Why You Should NOT Run Relic Removal
@theking24 recently wrote an article on Hive claiming "you should run relic removal 90% of the time!". I don't want them to think I'm attacking them personally in any way, I enjoy their content, but I completely disagree with this sentiment, and so I decided to do a deep dive into the subject to learn more myself. (So big shouts to @theking24 for inspiring this article!)
I believe their article is incorrect for a number of reasons (that it is very important to run it; that it takes a "huge amount of luck" to get relic removal from the Sanctum when you need it) which I will go over in this article, wherein I will make the case against including relic removal most of the time.
The Sacrifice
Relic Removal comes at a cost. We can quickly look at a handful of relic removal creatures to see what we're sacrificing.
If you play a 2 mana 2/2 Iron Tooth Goblin, you could've played a 2/4 Skeleton Heavy instead. If you played a 2/4 Bronze Servant for 3 mana, you could've played a domain-specific creature that is strictly better than vanilla 3/4s (ex. Cruel Overseer, which also spits out two free 1/1s every turn if you're at 15 or less health, or Rabid Bear which is 3/4 OR 4/4 if frenzied). Not into a bunch of free stats? Ok how about all the 3 mana 3/3s with Blessed. These will all grant you a good chunk of favor on average which can be used to grab some free relic removal from the Sanctum if you actually need it!
When I say "actually need it", I don't mean on that turn. I mean in the relatively few matches that have key relics, you can pick up the removal as soon as possible. We'll go over those key match ups in a bit.
First this brings up the important point of the Sanctum, and we should examine it very carefully.
The Sanctum
There are exactly 20 cards in Sanctum Decks inside 5 decks. One deck contains two relic removers: Bronze Servant and Wiccan Trapper. That means 10% of the Sanctum cards are relic removal. As three decks are showing simultaneously, and one deck has a 50% chance of giving you removal, there's a 60% chance the relic removal deck is face up and a 50% chance that the card for sale from that deck is relic removal.
This means there's a 30% chance that you will see relic removal face up when you start a new game.
Of course people then purchase cards from the Sanctum and it rotates during the course of play, so you have even more chances of grabbing removal later as well.
Don't Blessed creature sound even better now than under-statted creatures? You get the favor first and grab the removal in 1 out of 3 games when you need it. (And sometimes you can still get it as it cycles through, if not at the start, let's say an average of 3 cards are purchased, that means 25% of the entire sanctum will be face up at some point, and if you carefully choose the right Sanctum deck to cycle, you might just get there quicker!).
Game States
Let's say you ARE running relic removal in your deck. This doesn't magically make opponents' relics disappear. There are 3 game states that we will look at to start off with.
- You are holding relic removal in hand BUT opponent has no relic equipped.
- You are not holding relic removal in hand BUT your opponent has a relic equipped.
- You are holding relic removal AND your opponent has a relic equipped.
Now point 3 needs further subdivision, because of something called Durability. Not all relic removal is equal, and not all relics can be removed all the time.
3a. You can't remove their relic even with your removal because their durability is too high.
3b. You CAN remove their relic because you can remove enough Durability.
And yet, point 3b. has further subdivisions even still.
3b I. You have a better / more important play to make anyway.
3b II. You do NOT have a better play to make and you play the relic removal!
Let's look at an example from the tournament match I played earlier. I had 5 health remaining, my opponent had a 2/2 creature on board and a 2 durability Cudgel of Atonement equipped. In the Sanctum I could afford the answer to either the creature OR the relic, but not both! Vow of Champions OR Bronze Servant? What to do?? The relic is going to do 4 damage over two turns, and I had an answer to the 2/2 the following turn. So grab the relic removal of course!
Hold up, not so fast. My opponent still had a Canonize left, and with merely a few cards remaining in their deck and a full hand, the odds they were holding lethal were far too high. I grabbed the Vow of Champions, killed the 2/2, and lived to see another day, ate the 4 damage over two turns while knowing I very likely dodged lethal, at least for a few turns more!
The point here is merely that removing relics isn't even always the most important thing you could be doing, even in the niche situations where you can use it and where it would even be considered very beneficial.
IN ALL OF THE OTHER SITUATIONS you have put yourself at a disadvantage! You could've had those better statted, better passive ability and/or Blessed creatures!
The Meta
Another major factor to look at before deciding if you want to include a subpar creature is what are people actually playing? Yes, Necroscepter is busted and if you can't remove it you will likely lose!
In the last 6 hours in Mythic, only 4% of games have been Soul Burn. (source: www.godsunchainedrightnow.com)
You queue into Zombie Death, and now you're in the Game States breakdown. Does he get the Necroscepter equipped on turn 2? Trick question, they ALWAYS GET IT EQUIPPED ON TURN 2 WTF.
Ahem. Sorry, it's actually closer to 40-50% (depending on going first vs. second) if they hard mulligan for it. (And that's also assuming that 100% of Soul Burn decks are running 2x copies of Necroscepter, which obviously isn't true, but sure, I'll give it to you).
But now the question becomes: do you have the answer in hand? If you run 2x Iron Tooth Goblins and hard mulligan for them you're gonna be holding them roughly 40-50% of the time.
So 1% of your games you are the hero and slay the mighty Necroscepter on turn 2!! Hooray! 🎉 🎉 And in 99% of games you've got bad creatures!
Ok ok, there are other relics. But do we need to remove them? Pallas' Wand is the next biggest offender of "if they play it you need to remove it or you will lose". However, it is legendary, so they will have it less frequently at the start, and it is expensive so not everyone runs it (11% of matches in the last 6 hours were Mage Bolt, but only a few thousand copies of the Wand exist, so the number actually running this is probably closer to 5% of the 11%, so overall less than 1% of decks are running it). Secondly, it has "infinite durability" and thus if your opponent is deck peeking and knows you have removal, can play around it and keep the durability high enough that you can't touch it anyway.
If you're deck peeking and know your opponent has these relics then you can hard mulligan for removal. This is key. If you're not deck peeking, you are hard mulliganing for subpar cards. Even if they are running important relics but don't get their relic, you are now stuck holding cards in hand when you could have had a better playable card in hand.
You might be saying "war has lots of relics!" However, they mostly have blitz (outside of Enduring Shield) and therefore will only have 1 durability left when you remove them most of the time. You're not taking away the full value, so you really need to justify the downgraded creatures to remove one durability on a Blade of Styx with a Bronze Servant. (Or remove 1 durability on a Magic Missile Launcher and watch as that splash damage kills your Iron-Tooth Goblin anyway!)
Let's look closer at Iron-Tooth vs. Skeleton Heavy when your opponent has a 1 durability Blade of Styx equipped. If you drop the 2/2 Iron-Tooth, your opponent loses out on 3 damage, but you sacrificed 2 stats. So you've gained 1 stat overall if he were to have swung the Blade into your Skeleton Heavy. However, as established, this is niche. You've lost 2 stats in all other scenarios, which are the majority of scenarios. Of course Blade can also hit face and HP is definitely something that needs to be considered against War. However, if you're dropping better creatures, you're also pressuring them to use their relic hit on your important creatures rather than hit face anyway. Ex. You drop a Miraculous Familiar or Celestial Stag instead of a Bronze Servant. They will kill the 3/3 not hit your face or you'll end up with a ton of value. However, you already got some value from Blessed and probably free cards by making it proc the turn you dropped it.
Infinite Durability Relics Are Busted
Other very annoying relics that would be nice to remove are the Champions' Relics. Nerferu's Khopesh is nasty and wins games, but starts at 3 durability and isn't needed until later in the game, so it is very easy for this durability to get up to 10 or more. There's also Selena's Bow, Lysander's Spear, Valka's Axe, and Orfeo's Mask (in addition to the previously discussed Pallas' Wand).
If you don't have the answer in hand on the very turn it is equipped (and often even if you do, depending on what you're running) it's not going to be enough. (Ex. Wiccan Trapper does nothing to the infinite durability relics, Bronze Servant doesn't really help more most of the time either).
When Should You Run Relic Removal?
Below is a thorough, complete, and comprehensive list of all the excellent relic removal in Gods Unchained:
- Chiron, The Teacher
End of list.
Why is that? The relic removal here is completely free! Chiron is effectively an old Shieldbearer (a 1/1 for 1 Mana with "give +1/+1 to a friendly creature"), and even this was deemed too good to exist, so they nerfed Shieldbearer down to a 0/1. On top of the Shieldbearer text however, we also get Remove 1 Durability from your opponents relic.
Outside of Chiron, you're always losing something. So when is it ok to lose something?
- Tournaments. The match I played tonight we were each allowed to ban one god. I chose to ban Magic. Now I didn't need to run relic removal in any one of my decks because there was nothing worth removing that is also possible to remove (again, Khopesh is busted and this is why they introduced Counterfeit, but they gave it to the one domain that doesn't need it!). No one in the top level of the game is bringing Zombies to a $7000 tournament!
However, if I had banned a different God, maybe I'd have wanted to run 1x Iron-Tooth until I could no longer face Pallas' Wand, and then I'd have removed the Iron-Tooth.
- If the Meta is so overrun with OP relics that it is favorable in the majority of your matches. As established earlier in the Game States discussion, it is not favorable in the majority of matches and often not even in matches you need it in.
Let's say Necroscepter death jumps up to 15% of all matches being played. And they buff another relic to the same level of being busted. Now you can start making legitimate arguments for including removal.
- If you're playing the type of deck that can hold cards in hand long term without getting punished. Control decks with card draw. Decks where you are constantly holding 7-8 cards in hand can get away with playing the waiting game, holding up a relic removal for 7 turns waiting for your opponent to finally play something. And yet the type of deck that can stall like this doesn't even need relic removal anyway! (Study the top 100 BWD decks and you'll see no relic removal in any of them). Perhaps a midrange deck is the only correct place for relic removal, but midrange has struggled to find a place in Gods Unchained.
Aggro decks don't have this luxury. You need to be playing the best creatures you can as fast as you can. This may be the most important point. Most people play aggro and there's just no room in their deck - or time for - for relic removal.
In Conclusion
Sometimes you'll have removal and you'll slam it down triumphantly, removing your opponents awesome turn 2 Necroscepter like a boss! Trust me, that feels amazing. But most of the time you simply don't need it OR when you do need it, you don't have it in hand anyway. Also there's a decent chance you can just get it from the Sanctum.
One last consideration is that removal is like herd immunity: if enough other people are running it it will protect the whole herd. People with relics will be kept in check and the meta won't become too overrun with relics that it forces you to use removal yourself. So uh...just don't tell anyone about this article and keep convincing them to run removal on your behalf. 😎
I'm sure people will have many thoughts on this article. Let me know in the comments that you're going to disregard everything I said and that you're going to run your 2x Wiccan Trappers + 2x Bronze Servants anyway, because sometimes it just feels good to remove a relic or two!
If I were to guess the correct percentage of decks you should be running relic removal in it would be closer to 20%, and certainly not 90%!
~Copper
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I agree with a lot of what you said on this, i used to only count on sanctum and forgo removal all together was forced almost lately with those war shields and death zombies, but all in all, seems i was not a total mad man haha this is a good text to fall back and explain why to others! good article this one!
Damnit, Cop. Came here to argue with you, but left destroyed by facts and logic. 😃
I actually dropped my Bronze Servant this past weekend after realizing fewer people were playing tons of relics, but I hadn't thought about all the discounts that had to be applied to its value (including the chance for it in the sanctum).
Nicely constructed argument. Thanks for making us all a little bit better at GU. That's why you get 100% of my 0.221 HIVE vote 🤣
That's interesting and you have a good point. I never saw it like this. I always thought, removing the relic asap is a good thing. This was an eye opener.
I laughed at this! 🤣
Unfortunately I then cast a couple of matches where people did bring zombies to the $7k tournament LOL
And @wispsi also saw some people bringing it, too!!!
I suppose I should've phrased it better... 😄😄😄😄
Perhaps: "Unless you've scouted your opponent and they LOVE zombies, they aren't going to bring zombies." is better!
Dude, zombies just don't stop at a tournament door. 🧟 😅
!gif zombie
Via Tenor
When slayer GP was good and buffed relics. I would have told you can pry my relics from my cold dead hands, but alas it is not still so.
Makes a lot of sense for sure, but the few times that I've managed to destroy an Enduring Shield/Necroscepter on T1/T2 do make it harder to remove all my relic removal just yet. Of course, I've also seen many games where my Iron-tooth Goblin just sits in my hand while I keep hoping that my opponent plays a decent relic 😂
I just really hope that you can convince people with this well detailed argument, so I can play my Zombie deck again.
Hahaha 😂😂
Okay, now I feel bad for buying my Iron tooth goblin. It seems very useful in some matches and does feel like a dead card in some.
Tempo magic is the main reason I'm running relic removal because of Pallas Wand and Scepter of Artistry but just like you pointed out -- these are Legendary cards and in the case of Pallas -- quite expensive and not a lot of decks have it.
I will be tweaking my deck this WR and use that slot for a more optimized card and see how it goes.
Iron-Tooth is still definitely worth owning! You never know when GU will tweak another relic to be as busted as Enduring Shield was in the fall of last year...
Plus some decks will still want to run it, but yeah, my Iron-Tooths definitely gather dust from time to time.
I had Counterfeit this Weekend Ranked all the time and before that for a while in Ethereal Diamond and Mythic. It can steal Necroscepter or Enduring Shield. Moonlight Charm is a nice one either but it is not too often.
But too often Counterfeit hangs out idle. There were cases when I had 2-3 cards and one of them was Counterfeit while my opponent has no relic. Paying 3 mana for drawing card isn't what I dream about.
Also, my Deception deck has a good chance to beat Death / Nature without Counterfeit and I too often lose to War with Counterfeit. So what is the sense?
Probably, I won't have it next weekend.
Having subpar creatures is even sadder. They don't meet relics too often and you lose an opportunity to use better cards.
Your idea about having a blessed creature instead of a relic-remover looks interesting. My current Deception deck has one Ludia's Dedicant. Probably, having another one instead of Counterfeit may be an answer.
I mean I do agree with a lot of what you said...but those last examples... xD
Anecdotal evidence like that can go both ways!
In my match against Aldoc (who I'm pretty sure is considered one of the better players in this game) I teched in a bronze servant to go with my irontooth (didn't have 2) and used that to remove his Khopesh winning the bwd mirror.
After that he DID bring zombies to a $7000 tournament and won the next game with it in a cunning swap the neuter my aggro war, which did not run any weapon removal and could not get past all the leech gained by zombies.
Also I would argue that Scepter of Artistry is more important to remove than Pallas' wand even against many fine tuned magic decks. I say this as somebody who plays magic more than anything else with an extremely high win rate against other top players. It is an even harder win condition than Pallas' wand, you do not even need the draw if you can get it on a scryer or any creature you have given ward/protect in the majority of matchups (and getting it on the scryer is a real win condition in the mirror, which is the matchup it is least effective in due to copious amounts of removal and mage bolt).
Still, on the whole I do not think running bronze servants and wiccan trappers is something I would choose to do. I rely mostly on the sanctum to remove necrosceptres and usually just win through high statted creatures and value cards regardless of it being equipped. A counterfeit can actually be really disgusting though and I do not run control deception, more an order one. If you ever run non meme deception decks based on stats/order I would suggest trying it, I have found a lot of success, even just getting 1 charge of a Jaguar Staff or Blade of Styx can be game changing.
I mean I could not include any examples... But I gave a bunch of percentages, too. The overall point is way more matches will be determined by having better creatures in matches where your opponent has dead cards in hand.
That's why I said I generally agree and don't plan on including wiccan trappers or bronze servants in any normal decks, especially for ladder, but there are definitely times it comes in handy and I've seen a number of great tournament players bring 1 or even 2 irontooths/counterfeits depending on what you expect to face! I even lost to SamBam in the Cujo tournament with him bringing 2 irontooths the first game and 2 counterfeits the 2nd! :D
Was just providing some counter examples of where it really can win games incase people see this and think it is never a good thing to do! As the way you phrased it made it seem like a terrible choice to bring to any tournament!
No, read the bottom of the article! I say that tournaments are one of the best reasons to play relic removal! 😎
In my case I knew my opponent wouldn't play zombies but if your opponent might, definitely gotta be careful. Though I don't think it is a good deck and I'm very surprised Aldoc would run that!! I'd love to watch those games, I saw you uploaded a match?? I'll cast it this week!!!
Ah I guess I misunderstood! Thought you were saying it was only good against magic :D Well I apologize if my tone came across as overly confrontational, I really was not trying to disagree with the statistics or logic or anything and hope I made that clear! Had just lived through examples of the exact opposite situations lol!
And yeah it was some interesting matches with some interesting techs and deck choices! I played some decks for the first time ever lol, most notably bwd. Hope you enjoy watching the games, they were very stressful to play through ahaha!
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Interesting thoughts, Bronze Servant is a top card
Bronze servant is an expensive skeleton heavy half the time.
Yes, it's expensive, but for a Favor it's a good buy in the game
Zombies is the only reason why I run a relic removal. Playing against them without one is torture. It might've been fine before the buff, but the favor dampening effects of it is one of the most annoying things ever, up there with repeated board sleep. Granted I don't run any in my aggro war deck, but with most other decks, I feel my winrate against zombies is much much higher if I remove their relic at least once. And with the rewards re-structure, I see a bunch of zombie decks on the weekend.