In Part 1 Of The No Safety Zone Some of the foundational teachings of Pantheism were discussed a long with a video that included archeological evidence of historical ancient belief systems that tie together and are clearly followed today.
Pantheism is a broad and ancient system that can cross-over from one belief system to another. Polytheistic beliefs (the belief in many gods) can include Pantheistic views as well as Animistic views (a belief that creation itself is god.) There are some elements of Pantheism in certain Christian sects, and a growing influence in some Christian churches today.
"Pantheism takes on an idealistic stance that it is somehow a new a different belief system when in fact, it is very old. Even the term, "New Age," tends to confuse people into thinking that it's something new and different."
²In 1947 C.S. Lewis wrote about the Pantheistic beliefs in his book, "Miracles," :
Pantheism certainly is (as its advocates would say) congenial to the modern mind; but the fact that a shoe slips on easily does not prove that it is a new shoe—much less that it will keep your feet dry.
Lewis continues by speaking about the Pantheistic beliefs of his time, that involved a slow form or process into "enlightenment," much like the "new age," belief systems that have been around throughout history. There is a description within the scriptures that goes into a process involved with maturing and comprehension. However, the description gives a defining dividing line (which I will share in a moment.) For those who follow Pantheistic beliefs, I read an ³ article recently that discussed how counterfeit items, such as wine and even electronics can be discovered through quantum physics. In the natural world, it takes the elements of what makes up creation to discover what is real and what is fake. When it comes to the "nature," of spiritual things, it takes God himself to show us what is real and what is counterfeit.
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28:9
There is a process within Christianity that includes growing into maturity, but not natural maturity in the way that scientific Pantheists believe. Having a natural understanding of the scientific elements of creation does not lead to the truth. It only leads to understanding natural things. The dividing line it here:
"To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Isaiah 28:12
The key words, "yet they would not hear." The result:
"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Isaiah 28:13
The Christian Biblical stance is that God created all things. He Himself is not in creation, but by His word creation exists. So the elements of creation are not Him. If you make a pie do you consider yourself to be that pie? I should hope not, for then you would be devoured. If I wanted to get to know you, could I ask that pie to describe you completely and fully? If I did, I would likely only learn that you can make a delicious pie. That very pie will grow old and decompose as is the case with everything created. Even the sun will someday burn out, (Billions of years from now.) But God Himself is eternal and He doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So the question is, why would anyone think that they could gain understanding and know the creator through created things? There certainly are elements within creation that demonstrate God's wisdom and glory. A beautiful sunset would be one of those things, but the sunset itself could not teach me about the creator other than the fact that HE created some of the most powerful and magnificent things imaginable.
In part 3 of The No Safety Zone, we'll look at how many of the Pantheistic beliefs are mixing further into Christianity, and the elements of the belief system in world religions today.
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It would certainly be foolish to expect a pie to explain who I am. That is a question that can only be explained by my ego. However, a pie could definitely tell me what I am. If we study the pie we would find that its matter will decompose, but the energy that makes up that matter will exist for all eternity flowing through the universe in different forms.
So does this mean energy can not be created? If it doesnt have a creation then obviously god is also made up of this energy isnt he? You claim he is different because he doesnt change but I feel that is wrong.
He changed when he first decided to create something, he changed when he first decided to speak to Abraham, and he changed between the old and new testaments. Even disregarding mental states, he changed when he took human form as Jesus.
LOL, you are funny alex-draw!
Do you really think that a pie can tell you what you are? You're more mixed up than I originally suspected.
When I read what you had to say, all I could picture was this:
You see, alex-draw, I know your stance very well.
I know where you're going with all of this. If you're serious, and not a game player, and if you really want to persist with this. Bring in your scriptures to prove what you say. I already see errors in most of what you said.
So be brave, and get the verses that back up what you say and we'll go from there. But I have one hint for you. Start in the book of Genesis in the very first few chapters, and see whom God spoke with. Abraham was not the first.
I think I've made my statments quite clear in what I've shared.
I do think a pie can tell me what I am, because as I already pointed out, a pie is made up of the same stuff that I am. Energy condensed into the form of matter. The energy may have taken diffrent forms but those forms are only temporary, unlike energy itsself which is eternal.
Why do you insist on bringing scriptures into this? Your the one who made the statement "So the question is, why would anyone think that they could gain understanding and know the creator through created things? "
The bible is without a doubt a "created thing" so why do you convince yourself you can know god through it? All scriptures are is books (a few of hundreds) created and put together by man. I on the other hand am the one attempting to understand god through that which is not created.
If you have issues with what I say, then bring them to light. I never claimed that Abraham was the first to speak with god, only that there was a change when god first decided to speak with him.
I also find your image pretty hilarious, but only because out of the two of us, you are the one worshipping a magician.
Let's see, "Why do you insist on bringing scriptures into this?"
Because this is my post that you are responding to, and clearly I'm a Christian.
I could understand you asking that if I were responding to one of your messages. But I"m not. I responding to your response to my Christian message.
That question alone tells me that you are not serious. Like I said, I don't have time for games.
So the question I have for you is
Why would anyone think that they could gain understanding and know the creator through created things?
Why are you asking me questions about your own beliefs? I never said any such thing. What I said in my article is that we can see God's wisdom and glory in created things, but that doesn't make those things HIM. He made them.
And perhaps what you see as being "energy," are the sustaining forces within His creation.
There are four basic fundamental forces involved with holding things "together." These are: gravity, electromagnetic, and positive and negative forces.
Everything does have a sustaining energy. Here's what the bible says about it.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
They knew way back then that God's word has the power to hold things together.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Do you think that all of these living forces being so precise that if they weren't in place, everything would fly apart, can't be sustained by God?
His understanding is far higher and greater than ours. His word is living, When He speaks what He says happens. I think that perhaps you're mistaking your "energy" god with the real true God.
I gave you a direct quote from your article, there is no misinterpreting it. Unlike the bible there is not a thousand different translations about your words.
So again, I ask,why would anyone think that they could gain understanding and know the creator through created things?
I do not argue that god couldnt do these things, merely arguing that god is not nessisary for them to exist. If he actually exists, they may even be the reason for his existence. If god was just the first creation, then its not absurd to think he would be deluded by the fact into thinking he is somehow different.