I think that Universal Basic Income (UBI) is the dumbest idea currently circulating, and I am amazed at how many otherwise thoughtful and articulate people are proposing it. So much so, I am beginning to think I must have missed something, maybe it’s me that’s wrong.
Please can someone explain this idea to me, help me understand what the hell is going on! What have I missed here?
First, a brief summary of my objections, of why UBI makes no sense whatsoever.
The conversation around UBI seems to revolve entirely around the desirability of this idea. People ask if it is a good idea to give everyone free money, will it make people creative, or lazy? This completely misses the point, because UBI is not actually possible in any way that makes sense, and here’s why.
The government, in most countries, is entirely funded by taxing society. The government taxes you, and is spending your money for you. The higher taxes are, the less of your money you have left to spend on yourself. It’s zero-sum. So the government would have to raise taxes to pay for UBI, meaning that UBI is just some of your own tax dollars handed back to you. What is the point of government taking money from you with one hand, only to give you back some of your own money with the other hand. That’s not free money, it’s your own tax dollars given back to you.
If your interested in giving people free money, it is logical to first start by stopping taking money from people. To both give and take, at the same time is pointless, as the two actions will cancel each other out on net. What is the point in me taking $20 from you and then giving you $10 back? I should have only taken $10 in the first place.
The people suggesting UBI never seen to mention tax cuts. Have they forgotten that the state is only funded by taxes? Consider for example sales tax, lets say it’s 15% (a typical rate for most western countries). Everyone pays the 15% tax on everything they buy from every store. Rich and poor alike pay this 15% tax. Even a child buying a chocolate bar is paying this tax, it is universal taxation. What is the point in universal taxation at the same time as universal income? The effects of both will cancel each other out. What is the point in making everything we buy in every store more expensive, in order to fund free money for all? It is circular, and dare I say it, dumb.
The only thing UBI will achieve is the creation of a useless bureaucracy responsible for this pointless function. This impoverishes everyone, as it is a financial drag on society.
UBI is not a new idea, it is thousands of years old, and it has always been a foolish idea used to trick people. The Roman emperor would put on a free display of gladiators with free food, the proverbial bread and circuses. European medieval kings would put on lavish feasts to stop the peasants from becoming restless. All the fools cheered the generosity of the king, not understanding that it was their taxes that were coercively extracted from them that funded the free food they now enjoying.
Ultimately, there is no source of free prosperity that can be tapped into and handed out. There is no infinite river of wealth that we can drink from. The more free stuff society asks for from the state, the more the state will have to raise your taxes to pay for it, do you see the circularity of this absurd notion?
Please, someone, enlighten me! This system of free wealth for everyone, that just keeps on flowing month after month, without the need for work, how does this function? Where does the free wealth come from?
A major revenue flow would be by taxing automated systems which replace (lower level) jobs. The current UBI debate is entirely AI/Singularity fuelled.
Taxing automated machinery enough to pay the salary of the worker that was displaced, will remove the financial justification for the new machinery. Since the government does NOT own that business, they do not have the right to make that decision.
Socialism is an economic cancer that is 100% fatal, 100% of the time.
:'(It’s not necessarily socialism in the communist way. Y’all need to learn that there’s 256 shades of grey. Welfare states can work well, but they are very challenging systems to tune. See Finland and Norway, while totally “socialist” - since labeling black or white style is the popular thing to do - they are among the best faring states.
The UK would have had a better fare too if it weren’t so darn obsessed by austerity. After all, the UK is the most socialist country of all (together with Canada) with the NHS.
But yes, the current UBI buzz is entirely knee jerk based because of the next industrial revolution.
UBI is not the solution but at least it will reset the clock to early 60s and totally revive entrepreneurial vibe and opportunities. All tests so far have proven that people do not just sit on their ass when given the opportunity to not need to worry about their monthly dues. So in a sense take from those who kill job opportunities and make disposable income available to those without jobs.
The problem is thinking like ‘it’s a cancer’ and that most governments are focused not on investing but on cuts. That breaks the income/tax circle.
I know that the government doesn’t own the machinery but the companies can sod off to the countries where they will not be taxed if they do not want to be part of the system. And you will notice, that worldwide, incentives for companies are always because of what they can contribute to the economy... which is always measured first in form of jobs created.
So if they want to automate that’s fine... but there’s a cost to it (and honestly, I’m not a fan of work for life or anything like that... I’ve not benefited any dime of support for a quarter of a decade and that in’t bound to change as a digital nomad). We have a problem, it’s called population size and we all know that “when the people have nothing to lose anymore they lose it”. So we need to adapt the system to work for everyone.
If that’s a cancer... then I will gladly be terminal.
But the real cancer is greed though. Systems which exponential favor the top and lobbying. If we could just get rid from all tax deductions above xx... there would be way less issues. Have a look into how much tax $tarfck$ and amazon pay everywhere.
We will have to agree to disagree. I have not seen anyone on the government dole make a job for anyone, discounting drug sales!
I watched a very good woman, mortgage her house, and build a company that employed 26 people. You are telling me she did not deserve the profit, when she took all the risks?
The big corporations do NOT make up a decent source for jobs. Here in the US 95% of all employment comes from small businesses. These are the ones most easily destroyed by government intrusion.
One other thing most people do NOT understand, if you add 10% to a corporation tax rate, their prices will go up by 12 to 14%. Corporations do NOT pay any taxes, EVER! The end user pays the Entire tax load when they consume the product. I have sat in on these meetings, so I can tell you that is accurate, from direct experience.
A little bit of socialism is like a little bit pregnant; it all ends up the same way, it is only a difference of the time it takes to arrive at the destination. There is a difference between healthy and hanging in. The Countries you list that are socialists will continue low level growth at best, but they will never thrive. With no personal reward, Why work hard? Coast and collect, but no matter how big the system, it must fail eventually, because it does not make any excess.
It is simple math, spend more than you make, and you go broke. Our biggest problem today is a near fatal dose of socialism.
Socialism has but one goal, and the communists understood this :
~ Nikita Khrushchev
Be Blessed!
:)At least she had a house to mortgage.
That is all.
As for that quote, I’m sorry. Socialism is not communism. Communism is socialism but as a socialist I don’t believe believe in extremes and black or white.
But if that’s the opponent... then there’s indeed is not a possible discussion. Even not an agreement to disagree.
As for taxes... yes, that’s how market operate. And that is totally fine. It’s the vicious circle which oils the machine. Take the taxes away and we only get closed “my corner” spots. At which point... sorry for your belief but the earth is killing itself, well mostly it’s population, and that comes mostly from people who discount the option to work together that system.
Feel free to bash socialism, here’s hoping you will have enough to pay for a spot on whichever planet because the capitalist only method will not save us. Nor will it lead to a livable plant.
And, yes... calling it the “dole” is helpful in removing the stigma and turning it into empowering. That’s why UBI aims to be universal. No matter how much one has. So the stigma is removed for those who suffer it.
Enjoy your time left here. :)
Actually, I intend to enjoy my time left here. I actually am John Gault. There is nothing I can not build, with my own hands. I have a functioning generator that runs on magnetic fuel to power the homestead I am building.
When the Socialist spending here stops the economy, and the entire World falls into the socialist abyss. I will be comfortable, herbally medicated, and well fed, by my own hand.
Those too lazy to work, or too incompetent, that rely on the government, will be in real trouble.
Our difference is primarily that I feel those who work, should benefit from that work. Those who can work, but refuse, should get very hungry, to give them something to think about. Those who can not work should be taken care of.
Taking from one person that works, to give to another that refuses to work, is not taxes, it is theft.
Taxes are for schools, roads, police, and to care for the indigent.
I am not bashing Socialism, I am an Engineer, and I am saying that the numbers do not add up. Any system, that has more going out than coming in, is bankrupt. The Numbers show disaster, it just takes longer for a larger system to fail!
Show me any Socialists country that is a century old, and making a profit. One that is innovating and pushing Word class technology, and I will become interested.
Because a country that is a leader, and a century old, is never Socialists based.
The most successful Socialists country was Germany in the 1930s...at least they were World class innovators!
:)Yes, regarding the question of advanced technology taking everyone's jobs, I didn't mention this in my blog as I wanted to keep it short.
Whether or not this future comes is open to debate. But it is certain that we do not live in that world today, there is still a great need for human labour currently. Yet I hear some suggestions that UBI should be implemented soon, in the next few years. We are still far from a world where machines look after our every need.
It is worth noting that previous tech advances have created more jobs than they destroy, higher level jobs that are more satisfying to people are created, lower level drudgery is taken over by machines. There has been many panics in the past about mass joblessness that would arise from technology, but it has never happened. This time may be different, or it may not be, but we should acknowledge previous concerns have always been false alarms so far.
Also, we must have an understanding of basic economics here. Taxing the machines makes no sense, as in practice it would amount to another sales tax. The companies owning the machines would have to pass on their increased costs for paying the tax to their customers, ultimately that is me and you.
For example, if a self driving taxi were taxed to pay for UBI, the cost of that tax bill would be passed on to the customers of the taxi. The ultra cheap transportation we could all enjoy would be denied. We would have expensive taxis fares, in order that we can raise the money to pay for free money for all. Again, I point to the circularity of this, why make the world more expensive to fund UBI?
Great answer.
This is how the cycle works (and should work). The main thing here is that disposable income can be available. Without that the companies have nobody to sell to - or only a very small group which will gradually erode due to the exponential curve it creates.
Remember that when cities create incentives to house factories, it’s all about the jobs created. Because income/wages are needed for everything else to thrive. That is the reason why taxing the machine units is being raised... not as a communist folly, no, but as an integral part of the cycle of markets.
Now, despite my defense here, don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe UBI is the solution. Not if as the de facto outcome as knee jerk. A program like UBI only works is the understanding of the program is high. Yes, there will always be bottom feeders who don’t do anything, but from the other end humans are humans and the greed gene is a real one thus the capitalist cycle will only be kickstarted again. Not having to worry about monthly dues will liberate mindsets and actually stimulate (few holistic studies have all shown that a majority of participants actually get their ass off the ground).
Yet...
Economics basic math disagrees about your self-driving cab argument. Key is to tax in the sense that the math doesn’t become more expensive for the company, if the automation is taxed higher... it won’t happen and no low-level jobs will be lost. As such there will not be an increase in cost for the customer.
And thus... the world wouldn’t be more expensive. That’s the circularoity of it. Companies won’t revolutionize if it costs them more. That’s not how their fiduciary duties work either. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
So before I say anything I'm a (UK) Conservative voter. This is a classic Socialist idea that the so-called wealthy have so much money that they or their family (Inheritance) has accumulated either through hard graft or pure ability that they can easily afford to just give away that money to people who don't have any. Certainly, in the UK, the Labour party would Nationalise pretty much every company if it had the chance and make them a 'Workers Commune'. So what that in reality means is taking someone's company they spent years building up and giving it for free to a bunch of people who will spend the next ten years bleeding it dry because the attitude will be "Well the public own it!"
Going off on a tangent for the minute: I find it funny that bosses who bleed their own companies dry end up going to court are vilified as capitalist scum by Socialists and yet when Nationalised companies go bust because the workers, in effect, bleed the place dry that's OK.
You'll never get a Socialist to accept that you yourself have to work at earning money, improving your situation, getting a better home and advancing your education. The whole basis of Socialism hinges on the State paying for everything by taking money from people. One of my favourite quotes from former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher pretty much sums up how I feel.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money to spend." -- Margaret Thatcher
I wouldn't worry about Labour claims they want to renationalise. If they stay in the EU, which appears to be their plan, they won't be able to renationalise. Personally I don't think there's any value at all in Party politics, or indeed politics. It seems to me to be nothing other than a method of divide and conquer aimed at distracting us from the reality that the problem is government, not political dogma. The Right / Left paradigm keeps us all engaged in their system. They being the global financial elite. They don't care which way you 'vote' because they control all pieces on the board. This is evident when we look at the control the corporate lobby industry exerts over all political parties. Including the Tories.
I hope I can go some way to towards answering your question. I take your point about the illogical basis for UBI. You're right to question where the money can possibly come from. However, I think UBI is part of the future being planned for us all. The commodity of the future will be data and carbon. Instead of being taxed, in the traditional sense, we will be farmed.
The data we create will have value and will be traded. Therefore each of us will generate income for those involved in that trade. The role out of the 'internet of things' will create huge volumes of 'energy usage' data for each and every one of us and, through creating a carbon trading market, that energy usage can both be rationed and moneytised. The profits made from the control of energy and resources will provide sufficient income streams for global corporations for them to fund a subsistence income for the masses and facilitate their control of everything we need to exist, such as housing, food and water. This concept is laid out fairly clearly in the U.N's Agenda 2030 document. Essentially its government by global technocracy.
The thing to get your head around here is that the sale of goods won't necessarily be part of the new technocracy. The necessities of life will be controlled and provided, rather than earned. Earning will cease to have meaning. Indeed aspiration, in terms of commercial activity, will be destroyed and replaced with centrally controlled supply for those who obey the rules. Loyalty to the technocracy will be rewarded. Independent entrepreneurship will become obsolete.
We are all anticipating the loss of at least 47% of all jobs in the next decade. As mechanisation destroyed many manufacturing jobs so A.I will irradicate service and white collar jobs. Therefore we are having a technocratic control grid created to ensure our existence generates income for the globalist corporate elite.
As for dickturpin's comment about Nationalisation by the so called Labour Party I wouldn't worry about that too much. It seems to me that they fully intend for us to remain in the EU (mind you, so do the Tories) so there won't be any possible nationalisation when we do. EU regulations forbid it.
Here is an interesting vido if you are interested in what I'm talking about.
Great post. Upvoted and resteemed.
Universal Basic Income is a Fool's tool; that is impossible to pay for!
― Margaret Thatcher
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