I just can't listen to those two, never have been able to. I actually tried again in response to this video and here's one of the first things I heard Betsy say: "I am very sorry for what appears to be pain and suffering of being awakened before you were ready to be awakened." This backhanded insult (said in a sugar-sweet voice) was then followed by Thomas spewing out a bunch of "facts" with proofs such as "Well everybody knows that," all delivered with smug disdain for everyone not as brilliant and enlightened as he. Yeah, I lasted about 5 minutes. So, whatever they have to say, I won't hear it because I cannot stomach them. That's why people like you, Dustin, because you have humility and don't resort to manipulation when explaining your views.