With recent talks of power down time and how we should go about it, I'd like to take this chance to once again bring back the idea of a instant unstake (power down) with an exit tax. This time, instead of burning the tokens, we redirect them towards Hive Power hodlers.
If you want to dramatically increase ROI for HP holders without raising inflation and also give users a way to instantly get out, add "taxes" that go back to Hiver Power holders. 13 weeks or 4 weeks is fine with me if you want your "free" unstake.
Reward strong hands at the expense of weak hands.
The tax I propose is as follows:
- 5% powerup tax.
- 10% instant unstake tax.
- 10% tax on all rewards claimed (including tax rewards)
Defi has made taxes standard, so taxes will not be a barrier to users as they are used to such taxes dealing with Defi. This means this solution is not only battle tested but very popular.
The funds taken from the taxes will go to a pool, where 2% of that entire pool will be dripped daily (or every 2-3 days to meet the dust threshold for small accounts) to Hive Power holders. This ensures long term hodlers are rewarded greater than short term speculators and weak hands.
Benefits:
This would increase passive ROI for HP holders without raising inflation. Thus making it more desirable to power up but also gives investors a way out if the coin pumps 100% in a day. With each big pump, we would see a lot of instant power downs, adding a lot of extra ROI for the ones that stayed powering up.
Add a tax to "harvest" your author/curation/passive staking rewards. Example: When you claim rewards, 10% is sent to the pool. This is a way to punish authors that constantly power down their rewards and rewards those that stay powered up.
Add this as a 1-time opt-in option. Have a whitelisted address being used to withdraw to. Changing the address results in a time reset of a week or so. There are other ways to stop people from getting hacked and funds drained. To protect the user but also help the investors.
And unlike most of defi, Hive has a lot of neat reasons to power up aside from passive rewards with features such as PoB, governance voting on witnesses and proposals, RCs (with ability to delegate soon), so having a high APY for staking on top of these use cases is a nice setup.
There are clever little ways to increase ROI in a elegant way where the user does not feel much, yet the long-term investor gains a lot, all without inflation. Since a lot of authors just power down their rewards, this will greatly benefit long-term HP holders.
I encourage everyone to give their thoughts on this hackmd of the PROs and CONs to each of the various suggestions for power downs.
https://hackmd.io/nuxbdu8MQLSUhrPuPclTYw?view
EDIT: Important note: If you opt for HP rewards, zero tax, if you opt for a 13week power-down, zero tax. So authors who power up all their rewards can still power down 100% of those rewards without any tax.
Proceeds of this post go to @pettycash - a grass roots marketing effort by Hivers.
Some variation of this sounds much better to me than the proposal to simply change the powerdown time from 13 weeks to 4 weeks.
I don't believe a simple change to 4 weeks would have much impact, because even four weeks would be too long for anyone who wants to speculate on a volatile market situation (in crypto these opportunities often only last for days or even just a couple of hours).
An instant powerdown would be the only option that I think would satisfy the need for those who want to free up funds to speculate. I agree there should be a fee associated with instant powerdowns. And I think your idea to pay that fee to those who stay powered up, as an incentive for them to continue to hold, also makes a lot o sense.
Yea, it has to be instant, a month vs. 13 weeks does not matter much imo. I still prefer 13 weeks as I want commitment and still a way out for free. One of the main reasons I like this approach is the fact the market is so immature (it will be for some time imo). This proposes putting the "taxes" (regret the word for obv reasons now) in a pool that drip feeds out slowly at 2% of the entire pool paid daily. So, if I put on my game hat, I take a look at this market, and I really see people jumping around. I think with the amount of fun/emotional money, we could build a really big pay out pool during extreme bull runs, and that can help support long term holders during more bearish times.
I agree.
Trickle up economics doesn't work
Why would there be fees at all??? This whole idea doesn't make any sense. Hive is supposed to be a feeless platform, and now there's talk about powerdown taxes and penalties? So you want to tell users to buy Hive, power it up, then if they want their money back, they lose a portion of it (not to mention the loss in a market dip).
And about that "idea to pay that fee to those who stay powered up", why would someone's stake/funds be redistributed to others? Is Hive turning socialist?Don't want to get into a political discussion, but I can see that nasty socialism crawling into America, and I definitely don't want that bullshit on Hive.
lol. Exaggerate much?
Hive is supposed to be what ever the investors decide it should be.
They power it down normally and dont lose anything. This is simply an opt in option.
In DEFI and in the rest of the crypto market that pays attention to trends, "taxes" on actions are a commonplace thing. They benefit everyone.
Hive is lagging so far behind current trends that i can understand people like you being shocked by it.
What are you talking about? 😄
The funds would be redistributed to others in order to powerdown instantly.
That is an opt in thing. Its a cost of utilizing a feature. No one is forced to do it.
And that socialism analogy you made is absurd. Socialism has a compulsory aspect to it. This is entirely opt in.
Adding a new feature to the platform that gives MORE freedom to investors. More options to do with their funds what they want you are calling socialism.
Really?
In order to have instant power-downs + decentralized governance, you need a fee to exit. That is pretty much it. If there is no penalty for getting out early, exchange attacks would be very easy.
So the exit fee is first and foremost a security measure that enables the ability to power down instantly. Now the next question is, what to do with that exit fee? We could burn it, but I think the better idea is to give it back to those that stayed powered up, to reward the ones most loyal to the network. You give short term speculators a way into the Hive ecosystem where. Who knows what happens when you get whales with big egos splashing around Hive upvotes? It could be an entertaining event. And when the short term speculators have had their fun and move on, the long term investors are rewarded.
It's not socialism it is trickle up economics, neo liberalism. Don't confuse the two.
and why a fee is needed? No instant power down but 2 power up times would be pretty much the same, but more dynamic. What with wallet recovery?
If we chose taxes, will it be announced in time?
The fee for instant powerdown would discourage exchanges from powering up their customer's funds without their permission.
On the security side, there's been discussion in mattermost for various mitigation techniques. One would be an option to lock one's account against immediate powerdowns. If you then wanted to unlock it and allow instant powerdowns again, there would be a delay before it's allowed. This could be the default for regular users, and speculative traders who want to be able to access their funds quickly via instant powerdown could forego the initial lock against powerdowns.
Any change like this would have to be done in a future hardfork, it's too late to consider including anything like this in HF25, IMO.
Thanks, good to know.
As long there a ways to power up and down without a fee I would support it.
Also, I would prefer an opt-in for wallets first, as you mention. Maybe with a simple multi-sig solution, that could be easily implemented in front ends.
Then I would agree, it is a good idea.
My concern would be if we tax everything for long term holders, we kill the ability for new holders to be part of hive. Because I think hive is first a chain for web3, not defi (on the main chain).
Could a powerdown be bound to the equivalent of an "authenticator" app? would be nice to have an additional opt-in layer of security for key functions.
It's already possible to do multisig and one of the keys could be tied to an app or authenticator device. That requires a bunch of design and development which of course doesn't exist. However, in the current structure you can't tie keys to particular operations, so all active key operations would need to be similarly protected, not just power downs (imagine confirming transfers, etc. via your mobile device). This seems mostly fine to me.
Can we have a proposal made by you or Dan with these options presented and voted on by the community? Something similar to what i did.
Or do you feel there is enough witness support for this to pass without a formal community input? (lets call it a referendum)
By active voting stake, my guess is there is enough to pass 13 week + instant powerdown with fee, at the moment. But it seems like a discussion of the exact mechanics is still going on, and there's no rush, as there's at least a few months to the next HF, even if we try to get out the next one out quicker.
Thats understandable. My fear is that we currently dont have a principle set up on how to deal with change recommendations. If you caught my DM you probably saw what im referring to exactly.
When it comes to change implementation its really important to structure the discussions otherwise it "goes all over the place", people get exhausted, burned out, time is wasted and emotions fly high and people can get angry.
Time lock could work. That is my biggest opposition to instant powerdown is the risk to security and it rendering the whole account recovery process redundant (as there is no funds to recover).
i think that is not a change that can be done just like that, so it would probably need a HF and we would get enough time until the hf is implemented.
If the trend continues, that would be in 6+ months.
just my noob take on it, so :)
That's true. That's why i made a proposal :)
Or that fee should be just burned !
The pool could be called a Dividend Pool
The idea of the power down tax is a good idea but maybe a gradual %. So the person who wants to power down at the quickest rate, taxed the highest. Then the % decreases gradually if they wait longer and eventually 0% if they wait the longest period ie 13 weeks.
The the other taxes I am not really buying in at the moment as I don't see a big benefit and in particular the power up tax i think may take away any interest if anyone wants to invest into Hive. If the fees are returned back to the powered up accounts given back quickly (within the day/3days) we may see it as an attraction. I'm not a big numbers person but the first instinct is putting a tax on for anyone who wants to power up already puts us on the back foot.
This is a very clever idea. A sliding scale would be awesome.
A few years ago I was very against of power down when whales do it at same time and even on small accounts but when there's a huge number of accounts it costs inflation but maybe because I was worried about my own investment and before when I had over a million pesos invested on this platform is something that you can't overlooked how much more for people that have a huge stake.
"ITS EASY TO BRING CONTENT CREATORS ON THIS PLATFORM BUT NOT REAL INVESTORS."
I think it's important that we also take care of investors not only the content creators.
Am okay with the power down tax, I think having an option to power down in a shorter period of time will attract more hive investors, and of course we all want to take some profit if we see a good opportunity, unless you're one those richest person on earth and wants to help the hive community and not touch your money at all. 😉
Although I don't think the other taxes would make other people happy. I don't mind it, I think it will really benefit in the long run but we also have to consider that some or maybe a lot people here rely on their hive income and it would really hurt them. Especially there's a lot of authors that not even getting any value with their work.
Anyways, am open any changes as long as it'll benefit everyone in the community.
-Gil
But a lot of people willingly pay 2, 3, 5% fees to provide liquidity on DeFi platforms...of course if the benefit of powering up is there, people will take it, just the same way they see benefits to paying fees for providing liquidity.....no?
I like the scale idea
Depends on the roi and what % people will get back in return either daily or weekly. If the return works out enough to cover the tax, it may be attractive for investors like some of the defi platforms out there. At the moment, I think Hive gives just over 3% apr for holders but taxing 5% looks like a loss instantly unless the % is reduced significantly. I am just looking on the simple level of attracting investors, what return will they get and why they want to invest with us where there are many other defi platforms out there providing good daily returns.
Many of us on here are Hive lovers so there is no doubt about that but to get new faces on here willing to put in their money, invest and lock it in, we need to think in their shoes.
While the power up "tax" may seem off putting, the high APY for powering up will be very attractive. In DEFI, entry fees are normal. Your stake for a high APY, pay a fee, and stake long enough to ROI + profit. The only ones hurt from a entry fee are those that leave quickly. Every person that leaves makes the APY higher for everyone else. Adding a entry fee can raise the APY by a lot. It wouldn't see so, but it really does pack a punch, esp in a bull run where prices are voilatry, and emotions are high. The tax on rewards does not affect powerup rewards, only those that people cash out. Therefore you give more to long term authors (powerup) and less to those that constantly dump. This would net long term authors way more profits than if it wasn't here. So really, we are taking from those that take from the system and giving it back to those that give to the system by not selling.
If you allow for INSTANT POWERDOWN even with a tax then you effectively negate the protection that Hive gives to people that have their keys stolen. (A hacker doesn't care if they get 10% less of what they steel if it means getting it all right then)
If you allowed this Then you could easily make the appeal that all powerdowns could or should be instant if you wanted and have a tax or not if people wanted it. OR you could even do a scaling powerdown if you wanted from 0-20%
But i do remind that PART of the reason for a delay is this unique protection feature that Hive has that other blockchains do not.
Yes, in the hackmd, we have that listed as a CON for this setup. However, we can possibly consider a separate key just for instant power down. That way, you only use that key very rarely and should remain offline. Another way is to attach the account recovery feature as a 2fa, IE your buddy account has to approve the instant power down before you do it. Things like this to better protect the user. Also, 2fa like you get with exchanges, but not sure how to add that with this feature.
More keys will make it more complicated and it is already quite complicated.
I am not in favor of instant PD.
I am in favor of PD taxes. I prefer that we use that fund the mitigate inflation the way @smooth is handling now, I think that is working.
I am in favor of 4 week PD.
What Smooth is doing can be done at the same time as this, it is a brilliant idea that's made Hive temporarily deflationary. This idea, the "tax" or "fee" or reclaim bucks whatever you want to label it, would be rewarding long term holders at the expense of short term hodlers.
I am supportive of that. Let's make it happen!
Actually because you would pay for the privilege that would unlock a special developer feature that requires more than just your usual process so you have backups....
Could come in handy and cover that situation.
Having to sign a instant powerdown with 2 accounts can work. Multi sig is a reality on Hive and i have used it a couple months ago during the HBDpotato discussion. Both me and another account signed a transaction to send the 200k to @null.
That could work.
do you think average user should be able to do?
Also have escrow service on hive. As far i know nobody use it and even more people doesn't know how to use ( include me)
Because you didnt really have a use case until now. The user interface for it isnt developed yet.
I hope it will not end up in complex bullshit. As long it all is super easy, everything is fine.
I really think it should be fairly easy. Fbslo made the current user interface and its really not too hard to make it user friendly. I figured it out and im not someone with much technical knowledge.
Ya I think if we expand on the idea we can have a pretty neat 2fa feature using the multi account system. What you're saying is something that would work
While the multisig idea sounds interesting, imagine duplicating the 1.5 million accounts we have right now, just for a hypothetical instant powerdown. Sounds crazy to me.
Since it would be an optional feature to use. Lets call it advanced. If you would actually go the route of duplicating accounts, which i dont see necessary, this option would probably be utilized by maybe a couple thousand accounts in a year.
Feature addition could be on request.
The more I think about it, I don't see why a hardware wallet wouldn't be a big problem solver here. It's one of the best forms of 2fa we available. If we got on Ledger/Trezor someone could secure their account very cheap and most in crypto already have these wallets.
I'm strongly against the recovery account being used as a 2FA!
My "buddy" is there to help me when I need him, not to control how I manage my funds and add delays to my "instant" powerdown because he is AFK.
You can create new alternative account that will act as a buddy?
Do you really want all users to have 2 accounts on Hive?
The use case of the recovery account is... recovery! Do not use such a poor workaround to implement new features.
Nah man, no way. I'd back a 10% instant powerdown tax, but you 100% lose me at the 5% power up and 10% rewards taxes unless it was only applied to whales.
It's hard enough for us low accounts to grow as is, and cutting further into every attempt to grow my account is a fucking non-starter for me. Author rewards are already 50% of the reward pool, and curation rewards for us low accounts aren't exactly taking us to the bank.
Glancing at my last 7 days, I earned between curation and author, 30 HP. With the tax, that'd be 27, which isn't a big difference but adds up over time.
I also earned 7.75 HBD, which if I converted it today would be like... 22 Hive? Powering up would result in 20.9 HP powered up.
A flat average here would be about 4.1HP/7days lost, which over the course of a year is about 213 Hive.
Small numbers, I know - but that's a floor of 100 USD (more, in a real scenario) that I wouldn't be able to use to grow my account. For me that's a significant amount.
So no, I personally, would not support this.
That's my two cents from a small-fry nobody.
The tax on rewards is simply to benefit long term authors and stakers over short term authors and speculators. You get your tax back if you stay powered up. If you power up, opt for the "free" power down, IE the 13/4 week one, you'll still be gaining that passive ROI back with your HP. So you only hit the ones that instantly power down all of their rewards without ever keeping any powered up, which are the people that should pay the most. They don't get hit that hard. They get most of their rewards, and they get them quickly, a change most would still take over the current setup.
Maybe a 1-2% tax, but certainly not 10% of my rewards...
not on top of the fact that half goes to curation and if you use a community then 10% on that meaning a lot get 40% on a post then ANOTHER 10%, so the content makers who keep this place from being an empty void of pics of a cookie get even less................. am not sure how that last part makes sense unless there is something else being altered to go MORE to the content producers favor
It is getting like a 'banky' feeling on some levels ,don't think that is an oversight either because it's like a weird 401k to get people to stake and hold which I get with some ROI but also just seems banky. Isn't decentralization about not penalizing people to be free to choose what they do either liquid or staked. Is this why Hive isn't rising like some communities are and what about them? Is this going to weed out even more 'active users' by making in essence a 30% 'payout' by using a different front end where some goes back to the community fund? op/ed have a nice day :)
Adding this in means you are taking away from people via added "code theft" from them.
Everyone powers down at some point at least a few times here and there. Adding a punishment to it so other people profit from them powering up or down is nonsensical and the opposite of the spirit of what this blockchain is.
The same aim could be achieved by making it so there is 5% reduction to total rewards given out from the pool and it wouldnt cause any direct theft.
agreed and very well stated
The key here is we all powerdown "sometimes." Well, what you leave powered up will earn dramatically more, which would offset any small tax for instantly powering down your rewards. Keep in mind, if you opt for HP rewards, zero tax, if you opt for 13week powerdown, zero tax. So authors who power up all their rewards can still powerdown 100% of those rewards without any tax.
5% powerup tax.
10% instant unstake tax.
10% tax on all rewards claimed (including tax rewards)
I really cant believe everyone is throwing out decentralization in order to add in more scammy game theory mechanics that put forward greed over Proof of Brain.
I don't want the oligarchy that is whales and dolphins in more scelhemes to profit
Rewards for curating were doubled from 25 percent to 50
This encourages people to buy stake and upvote blindly for easy money while adding nothing to the platform. Your I'll advise suggestion is putting hot fudge and a cherry on top to make it happen even more so.
Are you really that lost from reality that you cannot see these changes are only going to benefit the whales?
If you want to kill layer 1 just get it over with and make it a 90 percent tax. I'm tired of this slow bleed of bad changes. Just kill it and be done with it.
Theres no reason for adding in changes that will take away from ppl with small amounts and give to those with large amounts, because that is how it will play out. Large people taking in extra free money for nothing. Hodling is pure cancer and says NOTHING about fundamentals about the chain. This is a scheme designed to make some lose so that others gain, let's say tena of thousands lose and tens of thousands gain, you just pissed off half the users of this platform because you want to redistribute peoples money.
Why not give something to everyone? Special nfts for people who were here first year, second year, air drops of a new token for people who do things and make the token something people want because it's a good project. Theres so many things that can be done without taking from others to give to others.
Not to mention, as they power down they are stilling getting that 2% drip on rewards daily. So it will drastically raise your Hive earned vs the current system now. The only difference in this system is if you want to cash out instantly, and it gives you the choice to do so for a small fee.
This was my offer.
I mean... I guess so long as this isn't 'trickle the rewards down from whales to the redfish', and what I put in actually and fully comes back + some, I'm okay with it... but if it's skewed the same way curation is towards heavy bags, I'm definitely not for it.
Not trying to shit on your idea or anything, just like, you're not exactly having to hustle to make it here - and changes look a little different from ground floor than they do in the penthouse, ya feel?
I believe the drip would be directly proportional to the amount of Hive power you have, so everyone would benefit proportionally equally. He even suggested the drip happening every few days as opposed to daily because the extra small accounts would not be able to collect if it is <0.001 Hive.
#Safemoon is taking 10% in both directions(sell/buy), 5% of which is provided in the liquidity pool and 5% is distributed amongst stakeholders - your stake grows over time and it adds a bit different dynamic to the system.
What I find amazing, is that the system compels you to hold. Why? Well, from the moment you bought the token, in order to have an even trade, the price has to either increase by more than 20%, or you'll have to wait a bit until you compensate the initial loss.
Safemoon started out that way and you have to do it that way to get some, the spirit and rules of the crypto are known and by using it you agree to the terms.
Steem and hive didnt start out that way and taking my crypto away from me years later because you think others should get some is nonsense thinking. We didnt agree to do this, nor do we want what little crypto we make talent away and given to others. Dont add communism to this chain.
Well your'e already close of being fully liquid so I see no reason for you to worry
I'm turning most of mine liquid because I need to use it for development stuff and paying people. Not because I want to get rid of hive and dont like it.
That also doesnt invalidate what I wrote.
I don't know this is a system that would be cool for web3. Sure it works for ponzi coins, but web3 should be easy and open.
Dapps need to move sometimes funds and so on. Tax everything doesn't work imo, is leeching the system and really projects that care.
If I understood correctly there should remain normal powerdown period, tax would come in place after instant powerdown is activated?
Btw I wasn't referring to its fundamentals, rather approach to tokenomics and as I far as I can see it worked!
Hmmm we read the same text?
Tax on power up.
Tax on power down.
Tax on rewards.
Do you think this way would work web3? From we spread tokens to we enrich the holders? Like a hidden selfvote?
I don't see any match why an Dapp should try hive if they know they need to pay for users, for transactions (RC), and get taxed if they want to release some money.
but it would mostly benefit those that don't power up at all in the short term. 5% to power up or 0% to sell right away to something else?
i am not sure i see the reason for taxing powring up. i have no problem with instant powerdown if there was an option to chose do i want to use it on my account. because i don't so i don't want to give that option to anyone potentially getting my keys.
Boom! Fire....
and now my idea looks conservative, right? :D
I like the idea, but a 5% power up tax? That seems like too much. Maybe make it 1%. people who power up are likely to be long term stakeholders, why tax them when they add to their position.
I like the rest.
Ya I prob went a little overboard with the power up tax, i still like it but not agaisnt making it lower. Its main purpose is to juice APY on paper to attract investors.
I like the idea a lot. I think this could be even better and more potent if it was also complemented with a change to add the same 5 or 10% "tax" to author payouts when choosing 50% liquid, but none if they choose all powered up. Then users are more incentivized to choose the 100% Power Up option, making PoB more potent as a decentralization mechanism of placing more actual stake in users hands, while also lowering sell pressure from liquid rewards. Users could still choose it, but then that benefits HP holders.
Do you mean less rewards for authors in case they set 50% ? Authors are already sharing 50% with curators, why they need to share an other 10% as a tax, that will not motivate people to create. The tax or the fee should be only for power down, not from the hard work of authors who already earn only during 7 days and if their content is not noticed, they will not earn at all.
Yes, less if they set 50% liquid payout. Or said in another way: That they don't pay the tax that @theycallmedan is proposing if they choose 100% power up.
Are there any creators on Hive right now that would make $100 per month anywhere else on the web with the amount of views that their content gets? My impression is that we are paying creators many times more than what their effort to attract views and engagement deserves.
We desperately need more platform economic models to help people monetize their following, engagement, views and contribution outside of the reward pool.
I don't view the tokens creators get from inflation as a reward mechanism, I view it as a mechanism to decentralized Hive by making users co-owners in the blockchain and thus get a say. Keep in mind that with this proposal, authors who choose to continuously power up their author rewards would be earning more and more "passive income" from the distributed tax.
So no, I don't think this would take anything away from anyone who deserves anything. Rather, it will give more to those who do.
Yes I completely agree, those who choose 100% HP rewards over liquid pay nothing into the pool.
I like.
How about underlined that part about power down taxes. Yep. I'm totally down with that. If you want a quicker dump without damaging the economy... Yes. Tax it to help us grow as community.
And rewarding the users that hodl!
And that tax should cover a ton. And should really provide liquidity for the community.
But keep it at just that. A tax for not waiting.
The rest? Why..... Why tax this and that when this is a big one that needs managed.
With every tax increase, long term investors ROI. If people see that can make a lot by staking for a long time, it's better for the underlining economy. For example, a 5% powerup tax simply energizes the pool, and if you power up, you should be here for the long term, so you'd ROI that 5% relatively quickly.
The tax on rewards is simply to benefit long term authors and stakers over short term authors and speculators. If you power up, opt for the "free" power down, IE the 13/4 week one, you'll still be gaining that passive ROI back with your HP. So you only hit the hardest, the ones that instantly power down all of their rewards without ever keeping any powered up, which are the people that should pay the most. They don't get hit that hard. They get most of their rewards, and they get them quickly, a change most would still take over the current setup.
Yep I actually believe that the option to instantly power down coming with a donation to better the entire Community is absolutely a wonderful balance to this entire 13/4 argument.
The people who are investing and so forth on chain definitely need to see returns and rewarding the current users would be a lot easier if we implemented this absolutely phenomenal new idea.
Bravo bravo good job!!!
At least if for nothing, it's it course a win-win situation; incentivize powering up and also give people who want a way out a means to do so, 13 weeks isn't bad either but then considering an investors point of view it might not be so cool. But at the end we must find a win win situation for especially for investors who want to stay powered up but take advantage of the prices at any time.
I'm all for keeping 13 weeks or reduction to 4 weeks. I reduction under 4 weeks puts possible take over and security risk on Hive however. I believe in the early power down tax. I feel like 5% power up though harms those wanted to get involved and simply benefits the top masses even more.
Final vote for me is
4 week - 10% early power down penalty
It's not super drastic but it seems fair across the board. After this though I'd like to see development being done over jerking around the curation rewards, staking, apr etc and get some real work done. (as far as I can tell we have been wasting a lot of time on such things instead of building more features on top of hive)
Very little time core dev time from my team has been spent on curation rewards changes (maybe two weeks) or the apr savings change (this latter was 2-3 days probably). No core dev time has been spent on staking (yet), unless you count the past couple of days when I've had to follow the discussions about it to stay informed about proposed ideas.
There has been a lot of time spent on things like development process improvement (setup of continuous integration system and testing frameworks), code refactoring (mostly in hivemind, but some in hived as well), many bug fixes, optimization work for scaling, and developing modular hivemind technology to ease development of scalable Hive apps. These are actually really important things for future efforts, but it's easy to miss them because they aren't as glamorous or relatable as protocol changes.
Good to know and thank you blocktrades. You're right, much of that is backend and we/I don't see it on our end so it can look stagnate. I have seen new posts coming out weekly or so from you guys and other devs which shines some light on this so thank you for taking the time to do so.
Do you feel at some point core devs will work on front ends?
Such as NFT's, a Marketplace, a swap portal that supports more cryptos/fiat conversion etc?
Or is most of this up to outside devs? I only ask because I would like to see some of this done but if it falls more on outside devs to build on top of Hive instead that's good to know so I can start looking for a team.
Generally, I prefer for other teams to work on UIs, mainly because there's so many types of UIs that can be created to do many different things.
I do have two guys that make occasional contributions to condenser (code base used by hive.blog), since it's an open-source project and several projects rely on it. We use that as a way to test new core features we're adding to the blockchain code that need a UI interface.
On the swap portal side, we develop blocktrades.us, of course. One of our main goals for that now is to add support for cheap Euro bank transfers. This should cut costs a lot for people to exchange between Hive-based currencies and fiat currencies (especially as it will allow them to avoid the high transaction fees associated with a lot of the intermediary currencies like BTC and ETH).
I think at some point long ago I suggested something similar when it comes to dispersing what you're now calling 'taxes' to current, confident, stakeholders, rather than burning.
These shortened periods or instant powerdown when combined with this social setting, the shit talkers, and emotional reactions; that combo kind of freaks me out. One rumor or some bad press (fact or fiction) could send people scrambling for the door. Monkey see, monkey do, so more join in. Three weeks later the smoke clears, everyone finds out it just bunk, but the damage is done. Confident holders don't gain from these taxes in that worst case scenario. Governance gets chipped away, combined with falling token value. Then we find out those behind the rumor are the ones attempting a Justin Sun sized dick move. One well executed smear campaign is one hell of a lot cheaper than buying millions of tokens at full price and attempting to take over that way. Not saying that will happen and I've left out plenty of details for good reason. But if I was an evil super genius, that's what I'd do if I felt like fucking this place over.
People benefit from getting others rattled in crypto, damn near daily. Even some random plagiarists or scammers getting downvoted then convincing others around them the sky is falling because downvotes could be enough to shake off a few minnows and dolphins.
So I'm a bit concerned but that's some worst case scenario shit. I'm sure we'll be safe flying our unicorns over the rainbows for years to come and this change will suddenly make the entirety of the crypto sphere finally pay more attention and load up on Hive because finally, it's just like everything else and that's all they wanted, or whatever, as our content remains void of an audience because there's no need to have paying consumers interested in our actual products when we have investors looking to make a quick buck.
Relax. I was joking there.
Edit: Just over a year later and one can see that actually happening now on another chain.
I appreciate you have a viewpoint I don't when it comes to the functionality of this "product." And I can be overly focused on tokenomics. I'm building the SPK network to help fill some voids for Hive, easy signup standard all can opt into, and "SMTs" but more like erc20s on Hive. I believe once we give people the chance to build their world, which includes a token, you'll see the platform grow.
We are a decentralised organization. We also need people who focus on keeping the lights on, making the token value grow, and attracting all people, and that includes investors and artists. I do like a lot of your suggestions, how the consumer virtually gets free entertainment for life if played right. How content creators can tip their audience to get buts in the seat to start a virtuous cycle. And I want to encourage that, even do some marketing on making people aware of that angle. But it's important, to me at least, to try and make sure we are at least doing the best job possible to not alienate potential investors when we need not to.
I haven't even minted an NFT. Part of the reason is because I look at the business model and feel it's old fashioned/outdated. Consumers going back to throwing that money away on entertainment and supporting their favs. The way content is created and consumed has changed. We don't wait years between albums now. We got fresh shit coming in weekly, sometimes daily. So that requires a new support system. You're one of the rare few who can kinda see what I see in that regard.
I understand and respect the fact all play some sort of pivotal role in this. Of course it's unwise to alienate the customers.
LOL. I've become a bit alienated. Not interested much in crypto anymore, but absolutely adore this project here. But not everything, like most people.
My content is a product found on Hive. Those NFT's; products. Your SPK network; product on Hive. All these second layer tokens are products found on Hive. And so on. I like how this list is getting long, offering more and more to potential consumers/investors of Hive. Meaning at some point attracting new money in the door should be a given.
A lot of confusion though. Holding all this Hive, making sacrifices, for years. I see you have more but we both know the feeling of sacrifice remains the same, regardless. It is, what it is. I'll admit your project with all the tokens and tokenomics confused the living fuck out of me to the point where I nearly lost interest. Other projects requiring I own tokens I've not even heard of in order receive an airdrop to be able to support a community I would have been interested in, making it impossible for me to support it, unless I sell HIVE to buy something else that is literally the same thing, but a different name. Then I have other tokens in my wallet and I don't even know how the fuck they got there or what they're for. And one human, in a day, with all these different little tokens and communities; it's impossible to support them all and get a reasonable amount in return, unless I delegate it away to a curation bot of sorts, meaning that community just lost a customer yet the customer still earns benefits.
So when we're done fiddling with knobs and twisting dials, again, let's sit down and try to sort this shit out, for the consumer/investor. That hackmd link up there. Is that a Hive product? Been here nearly five years and don't have the first clue about what's what anymore. Wrote this post last year for a reason. The problem I tried to highlight has only gotten far worse since then. It's now all turning into a consumer's nightmare and that will never sit well with me.
Ya, that post of yours was a home run. I remember when I first read it. It sparked the idea to fork a browser and have a Hive browser with all apps accessible on some right hand menu, as you said in your post. To create a synergy, a home, a entry point that leads people down various rabbit trails.
The SPK Network will bring a lot of cool back end stuff to Hive, oracles, cross chain decentralised gateways, just cool stuff. But what's cool stuff without connecting it all together. It's like having a cool looking puzzle piece that's separated from the rest.
I'll try and build something cool that displays all you can do on Hive. We have some many unknown projects that may or may not be awesome. Such a waste if we dont curate them
See, I'm not a developer but I'm creative and if I had chosen that path earlier on in life, I'd be able to offer more in that department, rather than just ideas and concepts. But I reveal my thoughts, even though they can be scattered at times, because I feel that's being a team player. So if I was developing an app or something/anything, I'd include code that plugs in somehow to popular front ends, rather than making a new one entirely to serve one purpose. Then whoever is calling the shots for whichever front end could review the product or whatever, add it to this section of their front end that is easily accessible and right under the noses of folks browsing around. Then they don't need to focus on creating awareness within the community or suffering from being a great project that somehow flew under the radar.
Still, your take on it would work. But then what if that particular front end/project suffers the same problem. It's off to the side and away from the social setting many seem to frequent. As a consumer of video content on Hive from time to time for instance, I need to tell you I've only visited the official 3speak site maybe five times in my entire life. If I want to browse content found in specific tribes, I simply click the tags commonly used, then browse on PeakD. And this isn't out of laziness, it's because it's simple and convenient.
So if you do work on that project that attempts to sort things out I'd suggest making damn sure there's a massive button that one can't miss sitting nicely at the top or side or somewhere in a place like PeakD, Hive.blog, whatever. It could come standard with the tribe sites as well. Damn near everything should have that button, somewhere, obvious. All it really is a simple link leading to more links and back.
Man. I talk too much and I apologize for being all off topic here while the community is busy trying wrap their heads around some new concepts. I'm 99% sure I suggested dispersing fees in this fashion at some point in the past, you saw it, and your response was something about me playing 4D chess, but at the same time, it's possible I'm blending a few memories and that never happened. Just seems so damn familiar like I been here before.
I don't see the benefit of a tax on powering up/rewards. Don't we want people to power up?
The power-down tax would be used to discourage power downs but offer the option of a quick liquidation. That I understand. But why would we want to discourage users from powering up in the first place? You lost me there.
If the tax pool gets dripped to HP holder accounts based on a holder's percentage of held HP, it sounds like whales would get all of the benefit while minnows would mostly get a 10% increase in difficulty in growing their accounts.
How much tax from minnow rewards/power-ups would be funneled into idle whale accounts? Should idle accounts grow at the expense of those actively engaging in the community? I'd need to see some math before considering something like this. It looks pretty anti-minnow on the surface.
Its a flat %, no one gets more or less than anyone else. If you have a low amount of HP you pay way less than someone with large HP. If the person with large HP cashed out, it would mean the low HO benefits greatly. If anything, small accounts that power up for a long time stand to benefit the most. They put in the least and stand to gain the most in comparison.
That definitely sounds more appealing. The question that comes to mind is what would prevent people from liquidating everything except 50HP in order to get the tax distribution? What about people who create a hundred accounts that each have 10HP.
Or would the distribution only be for people paid into the tax pool?
So the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer with tax.
Not everyone can afford to run their content creation blogs/dapps/witness/nodes/communities fully out of pocket without supplementing whatever they are involved in with what it generates from it on Hive.
Taxing people decreases the incentive for people to spend money on improvements to make their blogs and vblogs better and more relevant. Those that can only afford to run witness/nodes/other infrastructure with Hive would be taxed on something that is most likely not covering the costs as it is to do. Many projects that only generate anything from their blogs will struggle even further may no longer see it worthwhile to even use Hive with the endless effort that is required for cents.
Taxing people like a government enriches a few at the cost of growth for everyone else. Then you add on the actual tax burdens from counties people live in and suddenly with a 20-60% tax from counties, the 5% to power up, 10% tax on rewards, 10% unstack you are fucked. That is before benefactions are taken from posts which many will have to require for dapp/community and who knows what else one day such as node usage.
For the many reasons above I only see whales that don’t plan on doing much wanting to opt into such a system for the most part as they can just do nothing and collect the biggest part of the pie.
Perhaps the exchanges would love to power Hive and eat up most of those rewards since they could easily power down when needed. While also sharing the reward with their day traders who will not be moving coins off exchanges since that puts them at risk of down wallets during price spikes and not having stop loss /sell orders in place.
RC at this time is worthless due to the lack of innovation and driving people to a use case for it. Along with how efficient the blockchain has been made it's quite a mountain of a task just to move the needle on.
The poor don’t have to get poorer if they hold for longer, in fact they get rich.
I don’t see it like that, people will do what they want to do, it might only take longer, what might take anyone to accumulate and spend in 2weeks will probably take 4weeks or 5, which is 4-5weeks of time to even grow more.
Exchanges will not want to power up peoples funds at will, what happens when a user needs their funds, if they will go the route of powering down at a whim then they will be the ones paying 10% fees for the instant PD,.....if my tokens are in an exchange and for some reason as slimy as they powered up my funds so I can’t access, best believe I’m never going to that exchange again when my funds are out, and I’m never going to stop talking about it. Binance did, and got away with it, there was no fees to pay. However if the gains they make by powering up users funds outdoes the fees they incur to power down then the system is flawed.
I doubt the rewards they will share to traders will be minute compared to the rewards traders will make from trading themselves......especially after paying 10% fees to power down
It's funny you have the view because when I was game theorizing this, I thought the exact opposite. Who stays powered up the longest? It's usually smaller accounts. Sure they power down some but not all. Who power down the most? Whales. Whales are either in or out. I can put a dozen examples on this very chain where when a whale power down, it's because of a investment reason, and they clean slate and move on.
Who pays the most in this system? Whales do, of course. They pay 5% just like everyone, except when they leave, they don't get that 5% back, and all the smaller accounts are sticking around benefits from their very large contribution.
A small account pays the least to enter yet stands to gain the most in the form of ROI.
It's a flat 5% that all pay and all get back if they remain in HP. If your rewards are in HP and you don't instant power down but opt for the 13 weeks, you pay nothing. I fail to see how the small count is harmed here?
I would like to see something happen. I don't mind the 13 or 4 week option, but I do think there should be some additional costs for fast powerdown that benefit those who stay powered up. This might be an interesting gamification layer!
Ya, there is nothing like staying loyal when Hive goes to the moon and people insta dump. Those that stay behind can end up being rewarded nicely, so there are no hard feelings for people leaving. You'd actually be quite happy to see them go! :)
Just like the 5min voting window, which has finally be changed this coming HF, for the better. I think this 13 week no way out is sort of outdated, and as we see, a lot is speaking up and saying some pretty neat ideas. The cool thing is there is a lot to learn from with defi, and we can take advantage of that.
The other thing about the sellers is that they benefit massively from those who stay powered up. It is interesting that after a bullrun they laugh and say "should have sold, because I made..." but if the large accounts di, they would get dumped on and make far less. The more incentive to hold the better for both sides.
HF25 is going to be cause a shakeup for sure. will be interesting to see how the auto-maximizers react. The other thing that'll be interesting (if included this HF) will be the additional interest on HBD in the savings wallet to help with the stabilizer.
We go to the moon? Ha! Staking even harder! Haven't taken any out at all and letting this and the portfolio grow...
Yep! The tax on pulling out quicker is a huge deal. I'm hugely in favor.
The rest. Why? This could be a great game changer.
I 95% agree, the 5% I don't agree with is Power Up tax, why penalise that which everything else is meant to encourage, that just doesn't make any sense!
I love the idea of the instant PD but with a tax and incentivising longer term Power Ups, and as you say NOW it all seems very feasible as DEFI has introduced this.
It'd be nice to have a smooth sliding scale - from 10% tax for instant down to free for 13 weeks or more, why not extend it while we're at it.
Man, Hive could take DEFI to the next level!
One more thing - our 10% is staking return for curation, and add in now the returns to come on HBD savings, that's precisely the rate most sensible DEFI and CEFI platforms seem to be settling on.
The only thing I can't figure out is why Hive isn't at $10 already!?
Great idea.
Yep I'm definitely not sold on the additional taxes however this big one about taxing power down sounds like an absolutely phenomenal way we can balance this.
Definitely don't tax powering up.
But let's stick to the main issue and circle back to the win-win for the community.
The power-down tax is a good idea, but, the power-up tax, I'm not there yet. I don't understand how we would get the money back and don't you think that would be a deterrent for new people to want to power up?
While we are talking HF25, are the rewards going to change again? I have heard some on this, but, not enough.
Thanks~
Everyone who powers up puts 5% into a pool that is given out daily to HP holders. Only 2% of the total pool is given out daily. So as people cash out those who remain are still getting that 2% of the pool from everyone who put in 5%. So over time you would make the 5% back + more depending how long you stayed powered up. Its not really a tax per say as it goes right back in your pocket unless you cash out quickly.
Thanks and sorry. I see you did say that... several times.
no worries its a whacky idea but I wanted to see how the community felt.
It appears to be a simple thing. Proposing a tax to benefit the blockchain as a whole is sound. Some taxes are not warranted. Taxing powerups is counterintuitive as staking HIVE helps its value. There's no way I'll power up if 5% goes to the system.
Similarly, taxing the practice of claiming rewards seems ridiculous. What is the reasoning for a proposal of additional taxation rules? How can we know for sure that these rules won't change over time? It's a good topic for an AMA session.
There's no such thing as pure decentralization. You can't have a blockchain like a Hive without someone managing things. So, I see the reason for taxes. You have my support provided management addresses some crucial issues.
I have to agree to a proposal like what you present because there are areas I feel aren't addressed yet. Mr. Acidyo made recent posts regarding unacceptable behavior in Hive. What efforts have been made to address his concerns? Other people have commented on voting abuses that appear to be relegated to the "Whining" section of content.
Since powering up helps the value of hive, a tax on instant down powers makes sense. I see no issues there. As always, thank you very much for the proposal. The engagement will help us grow.
Until the final proposal comes, I will say no to any taxation at this time.
I would also like to see a system where the power down accounts lose the ability to participate in the governance of Hive and the witness selection system. If an account is set to power down 50% or more then all the witness votes from that account get pulled, even if the next week they stop the power down, then there powered up Hive should be treated as newly powered up and be ineligible to vote for witness or other governance items.
If the power down is fast or instant, this sort of happens automatically. You power down, boom, you're powered down, you don't get to vote.
It's only an issue at all because of the current slow power down process.
So as a person powers down their vote weight for witness is automatically reduced to the amount of vest they have? Thank you I did not realize that, I thought the vest weight at time of vote stayed until next vote. Thank you for helping understand that better.
Yes witness, proxy, and proposal (DHF) votes adjust immediately down to current stake (when powering up, the new stake is delayed from voting for 30 days). Votes on content stay as they were at the time the vote was made.
Maybe better to make them not earn in the blockchain set APR which maybe isn't a lot but 3.28% apr is not nothing. Having less people involved in the governance is not a good thing... we want more involved to have more decentralization.
It seems that it would add a layer of protection from possible hostile entities. We protect the chain from possible incoming hostile entities by making them wait one month to fully participate.
It would affect a lot of the smaller accounts, but the reality is that only the large accounts vote the witness in vote for proposals and other such things. The ability for the small accounts to effect who is is not a top 20 witness is pretty insignificant.
But yes having a smaller group of people controlling things would be just as bad, however the small accounts would then have more power to determine who is and who is not a top 20 witness.
Is this a joke?
Put another way
Why would you want to do something like this while also making three speak which the goal is to get away from big corporations and the unethical chasing of profits?
By you advocating this I think you've lost your mind.
No for taxes.
with you @drakos, people come to "decentralized blockchain" which let's be real DPOS tends to use it as a buzzword...
cause we all know it isn't some sort of fair socialist thing which is fine by me but taxing people who are already putting their investment money elsewhere (and that's a lot) is counterintuitive to onboarding which doesn't seem to be a big goal. yarrrrrr drakos, when btc is one dollar we will be T-Rex's in the new shiny non aquatic based caste system. We all can be a type of dinosaur.....calling dibs on Velociraptor :P
axey
Let's also add in this case dan is in fact proposing theft, adding in code to take crypto away from you for powering up or anything and arbitrarily giving to others is nonsense.
How about we call them relief checks?
!popcorn
I would have said !drama, but that lady got yelled at and doesn't come around so much anymore.
Are you going to ensure all the small bots collecting this "relief check" filled out their taxes in the previous year, are over 18 or emancipated, and a U.S. citizen?
I like the idea of a gradual powerdown + instant powerdown tax
10 week power down = Free
9 week power down = .5% tax
8 week power down = 1% tax
7 week power down = 1.5% tax
6 week week power down = 2%
instant = 5%
Why punish your own powerup with 5% tax and get rewarded by everyone elses powerups?
I don't like this concept because it would lead to poeple making "ponzi scheme" comparisons.
As someone who has never powered down I like this idea a lot. We should be rewarded more for staying with HIVE and keeping our HIVE Power locked up.
Agreed. The only time I've ever hit powerdown was when I powered down my Steem during the switch to Hive. I got half back lol.
This seems very counter-intuitive, especially for noobs. Sure, some people will grok that they’ll get it back later, but for everyone else it will probably seem to be a strong disincentive to power up.
Sure. As long as standard powerdowns are still free and takeover/security issues can be addressed satisfactorily.
Just a guess, but this would probably result in more pissing and moaning than a room full of Justin Suns.
Haha ya I just wanted to get a feel for where everyone is at. Game theory how to take away from short term people and give to long term people.
Why punish users for powering up or claiming?
Why make it a no-brainer for an attacker to drain an account instantly and run away with 90% of the loot?
Yes, we need shorter powerdown times. No, we don't need to tax people for it.
Looks like wash trading, to me.
But, if it transfers from those that are powering down to those that power up, I'm not against that.
thinking sorta the same but agree with some of it but yeahhhhh, there are OG's on here who keep waiting to see what happens with the next HF before they put a dime or another dime into it not to mention that even if 'blogging' for free monies isn't everyone's cup of vodka it helps visibility to those who do want to onboard and have some type of "middle class".
Hf25 should do wonders for comments.
How it empowers the maximizers is what we should monitor.
When
steemlaunched it had all it needed to have altered the world, that was intentionally kneecapped.Not all those installed by the kneecapper in chief have left, yet.
Until they do, the things they do may seem to help, but won't really.
The split for the little guys is getting better, though.
I am okay with the instant power down fee, totally fine with that and 4 week powerdowns times, but I am in now way okay with getting charged to power up my Hive or getting charged 10% on all my rewards... nope sorry... don’t have my vote for that one.
The proposed "tax" to powerup is a bad idea. We want to encourage people to stake hive not the opposite. Same goes for the "tax" on claiming rewards. Think about it, 75% of the rewards are in the form of staked hive (already locked up) and the other 25% is comprised of HBD not Hive.
I have never powered down in my almost 5 years on the network (except when I was doing it to pay for a recurring delegation that I was getting from blocktrades back in 2018). But, if a change like this goes into effect then that would signal to me that it's time to sell my Hive position (with regrets).
I am ok with charging a fee (tax is a "bad" word) for instant powerdowns but the other 2 components of your proposal are a dealbreaker.
There are other better ways of removing Hive from circulation than adding friction to the system like for instance adding use cases that burn it. Or increasing the interest payed on the savings account that (combined with the ability to convert Hive to HBD) could potentially lockup millions of coins and turn the blockchain into a defacto DEFI ecosystem.
Introducing a tax to power up and to claim rewards automatically reduces the APR making Hive less attractive to investors. Combine that with the fact that the inflation rate is being reduced until it eventually goes below 1% and you get a recipe for an economic disaster for Hive.
Very interesting. I have always been of the idea that one way to increase incentive to stake Hive is increasing the APR which currently is at 3%. Surely one can get much better else where.
Many investors won't care about the governance bit and I am sure if someone did a graph to show how often people vote for witnesses it will be quite revealing.
Give people more reasons to stake Hive. It doesn't have to be just as HP but also in pools such as the Diesel Pools on the new Hive Engine. Basically, less liquid Hive the better the prices.
Posted using Dapplr
This was my offer.
And yes, 'investors' need to look at the diesel pools and trading bots on hive-engine to provide some liquidity to those markets.
Then maybe the price can go up and we can stop worrying about the pool so much.
everything else unchanged.
Seriously, taxes?
I like this idea much better than bringing the old paradigm to a no fee chain.
A fee to power up, smdh.
Okay with the power down "tax".
Cut out the rest of the road bumps. Let's not go overboard and erase the pros for normal users, which is mostly feeless transactions.
LoL that's fucking retarded. nice bait, at least you got ppl REEEEEEEeing in the comments section below.
haha no joke
I'm totally confused 😕
Why would there be a 5% powerup tax?
If you stayed powered up you make that 5% back and more. It is to make sure long term holders are rewarded greater than short term holders.
Aah. Okay cool!
oh, that's excited, now I finally get your ideas. It will be interesting to power up in thay case, but that 5% should be for everyone, not only whales !
Reward the strong hands! Love that angle. And it would make holding and powering up HP that much more attractive.
So there will be a 10% tax in claiming rewards for those who will power down? Is this kind of punishment will be forever? I"m just wondering since the fast power down will only happen once. It's true that if there are people who will leave they should leave something in the pool. I'm thinking that I hope the taxes will only happen once during the power down process.
There is a free power down option, the 13/4 week. The tax on rewards goes back to the authors and stakeholders that stay powered up. So it's no loss to long term authors. It is a big gain as they benefit from the authors that both instantly power down and never stay powered up.
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I don't think I understand this part
If you want to cash out now you can pay a fee and liquidate. However all those fees are going to help out and stabilizing things for anybody wishing to depart.
I see it as a selling point if you really do want to cash out.
you'd be 'charged' 10% for unstaking or powering down to basically "cash out" fast
moneygames
Doesn't seem fair.
Very interesting thoughts here, something like this could be very valuable.
I like the idea of early power down taxes but I'm not so sure about power up taxes. Wouldn't that penalize those that buy hive?
I'm trying to understand this, we already give a portion of the rewards to the DAO right? And then there would be this other cost:
Small users don't invest much because we can't, and if I have to pay to invest and then to be able to withdraw my investment, which nobody assures me I will have profits because then there are those who want to regularize the rewards by giving downvotes because a post already reached a certain amount or because x person voted for it, I think small content creators would go elsewhere, and everyone is the owner of saying where he wants to be, but without content creators the system is finished because there is no curation to be done.
Yes to 10% instant unstake tax, no to everything else.
Very interesting...
Just so I get this right, that's 10% tax to claim my rewards, and 5% to power up, total 15% tax if I'm here for the long term. Whilst for those who want instant power down, it's 20% tax. The 5% tax difference between those who are here for the long term and those who aren't isn't a lot when you're talking about 15% - 20%.
As to the tax pool, given that there will be inflow every day, where does the remaining 98% go please?
2% of the pool is dripped out daily to all HP holders. And it would be 10% to cash out rewards for half, as half isnt powered up.
I'm all for anything that's increasing my long term holdings, lol.
Not a big fan of that 5% tax. Maybe only apply that tax to those who go for having the option to 10% cash out. But free power down users should be able to power up for free.
In general, I like something like this.
Regarding the power up tax, there might be a way to get the intended outcome without adding a persevered hurdle to powering up. For instance, all of the Hive could be powered up but the tax is collected from the tax pool drip. For instance, let’s say someone powers up 1000 Hive. They now owe 50 Hive in tax. As they get the drip, the amount they owe decreases until it reaches 0, at which point they start earning from the drip. The chain will know how much they owe so if they power down before it is collected, the tax is paid during the power down. The tax wouldn’t be avoided but it also would be as obvious either.
Does the pool come back as powered up Hive or liquid Hive?
Seems obvious to me: HP.
I don't see the point of it being liquid Hive.
Instant powerdown could be a serious security issue. I think it should be at least 4 weeks or 6 weeks.
Power up & rewards Tax, I'm not in for that.
Power down tax seems good, but 10% is also a huge amount as compared to defi or other protocols, but yes, to get gains over pump, 10% wouldn't matter. So we can have discussion on this. Also there should be options to lower the power down period with penalty, so people can decide which option is best for them.
People who power up hive, are mostly not traders to catch market. It makes sense to have some decent portion of liquid hive if someone wants to take the advantage of price action. Powering up gives much more benefits for stakers as you already mentioned above.
I love the idea of the power down tax. I've been powering up pretty much everything, all the tokens, so if someone wants to dump some tax onto me and the general HIVE ecosystem as a whole, and they can take profit, that sounds fair.
I'm worried about the power up tax disincentivizing users to staking. I understand that long term staking rewards would recuperate the 5% tax loss, but I can say from personal experience I usually have to eat a bunch of fees and whatnot to even buy HIVE and get it onto my account in the first place. Then having to eat another 5% on top if I stake it seems like even less appealing. Just my 2 cents.