So why did Jesus consistently call Him the "Father?" Is there ANY meaning that we can get from that?
Even if we throw that out, your description of God is monstrous.
Again, how is there existence in Hell without God?
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The Trinity is God The Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. All three have no beginning and no end. He is our father too just not in the sense that you’re describing.
Plenty of the Host of Heaven followed Lucifer, I suppose because they agree with your thinking; that God’s plan is abhorrant. But they will be on the wrong side of history and you too if you think you can exist (have eternal joy) without the deity of God. You can believe you’re good and follow moral rules as best you can while creating no victims.... because.... morality; but you’re judging things on mortal standards.
Our souls are eternal, God created them but he’s not a respector of persons and he doesn’t want slaves.
I know that to follow him or go to hell isn’t much of a choice but he’s weeding out the tares and that’s what sinners are, tares to be discarded at the harvest.
Admit you’re a sinner, have faith in Christ that he will wipe our slates clean and be accepted by God I To heaven. Otherwise be a tare and be discarded to hell because no unclean thing can enter into heaven.
Where does the bible teach that souls are immortal without the Gift of God?
Don't assume too much about me, you don't know me, and you aren't God.
So you think saying some magic words gets you into heaven?
I’m not God and I don’t want to be God. But luciferians want to replace God with Lucifer.
Humanists want to replace God with Humanism.
Souls are eternal. I’m not going to quote scripture because it’s obvious about eternal torment of souls in Hell.
The words are only magic if you believe what you’re saying and have faith. Otherwise they’re lies.
Don’t lie to God. Smh.
So tell me about yourself then. I’m Obviously Christian Born Again and if you’ve read any of my other recent writing I’m a recent convert to Libertarianism except where God is concerned. What about you?
I was raised Catholic mostly, semi Protestant. Never really fit in with either. Libertarian-ish bordering on anarchist. I'm sure that's how I found your blog, but I can't remember specifically.
As for faith, I'm not sure where I stand right now. I'm having a hard time with faith because I don't actually see anyone that lives like Christ said His disciples would live, and I'm in the buckle of the Bible belt. Everyone I encounter on the Internet claiming to be Christian focuses all their time tearing other people down, and threatening people with torture, something I don't see Jesus doing in the Bible. I also don't see any evidence of the Apostles threatening people with torture if they don't convert in the New Testament.
It's a problem, because if people are claiming to be Christian, but they don't act like it, then by Jesus' own standard they aren't. It doesn't matter if they said some magic words, even if they meant it. Where is that in the Bible, anyway?
If there aren't any real followers of Jesus, and I can't find them, then how can a person know there is anything there? Jesus taught a lot of things in His life, almost none of which are ever talked about in churches, blogged about on Christian blogs, or discussed in Christian forums.
I also think that there is a misplaced emphasis on God as angry, vengeful, and wrathful. Jesus didn't talk about God like that. The main metaphor He used was God as a Father, but when you point out to "Christians" that a father would never act the way they say God does they just explain it away like it's of no import. Like you just did. How is the metaphor meaningful at all? In what way is God like a father if He intends to torture most of humanity for eternity? How does that square with the father in the parable of the prodigal son?
I think it doesn't at all. I think that the God who tortures is not a good God, and not worthy of praise. If that's God, then I think there is no God at all, and Jesus was just some crazy preacher who managed to pull off one of history's greatest tricks.
You really should look into what the bible teaches about the immortality of the soul. You say it's obvious, but it's NOT in the Bible. There are a couple of verses in Revelation, which everyone knows is not literal because the whole thing is a retelling of a prophetic vision, and you have a parable Jesus told, which is at least arguably not literal. The vast majority of scripture teaches the exact opposite, hundreds of times.
Just two: John 3:16, Romans 6:23. Both clearly say that eternal life is a gift of God, and both indicate not everyone receives the gift.
If God doesn’t allow us to be punished for committing crimes against our neighbors and against him, he would not be a Just God. If he didn’t provide a savior he wouldn’t be a merciful God. If he didn’t give us a choice we wouldn’t even be sentient.
I use to struggle with the same issues of hypocrites until I realized I will always be a sinner and so will they. How we act after being saved will be punished in this life if bad or glorified higher in heaven for charity; but all who accept his gift will be saved.
You’re still questioning the need to be saved at all? The Bible says that no man ever can fullfill the requirements of the old law. He instituted the new law of faith. Christ’s gift is the only way back to God.
Accepting the Holy Spirit into my life has been a huge blessing And now I want to do for him the things I felt forced to do before when struggling with Hypocrites. The spirit guides me now, whereas Before, I was often second guessing myself. Now I live by the spirit and look for confirmation of Epiphanies that come more often now as I grow in understanding of our purpose and mission in this life. To Love God and our Neighbors. How we do that is a personal matter but we cannot work our way into heaven without believing in him and the sacrifice he made for us. But we can gain the rewards in heaven that living a charitable life will bring us.
I feel like I'm talking to myself from five years ago.... I guess that's why I feel a little triggered right now. The whole "being led by the Holy Spirit" idea sounds nice, but when different "christians" feel led by the HS to preach contradictory narratives it becomes hard to reconcile. Who is correct? What way of reading the bible is correct? If the HS doesn't answer when you ask for guidance, what do you do then?
Another problem is that people, and you and I seem to be them, often say, "the bible says..." and then follow with their own interpretation of what the bible says. It isn't so clear what you say about the commandments, and that should be evident by the huge numbers of "Christians" who read the same bible as you and say "the bible says..." followed by "we must obey the Law of God." Really, it's not hard to find.
I understand that the church is full of people, and that people are imperfect, but that shouldn't preclude the church from being loving towards each other, if not towards everyone. Jesus said that His followers would be know by their love... Who in the world describes Christians as loving? If you stand from the outside and look objectively, it seems to me that Christians are only loving towards people who share their exact same beliefs, and when there is a disagreement the hate comes out pretty quick.
For the record, I "accepted the Holy Spirit in my life" over thirty years ago, and there have been good times and bad since. Looking back, I can't really distinguish the things I thought were from the HS from things that other people worked out just fine without Him. It doesn't seem to me that "Christians" are especially blessed any more than non-christians. It doesn't seem to effect their behavior all that much, and it doesn't seem to free them from sin.
You say I question the need to be saved at all? No, you mistake me. I'm question the power of your religion to save. I thought for years it did. Argued vociferously that it did, even very recently. If asked about it, I'd probably still give the party line, but I have some real doubts. Mostly, I fail to see the power, love, grace, or mercy the Bible says is there.
As for punishment, I understand it's hard to let go of the desire for a pound of flesh. It makes us feel good to know the "bad" people are going to get what they have coming. But how is death not a punishment? Isn't death the exact punishment promised all throughout the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation? Isn't death what Jesus said will happen to those who don't believe in Him? Didn't Paul say the "wages of sin is Death?" Why this need for eternal torture? Is it just?
If we are made in the image of God, and I think the bible is pretty clear on that, then shouldn't we expect our sense of justice to derive from Him? I've heard that exact argument used by countless Christian apologists to "prove" His existence, yet when it comes to Justice we somehow think it's okay for God to behave in ways that we would consider completely unjust if a person were to do it.
If someone is guilty of murder, what is a just punishment? Is fifty years in a torture chamber good enough? I think that's barbaric, and so do most people. Death is the punishment God prescribed for the Israelites who took a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. It seems pretty clear that God is instructing them on Justice. Why didn't He tell them to torture the murderer for some time before execution?
Now, you have God not only executing the sinner, but then He resurrect them for the sole purpose of torturing them endlessly. How is that just? Where in the Bible is that idea? I guess you can get it from Revelation, when Satan and his minions are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever, but at best you have the worst of the worst suffering endlessly. Your explanation of Hell puts people there for eternal torture who lived their entire life in a place where the gospel was never preached. Or people who were so harmed by "Christians" that they were unable to respond to the gospel. Or people who just never gave religion or God much thought, but were otherwise decent people.
Do people deserve death for stealing? How about lying? Or coveting? Do people deserve to be tortured forever for the same? Think about that for a while... Why would you say it is Just for God to behave that way when it wouldn't be just for one of us to?
To me, this is one of the problems with the whole ball of wax. How is it that "Christians" are loving if most of them openly hold out hope that most of the people in the world will be tortured forever? If they truly believed that, what in the world is more important than trying to stop it from happening? I mean, seriously, why wast time on a blog, job, skiing, or reading a book? Someone might suffer eternal torture because of your tendency to procrastinate... Either Christians don't really believe it, or they aren't loving. If they aren't loving, according to Jesus they aren't His followers.
You say you're Libertarian, can I ask why? I'd like to know, but for now here's why I am. I don't think it is morally acceptable to force people to act the way you want them to, either directly or through coercion. In fact, it was through reading the gospels that I came to that conclusion because it seems to me that Jesus refused to use coercion or violence even when people were ready to make Him king. He didn't act like that because it was wrong. It is still wrong. Why would you think God would act like that?
Thank you for the discussion and FYI I have thought about pretty much everything you’ve mentioned and have had the same reservations.
We all don’t and probably can’t have the Same love for our unsaved neighbors as Jesus during his ministry did. But I’m forgiven for that. I think Paul wrote a few letters calling some of the churches out for not being as proactive about spreading the gospel as they should have been. It’s important to spread the love not the hate. All the reasons you mentioned kept me away from Christ.
I’ve come to Christ because of the prophesies in revelations; suddenly seeing the possibility of the impossibly impossible act of shutting down all commerce without taking in the Mark of the beast. We are standing on the precipice watching crypto currencies and RFID about to end all commerce in cash taking the prophesies out of the realm of fantasy into possibility and probability.
The diety of Christ is clear to me now, the abhorrent results of crime and punishment, and for people who have never heard of Christianity; I have hope / faith that God is both Just and merciful and everyone will get the appropriate reward or punishment at judgement day.
This blog entry is aimed at showing a macro look at biblical history. Clearly showing a pattern that he’s not a respector of persons destroying everyone whose ability to choose was completely prevented by their society falling away. In that sense many people who may not have ever heard of The True God were killed.
And the truth of the biblical prophesies in revelation? Look at current events. It’s scary as hell.
My application of moral judgements against God are pointless. He’s God I’m not, and shits about to hit the fan. It’s time for everyone to get right with God not the other way around.
https://steemit.com/israel/@adconner/the-temple-mount-and-raising-the-antichrist
I am a libertarian because I believe in absolute morality. Respect for other people’s lives, property and treasure without exception.
God is too. He’s given us a choice. Him or hell. But again hell isnt the punishment it’s the result of justice. Is it too much or too little? I have faith in God’s mercy.
Copied from my blog entry on repentance.
Refer to Hebrews 12:4-12 concerning believers being scourged and our faith proven by going through the pain and tribulations in this life that sin causes.
People who think they can be saved by living perfect lives will never understand this and never believe it and maybe never experience any tribulations and in the end will go to hell for lack of faith and for the sins they thought weren’t thaaaat bad.
In closing, constantly pleading for forgiveness means you have no faith in him or his gift. His gift is contingent solely on our faith and fealty. Faith frees us from sin - it’s true Freedom.
First Believe in Christ then Worry about being scourged for your sins in this life, not whether your apologies are good enough; they aren’t and aren’t necessary.
I feel like this reply should have been directed to the other commentator. I'm not arguing salvation by works. I'm discussing the justice of Eternal torture, and the nature of God.
However, I would like to ask you what your definition of faith is, in your own words. I feel like you have a different understanding of it than I do.
Also, you seem to want to cut out the sections of the Gospels that deal with all that Jesus said and did during His ministry. Would it have been sufficient for Him to be born, go straight to the cross, resurrection, then ascension without any of the teachings?
Definition of faith? Hope confirmed by the spirit and random moments in my life that happen and confirm something new that I’ve recently learned.
Point me to the things I’ve cut out of the Gospels that you think i need to learn or be reminded of. Thanks in Advance.