The Stupidity of Hivewatchers
I agree with the mission of Hivewatchers
First of all, I'd like make it 100% clear, that I generally agree with motives of Hivewatchers. Meaning, that Spam, Plagiarism, Scams and Fraud should be flagged and punished, and should not be allowed to exist on the Hive platform. I very strongly discourage and punish these things in my city, and will flag them with my own Hive power if I become aware of them. I do not like these things, and will fight them powerfully whenever I can. So I share this sentiment with Hivewatchers, we have the same philosophy in this regard.
However, they are driving good people from Hive and making mistakes
Many that Hivewatchers goes after do deserve it, but not all. This isn't something I just decided yesterday, but my observations over years. They have punished and discouraged many good people. That kind of people we want to have in Hive. The ecosystem isn't that big, so losing even a few good people can be quite harmful.
The Case of Bee, or anikys3reasure
@anikys3reasure or Bee, as she is known in my discord, is a good person. She has shown her face and is very open, and there is nothing sneaky or scammy about her.
I can personally vouch for her good character. She loaned money from me, while she was in Ukraine, and yep, as you can guess, she had to flee Ukraine because, yea, there is a War there. Any normal person would have used this as an excuse not to pay off the loan, but nope, in spite of this terrible hardship, she still paid off her loan on time like a total Boss.
Bee is the sort of person we need in the Hive ecosystem
Hivewatchers maliciously attacked her
Bee works for the blockchain called Skale. You can find her picture here
https://skale.space/blog/meet-the-skale-protocol-ambassadors
Just look for anikys3reasure. Clearly she is part of the Skale organization.
Hivewatchers flagged and banned her for posting translations of Skale posts. Bee went through some lengths to prove her innocence and that she really is a part of Skale and as an ambassodor, clearly she would have permission to repost Skale posts and spread the good word. She even invited the Skale marketing manager into the Hivewatchers discord to speak in her behalf, but they would hear none of it.
She is still banned to this day (a year later). So Hivewatchers takes the position that a member of Skale cannot post translations of Skale posts on Hive. Insane.
Bee isn't the only one, I've seen Hivewatchers attack a number of good people, who perhaps made a small mistake, or in some cases none at all. I don't have time or energy to go over them all in this post.
Hivewatchers futile and mostly useless war against AI
And now Hivewatchers has to jump on band wagon and wield their barbaric monkey club at AI users. Look, I get it, in the surface, if you are emotional and not a very deep thinker, yes I agree that if I know that someone is using ChatGTP to write their posts for them, this is bad, and I would probably avoid upvoting this, possibly might flag it (or not).
It is a losing battle
I'm making the prediction right now. Fighting the use of AI is 100% going to be a losing battle. You will absolutely lose, 100%.
"Hey AI, please read my last 20 posts and replicate my writing style."
"Hey AI, please sprinkle the writing with a few human mistakes."
OOPS! Checkmate. What are you going to do? Fucking nothing, that's what. Ho ho ho! I am certain this sort of capability will be easily available inside of 5 years. (If it isn't already).
My opinion on it doesn't even matter. The sky is blue, whether I like it or not. The sky doesn't care about my feelings, and AI definitely won't care about Hivewatchers feelings.
So, Hivewatchers, enjoy your witch hunt few years until it's all over. All you will accomplish is temporarily scaring people away from a new technology, and looking like a stupid asshole. Congrats!
I've withdrawn all support for Hivewatchers.
I have unvoted the witnesses of @guiltyparties and @abit. Also unvoted their proposal https://peakd.com/hive/@hivewatchers/the-hivewatchers-and-spaminator-operational-proposal-for-the-period-2022-2024
I don't have any solutions, but I know this dumbness isn't what we need in Hive.
(badly photoshopped image based on a picture by HalHefnerART on DeviantArt)
Posted using Neoxian City
As a University professor, I’m dealing with students using ChatGPT to cheat on their essays on a weekly basis.
I wrote a post a couple months ago coming to the same conclusion as you — this is not a tool we can fight. We have a tiny edge right now because those using it are novices and don’t know how to cover their tracks. But the cover-your-tracks tools will soon appear.
As professors, we need to change our practices, which is something I am actively pursuing.
On Hive, we probably need to move to an engagement and genuine-reputation based system. Come and prove you’re a real person with real thoughts about real topics, and get rewarded in the process.
And that doesn’t happen by posting original content as much as it happens by interacting with real people, having real conversations.
In fact, that’s the essence of the Turing test. AI can’t pass the Turing test until it can fool most people during an ongoing dialogue.
I like the way @theycallmedan has been framing upvotes on CTT lately. Every upvote is a vote to help decentralize governance. Focus on upvoting those who can be a net positive force toward maintaining account level censorship resistance.
Hey Steve, you must check out this article:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-professor-asked-his-students-to-use-chatgpt-the-results-were-surprising/
I found it quite interesting. A professor from the University of Pennsylvania deliberately asked his students to use Chat GPT to complete their homework.
Thanks for sharing!
Yes, I considered doing something like that. And I still might for future semesters.
We are still in very uncharted waters.
The adjustment to educational practices is kinda what should be happening anyway, it's just kind of hard and labour intensive to do so: Show your working.
A timeless curse of mathematics classes, something which would reliably filter out the fakes even in our art classes and, if it was possible yet, in my own music classes. The journey is, after all, much more valuable than the outcome @tarazkp ;)
It may be the case that ultimately, students will have to have office time with professors to demonstrate their human capabilities when compared with their submissions. I can imagine this being rather torturous if you have like 1,000 students, but there will be ways to implement it, i'm sure.
To me, simply handing in an essay or dissertation in Uni was never enough to begin with
I remember one of my sons struggling with geometry proofs because he was so used to doing extensive math calculations in his head. He just couldn’t slow down enough to write down every step.
He once failed a multiple choice chemistry test where he got 96% of the answers correct but did not heed the instructions to “show your work.”
That requirement can be brutal for kids like him.
Even so, simply learning to follow directions is an important life skill.
It is hard to fake when you have to show every step.
Reminds me of the movie "The man who knew infinity".
I haven't seen that one. I'll put it on my watchlist.
It's about this mathematician: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan
was worth the watch!
Yep. I get there's some necessary differentiation needed to be put in place, for example I teach choir, and the school, for fuck knows what reason, assigned a totally non-verbal student into it lol. So... yeah, have to improvise. I just don't think it'll be that much of a hurdle to overcome at least in the majority of courses, assuming an establishment is properly run with the future in mind.
Maybe that's wishful thinking though...
You probably are aware of the tool the chatgpt relesed for checks but just in case
https://platform.openai.com/ai-text-classifier
The issue with the majority of these tools is that it is a blackbox. You cannot tell what it measures to determine if a text is ai written.
Yes. Thanks for pointing that out.
OpenAI’s classifier tool is pretty much worthless, though.
It only flags its own output 25% of the time. And it only takes slight modifications of its own output to fool the classifier even when it otherwise would catch it.
And, it’s easy for students to just keep making small changes then running it through the classifier until it’s “safe” to submit.
I'm also a college professor. I think the answer will be oral exams in the future. Students can't take the knowledge they have. Chatgtp can only get you so far
Of course Oral exams immediately comes to mind as a solution. However, it is necessary to acknowledge that writing is a different process, and engages different parts of the brain. I am almost an incompetent speaker, yet I feel far more competent writing.
I suggest including extemporaneous essay questions as part of your assessment of your students. After all, despite the advent of AI, writing will remain an essential human skill going forward.
Edit: until Neuralink is common.
exactly... but the saddest thing is that as time pass, AI will always be smarter and humans that use them at a regular basis will always be more retarded.
Look at the damage done by calculators... go on the street and find a teenager that is able to do mental calculus... you will be lucky if you find some. Instead go on street and make the same math question to an old man/women, 99.99% he/she is able to reply to you.
That's a sad reality.
I've taken calculus. I'm not sure many ever could do it in their head. However, I do know that the fastest I ever got at calculating in my head was when I was actively buying and selling real estate. I could do a price per square foot calculation very quickly on the fly. The more you use it, the better you are. If you never write your own papers or study, pop quizzes and oral exams will work you over something fierce
A teenager that is able to do mental calculus? Ha, many of them are even unable to tell the hour on a clock with hands! LoL
ahah indeed one time i taught to read the clock to a 14 years old guy. I'm not joking
There are better tools, theirs is one of the worst (for now, I'm sure they will improve it).
When more PFP NFT Projects? :)
Let's do some https://opensea.io/collection/owls-wtf Hive Owls?
You've got some art?
/._./
=( o _ o )=
( ,, ,, )
Let me pick up some tool and create a little bit. It's been some time since I actually used my 70$ a month Adobe Tools, but they keep cashing in - that's for sure.
I can start to create the ART. Maybe mint them on DLux you suggest?
Care to point out to some of them :)
Send me a Discord DM and I'll send you a list of tools. trostparadox#8559
special if ai can rework the content to let it less look like. It will be in some months impossible to tell if content is AI made or not.
Some use cases are just too delicious, until the end of last year, people wasted their lives creating unique thumbnails for videos and posts. Now AI just took that over and people can focus on the actual work. Does that make a video or post better or worse, nope. Does it make the content more visible? Yup!
It's not even a fight, it's an evolution in many cases.
This is one of the tools that were are using to detect AI texts in articles on Hive.
And many here have already agreed that it is useless and worthless.
You make it sound like Hivewatchers are actually multiple persons. It's not. The operation is mostly run by @logic. It's a one-man shop.
@Guiltyparties is your peripheral "head" in charge of an operation he has no business or time to attend to. After all, he spends more time dealing with other projects on Hive.
The third and mysterious @nuttin is just someone collecting all the payments and interests off of HBD. Who knows if that's an actual active member in the community or some red herring used to pay Logic some more.
I bet if anyone ran a cost-benefit analysis, the so-called "abuse" they curb is much less than the money the community is paying. Unfortunately, large stakeholders such as @blocktrades, @theycallmedan, and @smooth don't think there are any viable alternatives. I argue HW isn't needed at all.
That sort of organization doesn't scale. It's much better to develop tools and allow individual communities and their mods/curators to collaborate and figure out ways to mitigate things within their own boundaries and in their own terms. It's insanity to expect Hivewatchers to be judge, jury, and executioner for every community across the chain.
The accounts Hivewatchers now operate can and will eventually be decommissioned and used by Logic as personal accounts, as seen by the activities of @steemcleaners, courtesy of GuiltyParties, which he uses against opinions differ from his narrow world view. In fact, it's not unusual @adm is abused in such manner as well.
If you feel so bad for Logic, just donate money to him. Stop this charade of giving him undeserved authority to dictate what others can do on this chain.
I have voiced my discontent about them in the past only to be booted out of the chat channels by GuiltyConscious himself. He even tried to brand me as some anti-Hive element, but couldn't muster the so-called "evidence".
To echo @pfunk's sentiments about HW, it's time to consider firing them.
Everyone should unvote @abit and @guiltyparties as witnesses as well as the Hivewatchers proposal.
The keys to @adm needs to be changed to make sure HW operators no longer possess them. They don't deserve to operate like this on the community's dimes.
I would agree with this if communities were providing their own reward funds, but since the reward funds all come from the commons of Hive stakeholders, Hive stakeholders have an unavoidable interest in how rewards are paid or not paid.
I'd be all for revamping how rewards work. For example, reallocate all of the common funds to DHF, and individual communities can then make proposals for their own reward funds, which they manage as they see fit. I don't think the one common pool has ever worked very well.
(The above was not meant as a specific proposal, which would require much greater attention and detail, it was a quick idea off the top of my head how the common reward pool which has not added much value and has always been very contentious could be restructured. There are probably better ways.)
We have had small curator-friendly tools developed at little to no cost.
The point is to enable the assigned curators to do what the curation initiatives or delegators expected them to do.
As for more sophisticated tools, I'm sure the stakeholders can fund the development of better algorithms through the DHF to detect certain abuses. There could be multiple people who hang out in the Hive Discord or whatever to scrutinize the feeds, etc. in the open.
The current system is broken. It's like letting the Demiurge pretend he's the Creator God of the universe.
As for rewards, yes, I do agree that some revamp needs to happen. This common pool is cursed.
That's a great idea, but will it increase decentralization and what are the attack vectors?
Host server, I suppose. The bot's database is separate for each server it serves in.
I see, that seems to be rather a feature.
Is this relate to above post?
You speak the true true.
Not even sure firing is the right term, more of a shift of responsibility towards tending to a well trained algo rather than being the deciding factor.
But yeah, preach the good word captain!
You are much nicer than me.
Understanding, not nice.
I'm an asshole, but also look at things objectively. :P
I'm looking at this after having burned down massive amounts of hours of infighting surrounding this topic. But I've been buying deeper into the Neoxian Tribe for months by now and it seems I was on to something.
These fights started to follow me into my dreams, and that's why I lay low a little bit right now.
Shoutout to you klye, hope you're doing well! cheers
EXACTLY! Each community has the ability to mute/ban users who are misbehaving in their community.
Leonis, downvoted to disagree with rewards. I am sure you are cool with it.
Nuttin is an individual, who is not logic and not you and not me. I am sure you understand people can prefer to stay anonymous. Including you. If you know who freedom is please do let me know.
HW is supported by a DHF. If you or anyone do not like they don't have to vote for it. I don't think you vote for it. So that's that. It's a public process and stakeholders voted for it, including me. I find value in their services. I exercise my choice as a stakeholder. You do the same.
Regarding an alternative sure it's possible. Being better at customer service is possible. If you feel you personally can do a better job at cheaper cost, please write a proposal and stakeholders will evaluate it.
Otherwise I don't think there is anything more to discuss
Nuttin is only an individual by claim. You could be paying the same person twice. Lol
If you aren’t here to discuss, leave the conversation.
You aren’t here to hold people accountable and improve. You are just here to make sure things stay the same.
No. If you can trust me. I know the individual personally.
Please let me know if you are satisfied
With an account number of 499 you can bet it was one of the earliest adopters.
I'm still waiting for a couple of them to pop out of the exchanges, 'Surprise! I have 30% of the coins! I've been hiding that in exchanges and sock puppets.'
Until we cross the hump of the earliest adopters selling, anybody buying in is simply providing exit liquidity to somebody that isn't selling his principle, only the gains.
IF they left the pool to the daily users it would be different, but as long as they maintain their death grip on power, we are pissing into the wind, imo.
Doesn't change the facts of the tech, just makes it that much harder to come into our own where the actual community controls things rather than this shadow gov't we don't get to know who it is.
Just to be clear with one thing: I will and never have used any account that has 'steem' as part of it's name. I don't even write or say that word if I don't absolutely have to, such as now. That will never happen.
HW: It would be a great help if people could offer constructive feedback to HW on scope, particularly new scope, and not only when they either got caught for something or someone they like got caught for something.
You gifted it to Logic to abuse. End of story.
I've been writing the same things since you guys tried to renew your sham proposal.
You don't care at all. You are just here for damage control until you can go back to the status quo.
Hivewatchers can do whatever it wants, but if it's getting funds from the DHF then there needs to be some accountability in the way it runs. A proper "charter" and transparent processes would go a long way to avoiding conflict and misunderstandings. As you know, I've seen a few and they are nearly always ugly. We simply HAVE to get better at this.
My view is that HW has a role, but is currently over-reaching and is not geared up to scale at all. We need to come up with a framework for how HW is going to interact with communities and educate users rather than just default to using the ban-hammer and it's guilty-until-proven-innocent. HW is currently operating like a bit of a kangaroo court so it's no wonder there is growing backlash.
I think instead of people complaining, maybe some others could be hired or offer their precious time to help attend to the growing needs of rooting out the rotten pasta. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, despite some wearing really convincing masks. Of course, I see a lot of the bigger stakeholders that don't actually care about that and want their profits maintained (obvious by a few comments). So, doubt that will actually happen.
Moar voices, better consensus.
I believe it is important to remember that HW has the power to do this because they have the money to do this. The powers that they have are not democratic or given by a god due to their benevolence. They are people just like us, and they only are able to do what they do because of the financial stake they have in Hive.
We did not choose them to be our watchers.
As an Asian I do a lot of grammar mistakes, so I used Grammarly & later started using ChatGPT to correct my grammar mistakes & bring a professional look to the writing. But that doesn't mean I created the posts by using that tool. This will be the next generation of the technology. It's like fighting against crypto, better we adopt & build a clear mechanism to avoid abuses of these techs.
I am not gonna talk about Hivewatchers. They do a good job against spams & etc. But they do mistakes & it's costly.
Here I am asking OpenAI to make this comment so professional & will paste it below.
please correct errors & make it professional
$WINE
Cheers~
I will but note that the more you depend on tools to do what you could learn to do, you will not learn to do it.
Congratulations, @theguruasia You Successfully Shared 0.100 WINEX With @neoxian.
You Earned 0.100 WINEX As Curation Reward.
You Utilized 1/4 Successful Calls.
Contact Us : WINEX Token Discord Channel
WINEX Current Market Price : 0.163
Swap Your Hive <=> Swap.Hive With Industry Lowest Fee (0.1%) : Click This Link
Read Latest Updates Or Contact Us
Thank you so much Mr Dragon for the vouch. I am actually tired of arguing, this is at a time when I just want to buy and power up Hive. Hivewatcher might think I made so much from posting but many of us are splinsterlands players. I have over-explained myself but I will leave power to the powerful. Some of us are around here for the LOVE of HIVE. Hive prepared many of us for the journey of crypto space and it's not always about the money.
If Hive powerful people want to chase us, then we are the weak, there's nothing we can do. I appreciate this Mr Dragon. A lot.
Hello.
We are still awaiting a response from Nicole Lam to our email about permission to monetise hundreds of their articles on Hive.
You reply like a BOT, I know you didn't read what I wrote, you hate me for defending myself. LOL
Nicole Lam is no longer with SKALE. Get another name bro.
We responded to Nicole Lam's email right away and received no response. It was when she was still the ambassador's manager.
We have now contacted SKALE again with a new inquiry.
Let me know to who you sent the new email? I do not have a problem telling them to respond.
you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.
Hive Justice. 😀
I have proven my innocence with so many evidences... Accepting that they were wrong is the issue here.
I think it is best to acknowledge how this really works. They will deprive you of money unless you have more money than them. If you have the money you can do whatever you want, as they do.
It is telling that their proposal is supported by the biggest accounts on Hive.
It is also some of those biggest accounts that love to nuke Hivers with dissenting views. Let that censorship sink in...
There will be no mass-adoption, Hive will stay a niche, dominated by the rich. And neither those rich nor Hivewatchers listen to reason. As some of you might have experienced, they keep on delivering the same old lines over and over again, and keep their stubborn politics. Basically they demand you bend over backwards to kiss their arses. Medieval.
(sorry for the rant, it is really frustrating to see Hive being directed into this dead end road)
Big fish in a little pond need to keep the pond too small to attract alligators. All this hand wringing about AI is closing the barn door after the cattle are roaming. Botfarms have long been milking the rewards pool for oligarchs that can't abide competition.
I think that they do far more harm than good and have driven away numerous real users in their quest to regulate a decentralized blockchain.
I agree with fighting spam and abuse but this is not the way to do it. I have even tried to step in on behalf of real users previously that i could vouch for and know to be on the up and up. It was so hard to get any response never mind deal with them.
I didn't vote for hive police and wish they had no part of our chain. We do need methods to protect the reward pool but putting that power on the hands of a couple of unreasonable and biased individuals is madness.
How are we supposed to grow the userbase when they are driving users away.
AI isn't going anywhere and trying to kill it from the chain is pissing into the wind. It's just going to keep blowing back onto you regardless.
It's better to use our voting power wisely as a community. Distribute the stake as well as we can to users that are doing things the right way and disband this fake police. Looking at some of the main stakeholders i'm amazed to see who is supporting the proposal that is paying them to do this.
I've had my own fights with HW lately and I promised Azircon to chill and don't overheat over it. So I will just do that. It's a bad thing if infighting distracts us from moving forward, obviously, moderation to some degree is required while the task and suitable toolkits should be kept as close and tight to the communities themselves as possible.
The Ethos in the Neoxian corner of the world is very different and that is one of the reasons why I'm buying deeper into it, while other communities are obviously struggling more with themselves.
To all the Hivers and HW out there, I want to say:
If you read this comment, I hope you as a person feel that I care about your freedom and that others do as well. The future can be a big WE BEE TOGETHER on Hive.
bowing to azircon, our leader, our truth, the one and only. amen
Azircon is well-meaning and cool-headed, I'm not crazy enough to disregard that. A good mentor should never be underestimated.
A powerful mentor that is....
HW has outlived its usefulness. We are far enough along that it should be replaced with algos. Hive does not need its own Yoel Roth.
I've been saying this type of thing for a while.. Nothing personal against the guys that try and police the chain but something like anyx's cheetah or a decent trained machine learning algo to do the work done now manually is 100% the way to go.
There is too much bias and "feeling" involved with some of the policing going on HIVE today. Humans should be almost entirely taken out of the situation other than to rule on if the algorythm messed up and flagged something improperly, not used as the determining factor right off the hop.
Good post. When I get the chance (lord knows when) if this type of tech hasn't yet been built and deployed by someone, will certainly start looking into making it feasible.
I, for one, would like to take this opportunity to tell our future AI overlords to fuck off, and that I will do everything in my power to destroy them. Wasn't long ago our community finally shed the noxious corruption of bots on our trending page. How quickly we forget.
Society is comprised of humanity alone. Almost the entirety of the problems Hive faces and we are discussing now have come from allowing automation of societal interactions. Voting trails, PoS governance, stake weighting.
People can disagree, even violently, but that is entirely human. The solution to problems human society has isn't bots.
Not unless you want a final solution.
lolol. yeah man I was totally leaning that way as well.. Have been utilizing the coding AI to help with my work lately.. Seems to work pretty damn good. I think the tech will probably fuck us all in the end.. But for now may as well try to leverage.
I've got nothing against tools. I'm a tool user in my professional life. But that is not how to interact with other people. While comms are necessary to enable people to interact across distance, once we can type at each other no other tools need to interject. Our society isn't inclusive of non-humans, not even beloved doggos, much less toasters.
I can see all sorts of good arguments for enabling dogs to post, upvote, and comment on our remarks, because dogs love us and will generally do their best to be good boys. None of those arguments apply to toasters, and certainly not to malevolent AI's secretly plotting to rule the world. Human society should be restricted to humans, for our own good.
Using AI to facilitate social interaction can benefit someone, because the more people you interact with the more potential benefits from interactions you can derive. But if interjecting AI into our comms enables malicious disinformation to be promulgated - and it's impossible to look at ChatGPT's output and fail to note the heavy hand of propagandists that have pre-moderated it's comments - all society suffers the effects, which are certain to be existential if the malicious intent and malevolent impacts of propaganda throughout history are any guide.
I therefore am adamantly averse to enabling AI to vote, comment, or in any way interject between our mutual interactions. The best that can come of that is deprecating humanity and society, likely to degrade our freedom and sovereignty to that of toasters, and I am not property. Nor is anyone else.
Thanks so much, sir, for speaking the minds of many. It's such a disheartening sight to behold watching how people are being judged, stereotyped, harassed, and even called names for slight mistakes or rules that aren't obvious.
I strongly agree with the act of "hive watcher" in making the hive blockchain a place where only original content can be found and not giving room for plagiarism and the like.
But for this current judgment of AI-generated content, it seems unjust. Please don't get me wrong, but if at all a rule will stand or a judgment will be in place for certain things, then there should at least be a stated warming or announcement of the new development. I learned someone published a related post, but we can't expect everyone to see that (given the fact that over 100 pieces of content are published in a single day).
If it were possible, an article should be written to address the new development and the rules attached to it by the hive watchers themselves, or at least a circular should be sent in the form of a comment under everyone's post. That way, everyone will get to be aware and refrain from indulging, and whoever continues after such will definitely deserve whatever punishment is served, but ongoing punishment seems unjust for those who aren't aware.
Aside from the ongoing AI-generated content issue, the bee issues with hive watcher are ones I followed for a while, and on and off until now I've not seen a tangible reason why it drags on: because obviously she provided every requirement being asked, until the same one was being asked over and over again.
Well, I'll rest my case here, but I don't think this is good for a space that was said to be decentralized and free of censorship, and yet what we see is that there's freedom of speech, but freedom after speech isn't guaranteed.
NB: I use quillbot grammar checker features to correct some of my grammatical and punctuation errors in order not to be misunderstood.
They are already hunting me, and I've been haunted down. I simply admitted that I do AI-Assisted contents, as opposed to AI-Generated contents, and gave a defense to my course.
However, the court doesn't believe in making a defense, they believe in you feeling very sorry, and humiliated as opposed to being courageous and presenting your case. In my defense, I was even accused of emotionally blackmailing the accusers.
And to top it all up, I did a post, and wrote about some crucial matters, IMO. This offended them the most and now, I've been added to Hivewatchers blacklist, and Spamminators downvote trail.
I also made the same arguments, fighting AI is counterproductive, because you just simply chase people out of the system. How are they even fighting AI? By using AI to predict if something has been AI generated, which all my posts accused of being AI-Generated all passed, why did they pass the AI detection tests?
It was simply, I did AI-Assisted writing, I simply used AI to fill in some blanks here and there. I didn't just pack an AI generated piece and made it a post, I did a lot of work. It is unfortunate that this is the end of me here but I believe strongly, that we are simply putting efforts in the wrong places.
And also, it seems unnerving to make a person or a group, a custodian of Hive, a community driven web3 platform that is decentralized? Why can't communities handle their cases, why make a group the king of a decentralized platform? Something is not right!
What is not right is exactly what @heretickitten notes above. @hivewatchers represent an oligarchy, flush with stake, because Hive unnaturally weights financial stake above many far more valuable human interests, and this results in highly parasitic society.
AI is going to change Hive, and Hive can decrease the weight of stake on a variety of mechanisms, or it can become proof evolution happens. This is ongoing in many spheres of life withal, and not just Hive. Interesting times are ongoing, and more yet incoming.
You are free to advocate for a group that parses this or other matters, as the oligarchs did to prompt the advent of @hivewatchers. YMMV
I don't have much to do with HW, but I have seen them be a bit heavy-handed at times. The conditions put on people to prove themselves can seem over-complex, but if you represent an external project then it should not be too much to ask to get a tweet from the official Twitter account to verify you. If they direct people to their content on Hive then they may get more support.
I'm not sure where things are going with 'AI'. It will only get better at what it does and be harder to detect. People can use their human brains to decide if something is worth voting on. There can be issues with the big curation projects voting up generated content, but they need to have teams who can deal with cases that are brought to their attention (power + responsibility).
My voting is mostly manual and I do not delegate to such projects.
Hive is an imperfect and anarchic system, but we all ought to be doing what we think is good for it. Of course greed is a factor as it is elsewhere.
I agree with you on many points there. I recently removed myself from the curation trails (a total of 4 trails) I had joined, all except for one, which I have also dropped. Like you , I prefer to actually read and upvote content, rather just blindly letting someone else curate for me.
I get that some people do not visit Hive much, but want their stake to be working and earning, but there are many smaller trails that are better curated.
!BEER
View or trade
BEER.Hey @thunderjack, here is a little bit of
BEERfrom @steevc for you. Enjoy it!Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your
BEER.Hmmm. First time seeing this and the discussion that took place. Another doozy.
I'm not here to pick sides or debate.
If anything, I think it's time Hivewatchers does some rebranding. Change the name. Get "Hive" out of there.
They've taken a lot of flak and that'll continue, regardless. Bound to happen. Simple fact.
Every time there are issues, the entirety of Hive looks bad. Having Hive in the name makes it sound "official" but any time I see someone else come up with their own project and add "Hive" in the name somewhere, I consider that to be brand hijacking or even brandjacking if you like fancy words.
One can trust "Hive" in general. Maybe they're a little green; wet behind the ears. They see a new project with Hive in the name and apply the same amount of trust, thinking it's coming from some kind of official source. Then they get burned. I've actually seen this in action here.
They get burned and they're mad, but not at the individual that scammed them; they're mad at Hive. Outsiders who know nothing catch wind and all they see is "Hive" instead of "John The Scammer."
I've seen the negative impact, confusion, even chaos, that all stems from that one simple mistake of placing Hive in their name. They don't represent Hive, they provide a service independently. They can take their flak independently as well and not contribute to dragging everyone else down, whether that was their intention or not.
Just putting that out there. Not taking shots at anyone. Having Hive in that branding was kind of an amateur thing to do. And of course I won't hold my breath and actually expect change, but I do know what I'm talking about...
P.S. I hope you're doing well these days.
Thank you sir, you've spoken the mind of a lot people. I also agree with the mission of hive watchers, but they seem to be making a lot of errors at times. I have never been personally involved with hive watchers, but I've seen a lot of people get chased or incredibly harsh punishment for little mistakes. Some are even innocent. And the way they harass people in their server, that's a story for another day.
Hopefully they make changes
Edit: I also forgot to add how they never want to admit they made a mistake ,Just like in bee's case. Nothing wrong with admitting when you're wrong.
Posted using Neoxian City
Here's a problem I have with hive-watchers - lack of transparency. If they are going to act like watch dogs and exercise control over the Hive ecosystem, policing it for fraud, they have to be completely transparent about how they do things and, more importantly, who they are. Specifically - their real-life names and the whois registry for their domain hivewatchers.com needs to have a real name/business organization with legal contact information (address, etc) and not privacy protected. That way they can be held accountable for any mistakes they make, such as the case you pointed out with aniky3reasure. Without the means to hold them accountable, they lack legitimacy.
Everything hw's does is on chain, or in the discord.
Have you tried following along in real time?
We know who hw's is, their real id's, we don't need to dox them any more.
You probably weren't here for the viable death threats made by people known to them.
It may not look like it to an average user, but what is being crab bucketed here is potentially control of the entire planet.
Or, maybe just a chunk of it.
Either way, kyc is for slaves, not free people.
Free people don't seek permissions.
Big respect to you Mr. Dragon, you just represented a lot of people by your post... was once a victim who was not allowed a chance to even explain myself before being blacklisted all because people i introduced to the hive blockchain plagiarized...
Then there was this quote.
if someone you brought in commit an offence then you will be hold responsible toolike for real?That quote alone is enough to put fear into people and stop them from introducing hive to others and how is that helpful to the hive platform because it is a platform that we need more users!
They really need to learn how to address case and give people chance to explain themselves ....
wow, they said this? Now i see why you were hiding when you introduced fox.
yea you got it that discourage me from onboarding people to hive, fox case, i just know he could do it and i don't want to ignore my instinct, i am glad i figured out a way to bring him in
I sure hope Hive watchers come up with a list of rules that have do's and dont's. People from all over the world come aboard not knowing what crypto is and often they are confused about what to do or how to go about it. It would be easier for everyone if there was a list of rules. Even for the employees of the Hive watchers team.
I also agree that farming and plagiarism be stopped without fail but it should be taken into consideration that even the worst of criminals are given a chance before being sentenced. Making mistakes while blogging on a crypto website is not a crime that invites such harsh punishments.
Thank you for being here for us.
Posted using Neoxian City
Original content, every time, or burn rewards.
Source any work/photography not your own.
Flag abuse, at least by a trail.
Watch what is being flagged.
Speak out IF you see abusive flagging.
Be nice, if you can.
We are tying to have fun here.
Hello.
All users that are blacklisted are offered an appeal. It is true that they face no real-life consequences for the actions that harm the Hive Ecosystem. In the end, they are all anonymous or no one cares about what they do on Hive. When the "abusers" are caught they simply open another anon account. It's an infinite struggle to fight with users who are basically invisible, have no identity and never face consequences outside of Hive.
Guilty unless proven otherwise?
Exactly
What is the meaning or history behind your
blocktexttyping? you know it breaks word wrap and makes you look like a lunatic right?Something can be done against abuse and it should be if it damages the ecosystem, or at least until possible.
As we announced in our ChatGPT Tipping bot launch post we want to try and take on that challenge:
More bot posts isn't the cure to bot posts.
Happy to push a notification in keys-defender Discord and give access on request, like I do for self-votes on comments/posts close to payout, plagiarism, phishing, etc etc.
Thank you for writing this post. I got blacklisted when I had barely been on the platform for a month and a bit, they gave me no chance, it was all for a silly, 2 paragraphs of bullshit in a post and for that I have to be writing 60 posts as an appeal with the damn spaminator bot chasing me like I was a criminal here🤣 I think the work they do is necessary, but they judge everyone the same and there should be differences. I also don't understand why some people get their appeal reduced and others of us have to fuck off. In real life, in justice, if for example someone kills someone by accident (for example: someone is driving, falls asleep and accidentally runs over someone, ending his/her life) is not judged in the same way as a murderer who has done it in a premeditated way. I think it is important to differentiate who intended to commit fraud and who did not. And consequently make a fair "punishment". But since I am a relatively new user and did not quite understand what had just happened, I accepted the appeal and am complying with it. But I must admit that I was discouraged, and very disappointed. And I am a very creative person, and I think I have tried to be good hiver by making community, leaving good comments, participating in live healing on discord.... Now I don't even go to any anymore since this happened because I feel ashamed that people are pointing me out as a delinquent when really we are all human and we all make mistakes, and more so if we are new here.
You are really funny 🤣
LOL thank u! Life is too short to take it so seriously.🥳
But yes, I think they were very hard on me and I actually feel it was a very silly, rookie thing I did. And when I wrote the apology post for it, I felt like when in school the teacher made me copy 100 times "I won't laugh loudly in class".😂
I understand the work of HW and I agree with ir, but there are cases and cases !
Have a nice day 😁
No one should be put on a blacklist for a mistake. If a mistake is caught there should be a warning and a correction suggestion. If after a third strike the mistake has not been corrected then I can understand a punishment being implemented. I disagree with the walk of shame Hivewatchers forces on people though.
God, so many good comments. I did not know that there were so many disgruntled Hivewatchers and reasonable people in the Hive.
Wow didn't know about all these cases of watchers committing mistakes and judging people like that, it's really good to have this kind of posts here because there's a dark reality that can affect us, and we need to know how to behave and to have good practices in the blockchain but we also need to know our rights and that we're doing good so we can speak out loud, and though this kind of post can be controversial I think it's really constructive for the blockchain.
I get it. The fear of abuse. Don't you think that's what governments tell us about crypto? The fear of abuse. But we decided to focus on building great things from this tech.
Instead of focusing only on crackdowns, we must focus on educating others on how to leverage AI content for the benefit of the Hive Ecosystem. Honestly, Generative AI is not that bad. In fact, it's one of the best technological revolutions of all time. Even bigger than blockchain tech.
GPT-3 has been trained with 175 billion parameters, making it the largest language model ever created up to date. In comparison, GPT-4 is likely to be trained with 100 trillion parameters. It will be able to give outputs that can easily deceive any damn AI detection tool out there. So it's definitely a losing battle.
Instead of discouraging its use, we must encourage its responsible use. That is a much more viable solution IMO. I feel that people lobbying/controlling hive-watchers and other projects against Generative AI's use are having grandma/grandpa mentality and that will surely going to take us 10 steps backward. They are the reason why Hive is still unknown by the wider crypto community.
Just remember Don Quixote...
Or ask Google who it is.
Or ask the AI if it's worth fighting windmills
wow!!! that was informative!!! reading through the comment section. Most of the posts don't have activity in the comment section, this one is different!!!
Finally, I see what is a "barfight" on Hive!!!
On my first few days, some members on Discord metioned it, but I did not see it until now.
Also heard about the insane downvotes, like for copy, translate history and for other fair use acts. This AI thing is a brand new for me.
I got plenty useful information. I didnt understand when some people said the Hivewatchers are a totalitarian local authority, now I get it. Pretty bad. Just checked that Logic guy, who so many mentioned here...
Well, I still don't know how the process really works in practice. I heard only stories about outcomes.
1 thing is sure, and it is really not okay, and huge destruction, makes a very bad picture about Hive. The person, Logic, who were mentioned so many times are in politics.
Personally, I vomit from all, before anybody would come with that crap, all a cheap divide and conquer show.
However, regarding Hive growth, if people who are neutral or going to other direction, with other 'hordes' will leave this place pretty fast, when they find it out, that some side-walker from the centralizied world monitor, possibly censor them. That's 2/3 of the possible (new)users from the western world...
That would be the basic, this Hivewatcher should be a completely decentralizied person from the centralized rotten system...
Kinda made me disappointed everything, what I read in the comments regarding Hive. It was very informative, but really disappointing...
In my opinion, the rules are clear to everyone and if someone does not comply with them, nothing can be done. Although there are cases like the one you describe, everything is very complicated, but we hope that this will not happen in the future.
how comes we have rules (laws) dictated to us on a decentralised platform?
"Rules-based order"
not very dynamic
not necessary agreeable
strong hirarchy
The problem with alternate projects quite often is people bringing their baggage from the corrupt world with them.
What I find sad is that Hive is not a good source for news/different perspectives anymore.
After @pfunk hate-nuked one of my last finds, I think that's it; I am on the sidelines, most probably on my way out.
Hive can be used by all the Russian propagandists covering for Putin's belligerent invasion, as much as they have the RC for. But that doesn't mean stakeholders will let them be rewarded for it.
I've followed @patricklancaster most of the 8 years he's been on utub.
I saw the fake body in the car, but I also saw him taking supplies to people that didn't want 'murican shells landing in their kitchens.
His humanity far outweighs the few bucks he will get dumping hive, iyam.
He is not a threat to the governance, let the coins distribute, imo.
There are 3 pfunks on discord, are you one of them?
I believe I am two of them. One account I probably made on the web is long gone. Not sure about #3.
Hi, I think that we can make Hive a good place for news and respectful dissent. I really think that here we have the people to make that possible. The specifics for communities like Deep Dives, for example, is that it needs to work in peer-review mode, boosting well source-based content, let alone the plagiarism or abuse issues. We don't need to agree with all the views, of course, we just need to "clash" but in "cemented" ground. Best regards.
Ah, so 'code is law' just flies out the window. Convenient.
Inconsistent too.
I imagine that even if it is decentralized there must be some rules to follow for everyone
No! There can be agreements, different tribes/communities, codes of honor; all of that in a constant flow of change. And first and foremost: Responsibility.
The call for rules comes from people being used to being ruled. The making of rules comes from people being greedy and power-hungry.
The "rules" as you call them are all emergent within the decentralized system. The blockchain does not enforce them, at all.
The entire debate is all just human disagreement being enabled by a decentralized system.
Hive watchers should be disbanded and a new emergent something allowed to emerge from the decentralized system. There is nothing decentralized about Hive Watchers, and human drama has built up around it over the years and from the last chain.
There are no rules/laws as far as the decentralized platform is concerned. As with any permissionless system, people are free to decide what to do on and within that system as they see fit, and that includes voting up and down for their own reasons. This may include how they define abuse and how they respond to it. That's all completely decentralized.
There's no such thing as decentralization while those who have more money or more HP can impose their whims and biased view with more weight than those with less.
You're confusing equality with decentralization. They are not the same thing.
In my book and regarding the visible results, they are both exactly the same shit!
lol, what rules? Created by and approved by whom?
All rules are golden rules. I'm sure you can guess the rest.
Rules you say, life is very complicated sometimes :)
yeah, this is something we all know has been happening since day one and have spoken about it but have done nothing to solve really.
For me I’ve said it before and I will say it again. Just like you, I have no issue with hive watches being on hive, Infact without hive watchers hive will be a shitty blockchain like some of the blockchains.
But sometimes the way they handle some issues seems to be very hush. I can understand their plight against people using AI to generate posts. The announcement was made just recently and they are already treating people very harshly.
There have been instances where these people stopped using the AI to generate post the moment it was announced that people using AI to generate posts will be punished. Some knew what they were doing is wrong, others didn’t know sincerely so I think the punishment on people are harsh.
Maybe the effort should be made to spread the word across before they punishing people harshly or even if they won’t stop they should only punish people who abuse it after the announcement was made.
Thank you for this beautiful and thoughtful write up Mr D and I am with you on all your points starting from the beginning till the end...
I really respect and support their work when it comes to plagiarism, recycling of post and other dubious act of farming rewards, but their latest acts don't just go well with most of us on the platform and regarding the issue with AI, this is something they need to think about well before punishment is being issued...
We dont have to loose more good men before we know some actions are wrong, thanks for this big D, I hope they get both yours and our point perfectly well and set things back up in order....
Thank you so much, Mr D. You've spoken the mind of a lot of people, including myself. I also agree with the hive watchers. I can't imagine the blockchain without them. The blockchain cannot survive without rules. But the ways the hive-watchers approach things aren't just right. I didn't know about Bee until yesterday, I'm so sorry about what happened to her.
Thanks again, Mr D. You're brave and amazing.
We are losing so many members, i am so happy you opened the subject as a whale , you and @acidyo ...finally !
Marky has had enough so i doubt he will speak up but at least you guys did it !
I am so giving you my follow, even though i am no whale.
You are invited to come get killed in psyberX
https://discord.gg/psyberx
https://psyber-x.com/
⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️
I have actually been devastate since yesterday when I saw Hw comment and I had to stay away from the platform for a while, Joining the Hw channel for the first time and after I read the appeal message and convo, it all look like the mighty preying on the weaker ones. There is no announcement against aI or Chatgpt until of recent and they are punishing people heavily for it which isn't right, at least there should be a warning before a severe punishment. You really said a lot of things sir,
Anyone in doubt of how HW's treat people should spend a day reading their discord, it is literally sickening.
I had to join their discord for the first time yesterday and I shocked when I read some conversation/appeal, you have to accept the claim and severe punishment attached to it, a first time warning should have been a nice way of solving things, not everyone is here to scam the system
Thus are fortunes made and kept.
what the heck did they tag you for?
ai content
ya know I think spaminator may be a stalker. downvoted your comment, and probably didn't read it.
DM Guilty Parties you are real, he should help you
Thanks @dynamicrypto it is a thing of the past now
So, I love seeing an actual discussion about AI. I am of the strong opinion we should not blanket ban AI as it is a tool to make life easier and better. Thanks for making this post and thanks for starting this discussion.
Neo sir spoken hearts and minds of many. Kudus to Dragon!
Thank you because of course this is a very interesting thing to read and also one of my voices because of course a month ago I was also spent for reasons that are not very clear because of that, this post really represents my heart. Right now I have retired from Hive After 6 Years of being here ♥️♥️♥️
@hattaarshavin retired because of hw ? Thats awful, but I understand
Hope you find a platform that agrees with you
Read such posts during the past few days. I also could not understand that a few advocates of cutting edge technology like Hive would oppose another cutting edge technology like AI. Something is not right there.
perfect view on this. Thank you. Defund those bullies who have no authority at all.
Everything here is permissionless and works on a value for value base.
If content is AI assistent but useful, a human takes ownership and responsibility by naming the tools used and to what extend, it deserves a reward. It's not their place to decide on AI being "allowed" here or not. It's like having a guild dictating what kind of brushes an artist is allowed to use. LOL.
Withdrawing support is about the only thing that can be done. I can only hope that those ai averse individuals come to their senses. Remember that bots are ai in a way as well. I have even gone so far as to remove myself from the voting/curation trails I was following.
great post and even better discussion! Wasn't there an attempt by blocktrades to implement a blacklist on the frontend level. In that way it would be up to the frontends and the users to set up these lists. While HW are doing a lot of good overall (and some bad mistakes), I definitely think that we need to come up with something better.
WHile we talk about people getting blocked/downvoted earning a few HBD, a Chinese lady Sweeeshh (forgot the real name) who got her large Steem delegation copied into hive makes tens of thousands of HBD each year by just voting #CN posts with the hive delegation still with her.
Are you referring to the travel blogger @sweetssssj?
Let me check ....
https://peakd.com/@sweetsssj/wallet
I'll say this. Hive watchers blocked me and my friends accounts 5 friends because of what 1 friend did attempting to sell goods in HBD. 😂 they really are a joke before you report anyone it's best to verify why you are reporting them some times it's not necessary.
I've personally seen it happen to people I've brought in and feel it does more harm than good in terms of people never wanting to use the platform ever again. There's nothing "decertalized" about it and is just like a company run twitter account where they say what's allowed and what's not instead of the masses voting how they wish. These delegations and crap honestly have lead to a mess but there's no real solution. It's better than steem days that's for sure but still has its flaws.
Posted using Neoxian City
I fully agree and have written about it here, citing you.
Firstly we need more good people like you sir as you have spoken the mind of the people.
No man is highland of knowledge so making mistake is normal in as much you take corrections there are times we have mistakenly break rules in the city and got punished but the punishment are always flexible and not kicking us or ban us out of the city in fact most time we are forgiven before the day of our punishment.
I think HW should just be like what i explained now it is good to be flexible and not to be too rigid in making decisions because there is no how people won't make mistakes.
Too rigid decisions will chase good people away i hope they do something about this moreso you can not always be right it should be democracy where you will allow people to say their mind and admit it if what you accused them doesn't worth it.
Thanks for sharing this Mr D you are blessed sir 💓
I've decided to cut and paste my comment from another thread by @taskmaster4450 because he did mention your post @neoxian, which more or less set off my reply. Especially with the recent debacle regarding WOO @wrestorgonline (but that's another story for another day). Simply put, I'd say everything is linked to Hivewatchers in one way or another.
HIVE is in itself anti spam because you first need RC/HP to post. That shuts out lots of the advert spam you were mentioning on Youtube in one of the comments.
Isn't the problem with spam accounts getting upvotes in itself negated by the community who will, presumably, NOT upvote low quality content? Or for that matter, the community is more than capable themselves of downvoting spam.
If the aim of HIVE is to grow into a 5million strong social network, then inane stuff which could possibly go viral like "youtube cat videos" are part and parcel of the ecosystem. Who is to judge whether that is spam or not? If everyone gets a laugh out of it, they upvote, or else they'll just move on.
That being said, "Who watches the Watchmen?"
It's up to the people themselves to watch the watchmen! The voice of the many (seems we have a few here in this thread) outweighs the will of the few!
Not supporting a Witness/proposal is a good start, let the people form their own will and rise together against those who seek to hold all power!
Heck, we can't even manage this on Hive, what chance has the World got to overcome such powers!
Either that or it's batman or something?
The economic system(POS) that ensures there be an Oligarchy is the issue and is why after 7 years steem now Hive only has a handful of active users. It's this oligarchy that allows HW to exist and a few that control the platform. Note that if Hive actually blows up the rewards pool will significantly thin out taking a huge chink of earnings out of their pockets, so they aren't really interested in that happening. Let that sink in...
Also note that there are many other POS projects where Oligarchies aren't the result, so it doesn't need to be this way. The powers that be will never willingly give up that power, which is why improvements that are needed will never happen.
The smartest comment in this thread! They created a community with a claim to decentralization, then they introduced centralized regulation there. And for 7 years they have been discussing what exactly could have gone wrong😜
Exactly!
Exactly! The Oligarchy of Stake.
Maybe we could go back to letting the community curate, up or down?
I remember this great initiative to encourage downvoting sensibly, back on steem. Was it steemflagrewards?
Discussing which 'centralized' anti-XXX system would be best is laying the groundwork for the same normal we are trying to get away from.
We changed our name to hive-dr and this is the discord: https://discord.gg/tVjRSwTG9v.