Last night, a friend asked a favour of me, it wouldn't be overly difficult to fulfil but would take a couple of hours to complete. She had taken some photos of her daughter (on her phone) for a Christmas card for friends and family but, there were some issues and they required some quite heavy editing. I said I would have a look and see what I could do, but no promises.
This morning, she sent them across via email and then Whatsapp'd to ask for my account number and the price. My response was, 'In what world did you think I would charge you for this?'
So, at what point does one charge a friend? This is the second time in a week this issue has come up with the first one being with someone from Steemit I have never met in person.
Living in Finland, I have come across this often with one example being when many years ago my phone broke and I needed a replacement. My friend said he had an old Nokia 8210 (6 years old at the time) in a drawer and I could have that one, for 10€. He was definitely not in need of the money yet, he could not let it go without a token price. I was his Best Man at his wedding.
I understand offering to pay but, I would feel very awkward asking for or taking money from a friend for something that has very little value or is a couple hours work. Where is the line, is there a convention I don't know about?
Some people have the attitude to 'Never work for free,' if there isn't something tangible in it for them, they will not do it. My approach is that there is value in the relationship itself and at times one provides a service and other times they receive. Like buying rounds of drinks.
Perhaps my friend would prefer to pay than to owe a favour in return, even though it is a favour I would never collect upon. Maybe she feels it would hang over her head somehow. Since she lives a few hundred kilometres away, it could be that she knows it is unlikely that she would be able to take me for a coffee like she offered (Wine if I did a decent job) after I refused to give my bank account.
The other week, I transported my in-laws to and from the airport so they didn't need to pay for a taxi yet, they made me take money for the trip. There was no refusing it. In my opinion, we are family and no money is required. Am I naive?
It is not like I couldn't use the money from time to time but in my view, the rarity of the requests and the small amounts involved make the value of the money insignificant in regards to the value of a long-term relationship. When money is involved in personal relationships, pettiness often follows. Perhaps this is why they say 'Don't mix business with pleasure' and 'Don't get into business with family.'
Personal relationships can become difficult when money is involved as it applies many different kinds of stressors from performance expectations to defaults on payments. I prefer to keep some separation between business and social but I find it difficult to do so in my line of work as personal approach is a big part of my business. Clients soon become friends.
I wonder in the long-term, what kinds of effects on relationships having social networks tied to currencies and payments between friends will have. What do you think about money between friends situations? Any experiences?
Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]
Oh, I did a good enough job to qualify for being owed a glass of wine.
Great topic bro.resteemed
Thanks.
My rule is never lend money to family, if you are in a position to help, than just give it to them. If the money comes back then that's fine. But if it doesn't, you aren't left feeling used. Always give freely with no expectation of return and all will be good. That being said, don't give money you don't have. Your just digging a hole for yourself.
As for expecting money in return for small favours and such, i also refuse. It's nice to be able to help others for no reward, that feeling of goodness inside is payment enough!
Yes! Me too, family and friends. Perfectly worded @mumofmany. Thank you for starting the conversation @tarazkp.
I have dug too many holes :)
Yes, that was a lesson I learned the hard way.
A very healthy perspective - to avoid issue in the future. (from my own experiences)
Within the Steem economy things are the other way around: you don't agree on a price per hour of writing, but you simply put in the work. Then, according to however the community values it, you might get rewarded.
I'd answer to my friends: here are the photo edits, here's the thing you wanted me to do and this is my account/wallet, if you feel like this should be rewarded somehow, feel free to do so, but OK if not.
On Steem, I think the culture is made for financial reciprocity so it is more accepted. In the case of the Steem friend, it was for a write that I would be get voted upon anyway by the community. In such a case, I can't justify taking payment on top with regards to my personal integrity.
It is sometimes easier to pay money than always think that you own a favor. This favor may cost more in future so some people want to sort it immediately. Especially when they have more cash than free time.
It depends on the relationship I think. I have a close member of the family who I have learned never to take a helping hand from, the future cost is near limitless.
Is it me or is everything becoming more and more monitized. It is sad.
Yes, it is. Everyone wants a return.
I err on the side of giving. I think if you have the capacity to offer service ... you should give it. It is like paying back for everything that has been done for me.
We have spoken of grace before, people often forget that they have benefited at times too.
This is one of the many reasons why I'm a proponent of the idea of a gift economy. I don't like to commodity relationships. But at the same time, I am working towards financial independence from any work that I don't like and I don't see anything wrong, with accepting money from anyone who can afford it and feels they want to support me (I'm actually going to write about this soon). The thing about a gift economy though is that you don't ask because you don't expect...and since most people don't have the concept to just give for free, it's hard to find people who act this wayoutside of certain communities. It does happen though. If I let a friend stay at my house for a week or two I won't ask them for money but if they offer, I'll gladly take it....unless they have much less than me, then no way would I accept a penny.
I don't know if you have read any of my pieces where I talk about Patrons at Steemit but I am fortunate enough to get some support on some work so I see my role in the community in offering at least some of it forward. The patrons allow this space so if I can help someone, somewhere, I do. Not everyone has financial aid to give but everyone has something, a smile and a thank you can be enough.
link me up ;-)
Man has the mind and the heart
From the actions of my friends I know who treats me with his heart and who treats me with his mind
Does it matter which when it comes to quality of friend?
yes sure
I think we need to get past the mindset that a business relationship and a personal relationship can't exist simultaneously.
I like you. You write things I benefit from reading, I upvote them and we both benefit.
If we're close, I help you move house and you take my kids for a weekend so I can take the wife on a sneaky holiday.
Whether it's informal bartering for mutual benefit or more formal payment for services rendered; they're each based on the idea that we exchange value for value on mutually agreeable terms.
The problem comes perhaps when only one side of the relationship thinks this way as it can lead to being taken advantage of. I agree that they should be able coexist yet too often, it ends in resentment.
I'm with you but then I have little money to give. That said I am consciously generous of myself. Folks are sometimes sniffy around money but it feels great to help others for the simple joy of helping others eh. Good for you I'd say xox
I enjoy helping out and being of use so I regard it as part of the payment. In this case, I called it a Christmas gift.
I’m a firm believer in relationships maintenance as well as in paying it forward.
But I respect those who insist on contributing and will not fight their will too hard. That mostly because I know “I will get them back”, just so I can feel I did things out of friendship and not because of the reward. The reason I respect their will is because I don’t know if they’ve been burnt before when not giving something in return.
Yet, when I worked alongside homeless people, for a charity (Emmaus, there’s one in Finland too AFAIK) one of the ground rules as instilled by its founder was that those in need needed to give/contribute something. No matter how small that contribution was, it was important they realised that nothing was for free. That was mostly because then they would value what they got more.
I don't give money to beggars unless they are doing something, anything at all to show that they are willing to offer more than a hand out for coins.
"Got a problem? Odds against you? Call the Equalizer. 212 555 4200."
Yup! free of charge. Services as a troubleshooter, a protector, and an investigator....
Oh! but yeah! You won't avoid owe a favour in return!! :)
I used to love watching that show as a kid. One of my brothers and I would watch it weekly :)
Haha yeah. It was my suspicion you actually did watch that tv show. :)
I would have to imagine that a world where social networks are linked to payments would strain relationships. This is very applicable to the Black Mirror episode "Nose Dive" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5497778/). Many relationships would become very shallow. Every action people take would be an attempt for more social clout. I have never seen Steemit in this light before 🤔
I haven't seen many episodes but, I think Black Mirror is not too far from reality.
By now you know I'm weird, right? Money obsession is a disease. Here's my take on your problem.
The only righteous way to accept money for something is if it is
Simple and straightforward rules to live by. You probably won't get ahead this way but then, ultimately, there is no ahead to get to: only the end.
I think there is no righteous way either then :)
Money is a simple tool yet many treat it as some kind of indicator of success. I am much less impressed by how many hammers someone has than what they can build by using them.
Or destroy.
monetarism perverts/twists all human behaviors... no exception
I would disagree as money itself is a tool like any other. The tool can by the skills and services of others without perversion. It is not the way it is generally used though.
the big picture is more accurate, look at the world, completely corrupt by money. Hence people cannot have the appropriate behaviors. If the foundations are corrupt, so is the rest. It is like giving charities money while their CEOs earn 500k-1 million yearly :) . In this environment, the best intent cannot do a thing.
My blog and website promote a money free society
I really like doing work for friends and family. I often either charge very little or ask for small favors in return; I call this payment in kind. As an example, I recently painted the side of a friends house and in return for my labor he performed a service on my car. If you can do it sustainably, it's a great way to get by in life. Although it's quite clear that money can corrupt friendship, I do think that it's important for a service to be rewarded. Maybe payments in kind represent a less corrupting way of rewarding a service.
I like the physical reciprocity of favours too, especially between friends/family. It is community building where skills can be shared.
Money is a tricky subject in most relationships. Personally, I agree with you, @tarazkp, I find the idea of friends paying me absurd. It's weird, like, I got you a cup of coffee and you try to give me the money for it - seriously?
I always feel embarrassed when this happens and tell them to stop with that - it's nonsense. And no offense, but I think what your friend did with the phone is just silly... I don't see it as owing a favor, not for small things, I just think it's something friends do for each other. 'Cause they're friends.
I saw it as silly too but knowing him, I can excuse his mentality (at least at that time). In Finland they rarely buy rounds of drinks because people try to take advantage of the opportunity. On their round it is a tap beer, when it is someone else's turn, Scotch Whiskey. As a result, everything here is paid for and split precisely and arguments break out if there is a euro either way.
Wow honeydue,
I guess the whole nature of friendships is undergoing a fundamental change. Weird for Middle-Aged persons like me especially.
@tarazkp I usually feel bad to eat or drink too much or something too fancy when someone else is paying, I'm always calculating what my meal costs.I guess that ain't logical either...'cause I don't see it that way when I'm buying.
@simivalleyjeff53 I don't know if it's a fundamental change...I guess some people have good manners and (what I see) as common sense and decency, some don't...same as always
Thats a very good and appreciating thought.