thin for yourself
do give it a watch you will get your answer hopefully
Wow! Nice Post to share! :)
btw I just upvoted your post and also followed u
Can you please follow me back?
PS
(ANYONE LOOKING FOR FOLLOWERS PLEASE FOLLOW ME
AND ILL FOLLOW YOU BACK! INSTANT FOLLOW BACK ILL PROMISE!)
Great post! I lean more towards old earth creationism, so I believe the 7 days in Genesis are probably longer than 24hrs. The fact that the sun and moon are not created till day 4 implies that the previous three days are not measure exactly like our current days. But of course, God could have used 24 hr days. If He created the entire universe, anything is possible.
Yup, the account is deficit of many details
Your question(s) of how and why the sun and stars and flora and fauna seem to appear in the wrong chronological order has been thoroughly explained by many different religious groups and organizations.
The group that provides the best answers on this subject in my opinion is the Jehovah's Witnesses. You may not like them, but they have done an in-depth research second to none and provided this information to the public free of charge.
I am not affiliated with any religion, but this subject is covered in great detail in most seminary colleges and universities. Ask any PHd from any well know religious institution of higher learning and you can get some really good information... Asking God to help understand the truth is not a bad idea, either.
Hope that brief comment helps.
Please share, link perhaps?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/was-life-created/science-and-the-genesis-account/#?insight[search_id]=a16eeac8-2bf7-4638-9a0a-254a054ce2fd&insight[search_result_index]=0
The above link is to an article which was designed for laymen. You can navigate the JW.org site and type in a key word in the search box. For example, type in evolution. Or input a phrase such as, "creative days".
Note: I'm not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm not promoting one religion over another; however, if you really want more guidance on this subject then email the World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses and they'll send somebody out to personally answer your questions and deliver free books on any subject that interests you. All this at no cost or obligation on your part.
I've done business with many of their people ( I find them both honest and trustworthy) and I've donated to their work so they can offer free info on such matters.
Best wishes in your search for truth...
Great post about the creation-keep it up and thanks for sharing..Like the picture too. Have a blessed sunday
Thanks
hello... @gavvet
your writing is our representative. That's what we want to say all along, thank you. I also see steemit is a real revolution about social media.
Im not religious, but i like the way you dekve into this subject.
Sticking to the literal interpretation also allows for clearer understanding of subsequent passages. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (Exod. 31:16-17 KJV)
Hold on to that thought, till next week.
From what I recall vegetation was "made" before the sun was created.
correct
are we talking bitcoin genesis block? or some religious stuff?
omg hahahaHA
lol
Very interesting, just the other day we were talking about genesis, lucky for us we had a new begining with the blockchain genesis :)
I have wondered about this "time" before and want to thank you for putting it into perspective.
stick around for next week
Will do so :-)
and maybe dinosaurs are descended from birds (the Genesis term) and birds today are not what we now call birds. We've had five epochs since that time and almost no record of the first three.
Interesting post
Nice elucidation.
thanks
I will be grateful if you can resteem this post.. https://steemit.com/life/@richguy/i-would-rather-believe-god-than-mere-mortal-like-charles-darwn
Hi @gavvet, I am not sure about Bible and its teachings, but i can surely quote a beautiful analogy from Hindu Mythology.... I did reply on your last week's post but i think it might have got lost or ignored... Anyways,
The scriptures are meant to teach us life lessons thru analogies and stories, it all depends how big your mental frame is to think outside of the box to understand the true meaning. Example
In our scriptures it is said that God had taken 10 different avatars (or re-births) in different forms. Those rebirths in sequence are:
The first form being a Fish, Turtle, Wild boar, half Human half animal, Dwarf man, Full grown but uncivilized man, Cultured social man, then as Krishna - a man who wanted to establish moral human society (even if some past written/unwritten laws had to be broken, as those laws were dictated by previous humans itself), some theories says that Jesus were the last avatar of God (but that's for later discussion)
Scientifically speaking it is now believed that each Avatar (or form) of God depicted the life on Earth - as Life originated from Sea in form of fish, then there were amphibians, then wild animals, then early humans, then humans started framing some laws to separate Social life from Jungle Rule.
Isn't this beautiful - the scriptures that were written 1000s years before contained such an amazing analogy
Hare Krishna, the last form of God was most notorious and clever fellow - we can discuss about his teaching on a different form
I know to little of all of the Eastern religions to comment meaningfully.
Well if you get a chance, do read... As Eastern (esp. Hindu) mythology is much much older and indepth... they even talks about the creation of TIME itself, Births and re-births (not only for humans, but for entire universe), the cosmic play and big bang...
The most significant contribution of Hindu Mythology could be - concept of NOTHING... absolute Zero.... cus when you know Nothing, you know everything.
Gavvet,
Hello from Spain.
We are living in a playstaion 2000! A Holographic world. Quantum Physics. The Matrix.
Atoms/Molicules are 99.9% empty!!!
Watchout because people who dont have a daily relationship with GOD might be sent to another Hologram, which is HELL!!!
GOD EXISTS
@watchout2017
Domi
Whatever problematic quotes in Bible is because of conversion of Bible from Hebrew to English. If one truly wants to find out the truth then it is advisable to first learn the Hebrew language and then read the Bible in Hebrew...in Hebrew ,there can be different meanings of single word in different context. Bible is the true word of God....
Agreed its very important to understand at least a bit about Hebrew if one wants to truly engage with the old testament.
Hello my friend
That religious belief proves to us how life and the universe were created
And heavenly religions
The message of Moses to the children of Israel
Message of the Messenger of Allah Isa to the Christians and the Apostles
The message of the Messenger of Allah Muhammad to Muslims all human beings
It was not in dispute that God created the universe in 7 days
And also in many texts in the Book of Jerusalem and also the Koran proves this
thank you my friend
I have always been skeptical about religious versions of the creation of the world, obviously because I treat them too straightforward... option with consideration of the days as cuts in billions of years, really makes me think.
With more options to come...
I have finish my project about other life forms that was inspired by Xenomorphs just by comparing the Holy Bible to them. Please check this out
https://steemit.com/science/@dakashin/what-does-the-holy-bible-say-about-xenomorphs
@gavvet this is a very interesting concept being someone who has studied Jewish holly books as a kid this was my theory wat is a day to g-d the almighty creator of the universe one day is a period of light travelling a global in our minds but what us a universal day where time really doesn't exist
That too, time days are relative to the planet you are standing on
좋은 게시물. 이미 귀하의 게시물에 투표하십시오.
너는 나의 예술을 좋아할지도 모른다. 내 예술 게시물을 확인해주세요.
https://steemit.com/kr/@sharmin/my-art-8-village-8
I would agree that 'days' are not days. Wonder what could be the actual periods and what literary devices really meant. There must be a leading thought behind all that.
stick around for next week
I surely am! :)
Although the content is difficult, I read it well. I will vote and follow.
Great post. For me, time is just an illusion.
from an eternal perspective what is time really? It's just the thing that prevents everything happening at once.
Nice job! Exploring the book of Genesis is extremely interesting, in my opinion!
Greetings @gavvet.
Thank you for posting. One should delve further in the scriptures indeed....just as you have pointed out....there is no specific reference to three kings etcetera.
There is a spiritual gift given to pastor/teachers....the greek word 'presbuteros' for pastor/teacher........to teach a congregation. The pastor/teacher we should seek would be that one whose teaching is based on the ICE principle.
ICE standing for isagogoical...categorical...exegetical teaching that we may indeed have a correct interpretation. Principle.....there can be no correct interpretation without a correct translation.
http://rbthieme.org/Publications/creationchaosandrestoration.html
The link provided is a site which holds all the studies of the late R.B.Thieme who spent many years in the Greek and Hebrew languages studying the scriptures.
As you are seeking answers regarding creation....the link is specifically for the booklet regarding creation. You may be pleasantly surprised at his findings and encouraged to know of one so educated and true to the Word as found in the original languages......a far different story than that found in the KJV....just as you have alluded to in this post.
Cheers.
Thank you for your support.
I believe that God can create however He chooses to create. There are some problems if you extend out the days in Genesis too long, because so much of creation depends on other parts of it to survive. I believe the word is symbiosis. Without the plants producing oxygen, we could not breath for long. Without humans and animals producing carbon dioxide the plants could not live very long.
awesome post :)
This is the most intellectually challenging post I have come across during my short time here on steemit that has forced me to delve deeper into the content to uncover a possible answer. The first two verses of Genesis I believe offer a solution to the conundrum
Both the New International Version and the older Scofield Reference Bible suggest that the expression “the earth was without form and void” (Genesis 1:2) can be rendered “the earth became without form and void.” In other words, something spoiled the original creation described in Genesis 1:1 and made it necessary for God to restore order out of chaos—which He did during six 24-hour periods followed by a Sabbath rest.
These two passages imply that original creation in Genesis 1:1 was halted by something, possibly by Satan when he rebelled against God (Revelation 12:4). Subsequently, God accomplished a full restoration during six 24-hour days (Exodus 20:11).
The time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is an unspecified period that could encompass an untold span of years, accounting for the “deep time” that geologists and other scientists have discovered in the last two centuries. So the Bible itself solves the enigma. We do not need to artificially lengthen the seven 24-hour creation days to resolve the problem.
source:https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/creation-or-evolution-does-it-really-matter-what-you-believe/genesis-1
You might be interested in checking out a wonderful website "reasons.org" run by wonderful Christians who are scientists and Dr. Hugh Ross has written a number of books focusing on this very topic from the perspective of an 'astronomer' and an indepth study of the Bible. Enjoy