Often, in cases of extreme depression, suicide is the outcome. Even if it's true that pure mdma damages the brain, taking that risk is worth it if the possible outcome is total remission. Also, it's important to remember sessions would be limited, unlike taking anti-depressants for the rest of your life.
For sure @skypal but are better treatments, safier and with less adverse effects. Right now are investigation with marijuana and ketamine. specially with ketamine in acute depressive dangerous symptoms as suicide thoughts or behavior.
On a related topic, I personally think it's more dangerous for a society not to take psychedelics than to take them. The risks of not taking psychedelics include: Not knowing yourself; not remembering your past; unconsciously repeating traumatic behaviour patterns; materialism; patriarchal hierarchies and violence.
In short, a society that outlaws psychedelics outlaws reflection on itself.
I think in any balanced discussion, the risks of not taking consciousness expanding drugs should also be included :)
Interesting photo. Ecstasy (street pills) or pharmaceutical-grade MDMA?
How much of it? How often? In what context and in combination with what other substances and lifestyle choices?
Primate brain, animal or human?
Assuming decreased serotonin is demonstrated, then what is the proposed mechanism by which this is problematic?
I haven't myself seen any study convincingly correlating serotonin with mood, for example. So, even if we could demonstrate that less serotonin was present, this wouldn't necessarily indicate anything in terms of a person's subjective experience. Although the marketing campaign implying a connection sure sells a lot of Prozac.
See man, the axonal damage increase the risk of dystonia, dementia, cognitive impairment.
This is one study in rat brain. But are neuropsychological studies around the brain damage of mdma.
I don't have a biochemistry background, so I can't engage with the paper you've linked to on a deep level. But I do feel there is a lot of ambiguity on this topic. The paper is from 1988 –– not to imply that it is wrong simply for being old, but that it was written in a certain sociopolitical context and would probably not have been funded, or published, if it had reached positive conclusions on MDMA.
Look, for example at how the UK government tried to destroy Professor David Nutt when he concluded that MDMA was no more dangerous than horse riding. The government drove him out of his job –– their own chairman on the 'Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs'.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I fully support ayahuasca, mescaline, lsd, and (with reservations) ketamine. But I do feel that MDMA has been subjected to a fear campaign on a similar scale to the one manufactured against LSD.
See, for example, my friend Ben Sessa's recent TED talk on MDMA therapy:
Hi again @matrjoschka. Is dificult to study mdma cause many issues, but there is evidence of neuropathological and neuropsychological damage in users. It is hard to study because are many factor and not only the mdma -others drugs, social factors, etc. But are many articles about. These one is a metaanalysis about 39 studies and the executive effects in humans, from 2016, and free in the web. Most of the papers aren't free, you have to pay to read them.
I´ve tried MDMA a few times when was young, it feels great. I'm pretty sure you should be happy for a while, but in long term there is depression and anxiety. I know there are many concerns around the psychiatry and pharmacology, some false and some true. The antidepressants usually are used for a year and a half o two and then withdraw, not for life. As you say are many controversy. I believe in therapeutical marijuana, I'm really interested in your experiment with LSD and other allucinogen, I'm doing a investigation with ketamine in refractory depression. I´m not closed to discusion or prejudice. https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/B631C672458C919021FFBD5EC7276004/S0033291716000258a.pdf/div-class-title-meta-analysis-of-executive-functioning-in-ecstasy-polydrug-users-div.pdf
Hi @garvofe,
Thanks for explaining more. It is just my personal experience, and not a scientific study, but careful, sparing use of MDMA in a therapeutic context over three years has eliminated my depression. It's my personal hunch that the majority of depression has nothing to do with any chemical modulation in the brain. Other than that repressed material may be kept repressed by chemical mediation.
What I'm proposing is that any measurable chemical changes in the brain of a depressive person are adaptive responses to trauma. In other words: they are symptomatic, not causal.
I'd speculate someone could damage themselves with MDMA, but I feel they'd have to disregard the MAPS protocol entirely. Just as a knife can do surgery or, alternatively, be used to stab someone. So MDMA is just a tool. Open to abuse.
I'll add that I would use MDMA extremely rarely, and ensure that I am in excellent health, well-hydrated, well-rested and in a safe, supported set and setting. I wonder if the 'damage' MDMA is speculated to cause is independent of environment, or heavily dependent on it?
In other words, did these studies look at people going through MDMA therapy in a supported context, or just people who took MDMA and sat in an empty room? Or people who took it and were freaked out by a doctor taking notes about them? Or people who went dancing? How does context change the effect on the serotonergic axons?
Finally, if a person takes MDMA and heals the trauma of, let's say, a sexual assault that has haunted them for decades, allowing them to be free and live a full and happy life, is it really of any subjective consequence to that person that a scientist might point to their HT-5 receptors and frown?
Maybe we'll just have to accept our differing opinions on this :)
That topic aside, I'm fascinated by your work with ketamine. I know very little about this substance as I was scared off it by stories of kidney and bladder damage –– possibly inaccurate?
My preferred psychotherapeutic tools are LSD and MDMA. Alone, or in combination.
Would love to hear more about your experiences with other psychedelics in a therapeutic context. Is marijuana used with a specific intention, for example. And how much; how regularly? This is a topic I'm getting into.
Often, in cases of extreme depression, suicide is the outcome. Even if it's true that pure mdma damages the brain, taking that risk is worth it if the possible outcome is total remission. Also, it's important to remember sessions would be limited, unlike taking anti-depressants for the rest of your life.
For sure @skypal but are better treatments, safier and with less adverse effects. Right now are investigation with marijuana and ketamine. specially with ketamine in acute depressive dangerous symptoms as suicide thoughts or behavior.
Yes, exactly this.
On a related topic, I personally think it's more dangerous for a society not to take psychedelics than to take them. The risks of not taking psychedelics include: Not knowing yourself; not remembering your past; unconsciously repeating traumatic behaviour patterns; materialism; patriarchal hierarchies and violence.
In short, a society that outlaws psychedelics outlaws reflection on itself.
I think in any balanced discussion, the risks of not taking consciousness expanding drugs should also be included :)
Unfortunately, no one can be told what the psychedelic statelessness is . . .
I'm psychiatrist so i have seen the effect of certain drugs (meth, mda, mdma and other in people) Do you wanna try depression with illegal drugs, use ketamine or cannabis. https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/14/8/1127/697651/A-preliminary-naturalistic-study-of-low-dose
Interesting photo. Ecstasy (street pills) or pharmaceutical-grade MDMA?
How much of it? How often? In what context and in combination with what other substances and lifestyle choices?
Primate brain, animal or human?
Assuming decreased serotonin is demonstrated, then what is the proposed mechanism by which this is problematic?
I haven't myself seen any study convincingly correlating serotonin with mood, for example. So, even if we could demonstrate that less serotonin was present, this wouldn't necessarily indicate anything in terms of a person's subjective experience. Although the marketing campaign implying a connection sure sells a lot of Prozac.
See man, the axonal damage increase the risk of dystonia, dementia, cognitive impairment.
This is one study in rat brain. But are neuropsychological studies around the brain damage of mdma.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/8/8/2788.full.pdf
Greets. Use ayahuasca, mescaline, lsd, ketamine but not methanphetamines.
Thanks for the interesting info.
I don't have a biochemistry background, so I can't engage with the paper you've linked to on a deep level. But I do feel there is a lot of ambiguity on this topic. The paper is from 1988 –– not to imply that it is wrong simply for being old, but that it was written in a certain sociopolitical context and would probably not have been funded, or published, if it had reached positive conclusions on MDMA.
Look, for example at how the UK government tried to destroy Professor David Nutt when he concluded that MDMA was no more dangerous than horse riding. The government drove him out of his job –– their own chairman on the 'Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs'.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I fully support ayahuasca, mescaline, lsd, and (with reservations) ketamine. But I do feel that MDMA has been subjected to a fear campaign on a similar scale to the one manufactured against LSD.
See, for example, my friend Ben Sessa's recent TED talk on MDMA therapy:
Hi again @matrjoschka. Is dificult to study mdma cause many issues, but there is evidence of neuropathological and neuropsychological damage in users. It is hard to study because are many factor and not only the mdma -others drugs, social factors, etc. But are many articles about. These one is a metaanalysis about 39 studies and the executive effects in humans, from 2016, and free in the web. Most of the papers aren't free, you have to pay to read them.
I´ve tried MDMA a few times when was young, it feels great. I'm pretty sure you should be happy for a while, but in long term there is depression and anxiety. I know there are many concerns around the psychiatry and pharmacology, some false and some true. The antidepressants usually are used for a year and a half o two and then withdraw, not for life. As you say are many controversy. I believe in therapeutical marijuana, I'm really interested in your experiment with LSD and other allucinogen, I'm doing a investigation with ketamine in refractory depression. I´m not closed to discusion or prejudice.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/B631C672458C919021FFBD5EC7276004/S0033291716000258a.pdf/div-class-title-meta-analysis-of-executive-functioning-in-ecstasy-polydrug-users-div.pdf
Hi @garvofe,
Thanks for explaining more. It is just my personal experience, and not a scientific study, but careful, sparing use of MDMA in a therapeutic context over three years has eliminated my depression. It's my personal hunch that the majority of depression has nothing to do with any chemical modulation in the brain. Other than that repressed material may be kept repressed by chemical mediation.
What I'm proposing is that any measurable chemical changes in the brain of a depressive person are adaptive responses to trauma. In other words: they are symptomatic, not causal.
I'd speculate someone could damage themselves with MDMA, but I feel they'd have to disregard the MAPS protocol entirely. Just as a knife can do surgery or, alternatively, be used to stab someone. So MDMA is just a tool. Open to abuse.
I'll add that I would use MDMA extremely rarely, and ensure that I am in excellent health, well-hydrated, well-rested and in a safe, supported set and setting. I wonder if the 'damage' MDMA is speculated to cause is independent of environment, or heavily dependent on it?
In other words, did these studies look at people going through MDMA therapy in a supported context, or just people who took MDMA and sat in an empty room? Or people who took it and were freaked out by a doctor taking notes about them? Or people who went dancing? How does context change the effect on the serotonergic axons?
Finally, if a person takes MDMA and heals the trauma of, let's say, a sexual assault that has haunted them for decades, allowing them to be free and live a full and happy life, is it really of any subjective consequence to that person that a scientist might point to their HT-5 receptors and frown?
Maybe we'll just have to accept our differing opinions on this :)
That topic aside, I'm fascinated by your work with ketamine. I know very little about this substance as I was scared off it by stories of kidney and bladder damage –– possibly inaccurate?
My preferred psychotherapeutic tools are LSD and MDMA. Alone, or in combination.
Would love to hear more about your experiences with other psychedelics in a therapeutic context. Is marijuana used with a specific intention, for example. And how much; how regularly? This is a topic I'm getting into.
Thanks!