People assume Japanese is a horribly difficult language to learn and if their goal is to get really deep into the culture, read novels and speak like a native, there's no two ways about it....
...But to become conversational in daily life isn't that hard, and most people don't have any goals to become scholars, just to communicate with the people around them.
I was able to become conversational in about 3 years, and if I knew back then what I know now about effective study methods, I imagine I could have learned in about half the time.
Why is becoming a well-rounded, fluent, near native speaker so difficult though?
I've come up with 2 reasons that people overlook.
Yes, the characters are challenging at first, but after you get a hang of them they aren't that bad, and yes there are different ways to express things depending on the politeness level, and many many variations on everything, but I think there are two other reasons that Japanese is extremely hard to go deep with.
The first is that Japan, while having many different cultural practices throughout the country, and different dialects, has a standard dialect which almost everyone understands. The school system is extremely standardized, so everyone gets a very similar education. There is variety, but it's far less diverse than much of the world.
I find that in places with more languages and a wider variety of cultures, or more varied education systems the language tends to be simplified. In places with fewer languages and a more standard education system, the language goes a whole lot deeper.
That's why American English versions of novels tend to be simpler, because the nation began as a country of immigrants. That's why people from Beijing are so much harder to understand (for a non-native) in standard Mandarin than people from other parts of China. Their local dialect is the country standard so their communication is only in one language instead of mixed between different dialects.
The second is that Asian culture in general is VERY VERY detail oriented, and so people tend to make very small distinctions between two different things. This can be the distinction of the nuance between two words, or the difference between two kinds of noodles. The education puts a lot of emphasis on facts and distinctions.
Example: In the suburbs of New York, we learned a few birds or flower names in school, but in Japan, most people learn to distinguish all kinds of birds and fish and trees and flowers. They learn the important exports and imports of different countries and even different prefectures.
In my high school we learned a lot more about social issues and world history than American history and local distinctive culture, partly because the history is shorter but also because we don't place the same importance on these things, at least our school system didn't.
In Japan, with thousands of years of history, including local areas which used to be far more culturally diverse than they are now, all taught in school, things get DEEP.
I've recently gone to a few traditional and modern-style traditional festivals. To my foreign eyes when I arrived in Japan, all matsuri (festivals) looked and felt the same. Traditional wear and dancing, unhealthy but delicious street food served by friendly guys who kind of look like gangsters.
The longer I'm here, the more I'm floored by just how much variety there is in festivals and how much most people know. The average person never feels they know as much as they should, but they still know a lot.
Awaodori comes from Kagawa and they have a distinct beat, it started as a courting dance and the women and men had their own dancing styles, but there are modern and traditional versions of it. Bon odori is one of the most popular kinds of festivals but even one city can have multiple versions of the festivals. I went to two this year, one Kawachi-ondo which is from a small area of Osaka, despite being on the other side of the country, their style of bon odori spread to Tokyo. The other was a modern version unique to my local area, it has yet to spread outside but it may very well one day.
People think Japan preserves it's culture well...I don't know how I feel about this. In some sense, yes, because people feel a sense of responsibility and joy about their culture, but a lot of it is out of obligation and doesn't have any heart in it and a lot of it is extremely commercialized. It's just detail oriented and so these cultural distinctions remain preserved in some form, but often the deeper meanings are lost.
Japanese people often pray at Shinto Shrines or Buddhist temples, but you find that most people are either athiest or agnostic. It's just something they learn to do, and the education emphasizes the tiny distinctions. So each shrine has it's own god that specializes in one thing like "better grades" "good weather" or "pregnancy". People don't actually believe in the gods, but they feel they should know the different purpose behind different shrines and practices.
Food culture is no different. Mochi (rice cake) is a popular kind of food, often found in sweets here, but I can't even imagine how many different kinds of mochi there are and many are made slightly differently and have slightly different flavors. To a foreigner it's all varieties of the same thing, but to local people the distinction is very important.
Every part of Japan has it's own kind of ramen and other local dishes. People feel the need to try the authentic version of the ramen so they travel across the country just to eat a bowl of noodles. Meanwhile, the shop probably has already expanded across the country and uses the same recipe everywhere. The difference between their recipe is surely distinct, but it's not often THAT different from the same dish in another shop or another part of the country.
It's kind of silly to me at times, but there is also something beautiful about making such small distinctions and caring about the small details.
This makes the language INCREDIBLY difficult though because you can't go long before getting into a conversation about something cultural that has a very distinct name and no translation in another language.
Today I was at a cafe that is into traditional things and folk art, and I got into a conversation about "muscle monks from the Edo period" There were travelling monks who did a lot of mountain climbing and were buff as hell. There was a name I learned for them but I forgot them. These are distinguished from monks in another era with different practices.
We also talked about a certain tea brand which is inspired from tea from somewhere or other and has a different brewing method.
Many people know geisha, but most don't know oiran or all the different names used to refer to different versions of a similar concept, but when you speak Japanese, these things come up in conversations about history or tourism.
The details and distinguished features can go on forever. In the west, there are people who are detail oriented and go deep into something, I knew many hipsters DJ's who did it with music, but I never met anyone who goes into the details as much as so many Japanese people do. Not even close.
So yeah, if you want to have the same conversations over and over again about where you are from and what you do, you don't need that much Japanese, but if you want to join an event or get into the deeper culture at all, it's inevitable that you'll have to learn a ton of words that don't exist in your native language, and the context around it will also be difficult, with different eras and previous names of current cities, ingredients of food that you can only find in Japan or different names for the same dish prepared with different cooking styles.
No, none of this is necessary to get by here, but as someone who wants to form a deeper connection with communities here, many of which revolve around some kind of tradition or local practice, I want to learn enough Japanese to understand their explanations, however detailed they may be.
It's both silly and beautiful, and for that reason, I can recommend Japanese to anyone who wants to spend a lifetime delving into a completely different way from thinking from almost everywhere else in the world.
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I don’t think it’s that hard but it might be coming from a somewhat adjacent culture and already being vaguely familiar with grammar rules. Having said that I’m not even conversational as I’m entirely too casual with learning 🤣 and the characters were initially challenging. Then there was that fun period of time where I was trying to learn to write some of the kanji and as it’s been aeons since I learned to write I had to wonder how I ever learned to write anything (in English!) to begin with 🤣
Hmm maybe I should talk to you about my project sometime and see how I compare on the scale of detail, i keep getting told I think too much 😆
That does sound like you’re just skimming across some insane detail orientation though 😳 I am simultaneously astonished and not surprised in the slightest 😆
I think it’s not hard cause you are a genius 😛 and because you haven’t tried to read Yukio Mishima in Japanese or write a novel.
What kind of details are you playing with? I feel like a lot of people I get along with are interested in details, but there is a certain kind of rigidity about it here. My student was complaining about her coworker being late for 2 minutes. She doesn’t mind if I’m late because I am a FOREIGNER!
I didn’t even really get into it! If I did I would never finish, I bet that’s why some people don’t even start blogging 😛
I'm nowhere near the same universe as a genius XD
And no I haven't tried to do anything other than...read really. I know some Japanese speakers though and I've been able to understand a bit more when I hear them talking (not eavesdropping honest, they just sit close by to me when they're talking XD).
Details like well the first and classic example was at some point in the story I'm working through now, some characters were doing something which I knew was a cultural thing but I wanted to know why it was a cultural thing.
I ended up travelling back 1000 odd years into that past figuring out why and when the martial art those characters did was developed which answered my question of why they were doing what they were doing and in that process I found a lot more character stories and developed a deeper understanding of the entire world/universe they're in (even though the chances of any of my stories coming out are slim to none never mind all this background stuff that I keep diving into because it's interesting.
Along a similar vein it's not enough that it's known that a character has this specific personality type/trait, I end up delving into their childhood to find out why (seems like while a number of characters seem to have reasons for being the way they are, one of them is actually just an arsehole XD).
Some things are like that though ^_^; If you mean some people don't start blogging because they start the post and never finish it yep that's me too, totally get that x_x
Every country has its own culture like Pakistan's, India's and other countries and the way you described it is very difficult but people living there don't find it difficult. They will love him a lot.
Of course, it’s speaking about learning the language and culture as a foreigner. But yo be honest I think local culture can give local people stress too. That’s why some people prefer to integrate into another culture or start counter-culture
May be you are right.
This is an excellent post into the variety of Japan and it's intricacies. I was just in Kobe for our gem and mineral show and an old guy came up to me at the show. He was going in depth about minerals using Kansai-ben. I couldn't understand a fucking word he was saying lol. Even normal Japanese would have been difficult because the mineral world uses a lot of words I am not familiar with yet. Same thing happens when I go North to my wife's hometown in Akita, Akita-ben = ???. I know "nndat' which means soudesu ne? but that's about it.
As for the food and culture of each little town, it's impressive how each place took something and tweeked it for their own. My wife's hometown is known for kiritanpo and yama yasai. Neither of which I am fond of, but it shows the creativity of the people. It's a fascinating, difficult country that always keeps me on my toes or several glasses of beer into my woes.
I watched a video on how a lot of this diversity and what foreigners perceive as weirdness multiplied and spread as a result of the bubble era campaign where the national government threw money at local governments to get them to try and attract tourists or residents in any way they saw fit. That’s why the hometown of many fiction writers end up cashing in on their work. Shibamata for “Otoko ha tsurai” or I know there is a ton with tons of Ultraman statues and another that cashes in on Doraemon etc. but I imagine a lot of local governments tried to push local food in the same way to increase the profits to their local regions.
I think if it was done and done this obviously in America, we’d probably scoff at it as being too opportunistic and not particularly interesting
…but then there is obviously the fact that most Americans aren’t nearly as detail oriented and don’t care about describing the subtle differences of two restaurants as much as they just choose a favorite and leave it at that.
I am sure there are a few crystal people like that everywhere but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Japanese guy went an extra layer into it. Like maybe a non Japanese would know which region something comes from while a Japanese expert would know the exact city or exact mine
Man. I would love to see some of your gem world. Theres a gem store in town closing soon. Half off. You should come visit
For example now, Nigeria has over 250tribes and it is even making things difficult
This is why we mostly speak English
Right! I really love these kinds of diverse places! That’s the one thing I miss being in japan
I can say that every language is unique in its own identity. Learning any language as second language isn't that easy as it requires a conscious effort from the learner. It can be tasking to do so. However, the best way to learn any language in my opinion is to listen to the native speaker of the language and also to read story written with it.
Like you said English has grown or become worldly accepted language as its encompasses many other languages.
It’s not hard if you are having fun with it 😆
i agreed with you on this.
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I love LOVE this about Japan. They can take something and OCD the heck out of it. For example, I have a plastic container from Muji that has a lid that doubles as a measuring cup. BRILLIANT! This container is likely to have sugar, rice, beans, etc., so it makes absolute sense to have a measuring cup readily available.
I like how you mention that to the untrained eye, Japanese festivals look the same, when in reality they're anything but. Great article!
Wow! You are really into analysis of cultures and comprehension of different cultures. I find Japanese culture full of contradictions with many strange aspects for me to understand. You must be interested in archeology too.