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RE: Meaning in a World Without God

in #philosophy • 7 years ago (edited)

"no objective values which means no right and wrong"

This is where we disagree, and I spent the majority of the post explaining why and how. The main thing is that you are confusing the concept of "right/wrong" with "value". (And it's totally understandable that you do, since the majority of people do likewise.)

Right/wrong is an answer to a question: does X achieve my intention? If yes, then it's right; if no, then it's wrong. The answer is objective. Value - the thing that the right/wrong question is asking about - is subjective, in that value requires a subject, or conscious agent, to exist.

I think the main reason for this substitution between "moral" and "value" is the god concept. Those who believe in a god take it as a given that god's commands are right. Therefore there's no need to consider them or test them. The command becomes a value. But that substitution is only an accident, a misunderstanding. The command is not the value. The command is how you achieve the value.

7 years ago in #philosophy by
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     7 years ago (edited) 

    Another value I hold is my health.

    Why?

    The answer is that we know there are more valuable things in the world than money.

    How?

    And while every person may have a different hierarchy of lower-end values, all such values point toward a single value: a happy life.

    According to who?

    You answer these question in your post...by circling back and starting your argument again.

    You have simply replaced “God” with yourself. Everyone else is free to do the same. If they are not free to do the same, why?

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       7 years ago  

      I will say, though, that from my perspective, God is a non-concept. I'm not replacing God with myself; it's just that the majority of folks replace themselves with God. :) However, for the sake of the debate, I'm granting that God would count as a conscious agent or subject.

      "Everyone else is free to do the same. If they are not free to do the same, why?"

      Not only is everyone free to do the same - they have no choice about it. Just as value is dependent on a subject - a conscious agent doing the valuing - so conscious agents are forced to value. There's no way around it.

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       7 years ago  

      I'm not really sure how or why, but you still seem to be missing my argument. We've done this dance before. :) The only way to move forward with a fruitful discussion is to first recognize one thing:

      Means and ends are different. (Though I grant you that some things can be both means AND ends.)

      If you agree with that, then we can move forward.

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