Ever since I was a kid, there has been a conversation about the explosion in global population growth and there has been talk about the measures that can ease the burden. Often the countries that have "the problem" are poor countries, ravaged by war and economic crises, poor education and inadequate access to healthcare. A lot of the talk has been about how improving conditions reduces population growth, which has been seen as a good thing.
You might have seen something along these lines in the last couple days:
The government said on Tuesday that 9.56 million people were born in China last year, while 10.41 million people died. source
That is the first reduction in the population of China since the 1960s.
This is good, isn't it?
Afterall, no matter what we do individually to combat man-made climate change, if the global population keeps growing, it is going to counteract any benefits. So, shouldn't we want an aging population that will pour out of the bucket faster than it is filling up? The problem is of course, that since this isn't the world of Soylent Green where the elderly are turned into dry biscuits to feed the poor, the elderly want to be accommodated, fed, cared for, treated and valued.
The nerve of some people!
And, as we largely don't live in a world where family cares for family, in order to take care of the elderly, a very large number of people are required, from nurses to banking staff, builders to dry biscuit makers. But, a shrinking population causes problems with this, as at some point, there just aren't enough people to fill all the open positions and at least for now, as hard as they try, robots aren't replacing humans in key areas, otherwise restaurants wouldn't be short-staffed. And, then there are other issues like, where while much of the world is currently experiencing housing shortages due to investors and other supply issues, once the population declines enough, real estate goes into a freefall due to oversupply, though that will likely be some time away, especially in highly populated areas.
However, in countries like Finland with a population of about 5.5M people, the expectation is that there needs to be 200-300 thousand additional workers brought into the country to satisfy labor needs. That is an increase of foreign labor by over 5%, which is in effect doubling the amount of non-Finnish (like me) workers in the country. And since they will be brought in to fill jobs that Finns can't or won't do, it will mean that they hold skills that Finns don't have or don't want to use. It doesn't mean that there is full employment already.
That isn't going to cause any issues at all.
It should be obvious that there is an issue with the way we think about population and wellbeing, because if for example all the people living in slums in Indian cities were to live like "normal" people, the pollution it would cause would be enormous.
So would the cost.
But "cost" is not a very good way to frame it, is it? For example, one of the arguments against a lot of clean tech initiatives is the "cost" of it, but that makes very little sense, because of there is a cost to development, manufacturing and implementation, that is a profit. It is a stupid argument to not do something, because that is how an economy works - the economy is agnostic about what is demanded and supplied, it will work as it works regardless. It isn't too expensive to stop using oil in cars, it just isn't profitable for those selling oil and, the initial cost of the changeover is going to be enormous for the consumer. But, "enormous cost" means "enormous profits" for some group of companies and those employed by them, meaning it is still generating economic activity that will supplant the previous suppliers.
For an economy to work well, there has to be some kind of balance in the economic community. For a simplified instance, a tribe of 100 people would have hunters and gathers that would provide food, craftspeople who would make tools, and elders who would carry lore and learning and would teach it to the children to keep the cycle going. But, they also needed to make sure that they didn't overhunt, and perhaps worse, underhunt.
The more people "not doing much" yet still demanding, the faster the equilibrium is going to get out of sync, where the required supply isn't being "hunted and gathered" and the tools and learnings aren't being created and taught. Essentially, a skill gap forms, as well as labor shortage, which is where we are headed with aging populations and youth who think a viable career is making TikTok videos.
Only so many people can claim workless wealth before the economics fails and supply of real goods and services is unable to meet demand. This should of course balance in a free-market where the price/ cost/ profit of what is in demand will increase to move resources and fill the gaps, but that also implies that the skills required are relatively easily available, and the labor is willing. Have a look at the nursing and teaching industries and the labor shortages they have, and see that there is an issue - one of them being that the price paid to them hasn't gone up enough, even though there is demand for the service.
All of the aging population talk has nothing to do with anything, other than money, so don't get confused that it is otherwise, as when they talk about it, it is all about the economic impact of an aging population, not the wellbeing or health of society as a whole. And, the "cost" is nonsense, as essentially, cost is a meaningless metric, other than it being used to track activities in the economy, meaning that people get paid for actions that are deemed valuable and when they aren't deemed valuable, they don't get paid.
A healthy economy isn't the amount of money or whatever token is being passed from hand to hand, it is where performed activities that produce goods and services are aligned with the demand for the goods and services. A healthy economy could function without any tokenization at all, but we all should know how that turns out in a world of humans that are looking to do as little work for as much of the token as possible, so they can use that token to pay for the work they don't want to do. But, when enough people don't want to do the work, or can't - well, the economy collapses. As does it when enough people are doing the wrong work.
The current economy really is a mess, but it isn't just because the governments don't know how to handle finances. It is also because so many of us are doing the "wrong" activities for a healthy economy, which means that we are increasingly getting out of synchronization, even if we are hitting demand.
What I mean by this goes back to the agnostic economy, because economic activity doesn't care what we demand and supply - even if what we want, isn't what we need. But, the laws of economics dictates, if there is a demand, no matter the cost, someone will create the supply.
Want a better economy?
Demand it.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
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O_O
I remember people whining about that here, but the same people doing the whining wouldn't go and do the jobs that were getting "stolen".
Though in fairness from the sounds of things from some people exiting industries that are now short (nursing jumping to mind most immediately) situation sounds pretty untenable for the most part.
Tiktok seems fine as a career choice (or at least a thing to do for a while as careers shift with the sands of time these days). It's like concept art and animating though, massively oversaturated because "everyone" wants to do it, so you really have to be extremely exceptional to "stand out" and get the job/attention/reach/whatever. Anyone that heads down that thinking it's "workless wealth" have their eyes opened pretty damn fast and if they really want it they'll work at it, if they don't then they'll head out to try something else (with or without the epic screaming tantrums about how people are too stupid to recognise their brilliance and the algorithms are against them for no reason etc XD).
Amusingly I had a really long conversation with my boys yesterday (mostly with 18yo through 14yo was kicking around listening and occasionally contributing) about stuff like this and 18yo is at that young gung ho world is my oyster stage where he does recognise that some things (like running businesses etc) and wealth building is a lot of hard work, but doesn't fully grok just how hard that work can be, for him right now with his limited experience everything seems easy because it's actually very simple on paper/in one's head. He just looks puzzled or thinks I must be grossly exaggerating things when I explain to him that what's involved is harder/takes longer than what he thinks.
Like both were horrified that I gave up a business that was becoming successful "just" because I really, really wasn't enjoying it anymore and the time the expansion would take up was more than I was willing to spend on it, and would also take time away from things I didn't want it to take time away from, because none of them know how long things actually take XD
I think there is also the factor of 18yo's brain isn't glitchy like mine so there are some things that he's not understanding, like how much overhead it actually takes for me to do enough of the basic organisation work (schedules, planning etc) to make everything run smoother.
A lot of the work we're doing now was the "wrong work" for previous economies.
That was another thing 18yo and I were talking about, I'm not sure where he pulled his numbers from but he reckons he read somewhere that 70% of people surveyed for this whatever he was looking at indicated they would be happier staying home keeping house, so they should just do that, and that way the leftover people that wanted to work would then become more "valuable" and more "in demand" and thus earn more, and the idea of having to shift the entire ass economy as well as people's brains to account/allow for that didn't occur to him.
I am glad you picked up on it!!
It is. We want affordable healthcare, but we are happy to pay sports stars a hundred million a year to hit a ball. There is a misalignment of demand.
And yeah, I know it isn't easy on TikTok, but my point is that if everyone was moving into those kinds of professions, even though there might be money in it, there isn't food and shelter in it. The skills needed to farm, build, create, make etc are still needed, but there is no one to do it. Here, there are companies pulling welders out of retirement and paying them well because there are no young people able.
Plans never go to plan. The accuracy degrades the younger the planner. :)
Some people think they are able to work through, as long as they make enough money. It is rarely the case, as while people want the money, they want it for the lifestyle it buys and those kinds of people, are affected by the lifestyle of work too. Very few just want the money.
Do you remember the push for girls to get into STEM in Australia? They outperformed the boys all the way. When they made their selections for university, not much changed, they still did nursing and teaching etc, like they had always chosen. There is the same thing with what people want to do. I know lots and lots of professional women, most would prefer to stay at home with their kids, but they actually feel that they can't, as it is like letting the team down. There is social pressure. Many men want to stay home too, but there is social pressure to be the bread winner there also.
Meanwhile eldest (after dabbling with the usual "get rich quick" schemes that people like to sell courses about) is excitedly getting into trades because there is always money in trades AND it's always useful XD
Middle child wants to do childcare (I don't remember the STEM push but there's the stereotype of the thought after that XD) and youngest currently wants to be a bartender.
And if it's any consolation there is a large number of people into backyard homesteading (there's at least one community here!) and I don't think decentralising food production is the worst idea.
LoL! As much as I'm struggling to think of exceptions there, so very generally true XD
We were talking about that too XD
What freaking team, I thought one of the initial purposes of the exercise was the ability to make that choice sans judgement.
I'm not very knowledgeable about economics lol!
However, I believe that many times governments are a good excuse... obviously many governments have their faults but, I believe, that when things go wrong just as when things go well, faults and merits should be shared among everyone.
Leaving aside the economic discourse for a moment (only because, as I said, I am poor in economics but good in philosophy), in order for the world to change for the better, everyone should do their part and work to create the best version of themselves.
Sorry for the long comment but you know that your posts awaken long reflections in me heh heh!🤗
We all play a part - even if for many of us, it is the part of an economic slave.
And I think this is the problem these days. Our "part" used to be defined by the needs of a community (small tribe etc), but now we live as individuals and define our part for ourselves, yet still expect others to service our needs as if we are in a tribe. It just doesn't work well.
I agree with you that fallacy reigns in the system.
Obviously to improve things that should be resolved first.
I don't see it as simple though lol!
It definitely isn't simple, as it involves essentially all of us changing our behavior at our detriment and cost, compared to those who don't change. Incentive rules supreme.
China probably has no way out of its demographic dilemma, but many countries facing a similar problem do have the choice of more immigration. Canada’s one of the few that’s chosen to do so. The U.S., somewhat, although not as much as we used to. Xenophobia prevents too many countries from letting people in. Japan shows the demographic problems associated with immigration policies that are way too tight.
And at some point, there will be a "rush" to push it, meaning that rather than picking the team, it will be anyone who arrives is taken, which sets up more issues.
This is very true although I don't know much about economy.
Another fact is there is no science or technology that accurately numbers or measures the population of any country or city. May I ask? When was the last time a national or city census was held? There are no metrics that can tell this is the number of people that live in this or that area except they are strategically headcounted. We were translating Rhapsody of Realities and we had info that we have approx. 7.4k living languages but after we dug deeper and travelled to those countries, we found 400 plus languages not added . Someone in Europe can't know the exact number of people in Johannesburg, South Africa so all the population metrics out up by the WHO or WEF are all false and the government of the nations must wake up to this and take responsibility for their countries.
Thank you so much for sharing sir.
Depends where a person lives, doesn't it? They are done every few years in some countries and then, the countries like Finland that have very accurate healthcare data know exactly how many people are in the country.
People in Jo-berg can't know either, since the records in some areas like the ghettos aren't well kept.
That's very true.
This might not be relevant in all country's, but I noticed that most young people today have less and kesz kids, or well most of them don't even want kids... Or if they have kids it's at a very late stage of their lives... Im sure this would also have an impact on the number of births.
I take myself for instance if I had kids the same age as my mums, those kids would be 5 to 7 years old now. Yet I'm not even married yet.
Yes, the people having less kids is an issue too, which is tied to many other factors, like people not investing into relationships that support them wanting to have kids. If you are finding relationships on Tinder, you probably aren't going to have many lasting ones.
This is common now here too. people holding off but the thing is - at some point, it gets too late, it is too much disruption to the lifestyle.
The solution lies in some sort of paradox. There's a need for a change in behavior for both systems, the economic and the individual. Unless there's actually something that makes take the step to make things different, the economy will go as society. The perfect self-replicating machine.
I think I've so many times that we are on stage of "progress" where we could be working less and living better, but the economy does not let us. The thought of having others live a life without having to run around for their needs is such a despicable thought.
The population in China had a decrease, but it's still over 1 billion people in that country. Let's see what else happens and if the decrease in world population brings something good.
Yes. The incentive to change and the will to create the incentives for change.
The number in China will be less important in the coming years, than the demographic of the population. It is going to be quite bad for them, unless something is done to support the elderly.
Maybe we could see the beginning of Soylent Green. I think the Chinese have the means to do such a thing plus the palate for weird stuff. One can only wonder if they haven't started already.
The incentives for change should be something that drives human greed towards the right direction. It seems only greed matters in the short term. Anything trying to get some changes done should appeal to that.
The depopulation agenda is very real. It may take down the economies with it.
The economy as we know it - but business will go on unabated, just in possibly different sectors.
We are also having shortage of skilled workers at some specific fields, that's one of the reasons why we have got so many immigrants from neighbouring countries. They work for relatively little money as well.
Yep. Economic slavery to take advantage of those who have less possibility. THat is business...
I don't like the economic world forum's view of things because we need a higher population if we want more growth. The population decline is bad and I don't think it bodes well for the economy at all. People are living longer so we will have a ton of people who will become old and then move off the workforce. It's a downward spiral once that happens.
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It is bad for the economy in the "short" term (many decades), but at the end of the day, it will always balance to zero, one way or another. Probably with nuclear obliteration. The spiral is in swing now.
China is aging very, very rapidly. If the Chinese govt admits to a problem with demographics, it's likely to be worse in reality. This is one of the reasons why China will not dominate geopolitically in the next few decades. The biggest reason is the awful geography of China, which makes it vulnerable. China is very far from its main energy sources.
I am not so sure. China has been developing through Africa for the last 30 years, which I suspect is a way to deal with these kinds of problems. They have issues there with building healthcare and skills, but it is similar to what has happened in China over the last 60 years.
However, pretty much all countries are going to have issues with this and there ae only so many skilled immigrants to go around. This means that the countries that "pick first" and integrate well will have an advantage. The nationalist parties that are slowing immigration and integration are shooting themselves in the foot.
Globalization like China's activities in Africa depend on resources China does not currently possess like a blue water navy formidable enough to secure its lines of communication absolutely vital to it. All globalization including China's is possible due to US tax payers footing the bill for this Cold War arrangement where the US guarantees safe seaways for the capitalists and participants of Bretton woods. This system has been on the decline since the 1990s. Trump and Biden are both been investing less in global security than their predecessors.
The continents are likely to become less connected going forward.
Also, I find it unlikely that the Chinese would open to hundreds of millions of young Africans immigrants to replace their children.
They don't have to. They are setting up schools, hospitals and training in Africa. They plan on moving a lot of their production there I assume, which is what the west did with China.
If that's their plan how to achieve geopolitical dominance, I'd say it could become difficult to implement. Energy from the Middle East, production in Africa, and consumption in China. No blue water supremacy and surrounded by a chain of major islands inhabited by people deeply suspicious of them or by traditional enemies.
@tarazkp !
I first found out why many foreigners like you live in Finland!😦 I was surprised to find foreigners like you in Finland, which has a population of 5 million!
However, people in the world where I live generally tend to assume that Europe's economy will decline and the economy will be smaller than East Asia's.
I remembered that Finland was poor around the 19th century. Perhaps Europe will retreat to 19th-century levels of economy, I speculated.
On the other hand, China is now facing a new crisis because food and resources are scarce compared to population growth.
So, I guess there will be a great famine in China.
When a great famine strikes, a new crisis will come as tens of millions of Chinese will go abroad!
Why is China afraid of the US?
I suspect that Asia is going to have issues as well, as there seems to be a trend of aging population in the region and, it isn't as easy to get immigrants in to do the work.
Dear my comrade @tarazkp!
Perhaps the rate of aging in China is lower than in Europe.
There are currently 600 million slaves in China.
China will create a new economy through slaves.
The world I live in is already overflowing with Chinese immigrants.
They rule the world I live in.
The world I live in is now an economic colony of China.
The East Asian world is seeing a resurgence of Chinese-style slavery.
I am already a slave to debt!😔
I see some balance here. There are few well-paid jobs in poor countries. There is a labor shortage in rich countries. For a few more decades (before the introduction of robots in all spheres of life), rich countries will replenish the active economic population with immigrants.
Yes. Generally in industries that are poorly paid.
I didn’t know what Soylent Green is and have seen a lot of reference to it lately. That is disturbing.
Economy is going to collapse sooner or later. The most prestigious skills nowadays are steaming and dancing for TikTok.
It is a movie from the 70s.
I was reading some research that was saying that in fact is a genetic trigger of some kind, if there is famine or war and a lot of people are dying, something happen and people start to have more kids, some kind of nature way to balance things.
You raise an interesting point about population growth and its impact on climate change. It is true that a growing population can counteract efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and mitigate the effects of climate change. However, addressingx population growth alone is not a comprehensive solution. It is important to also focus on reducing our overall consumption and transitioning to renewable energy sources.
valuing and caring for the elderly is important for both moral and practical reasons, as they are a valuable part of society and have much to contribute. Finding a balance between addressing population growth and ensuring the well-being of older individuals will be crucial in tackling climate change.
I saw a similar story about China and the population problem, they bring it back to the one child policy, a guy a work is a one child from that time and confirms the reports.
We have been dealing with this in Japan for a few years. The birth rate just keeps decreasing and we have been in the negative for awhile. Some we have entire towns where all the population is over 80 and the town is disappearing as the people die off. Nursing is the most in demand job in Japan right now, I think, as a result. Japanese people don't want these jobs, so they keep bringing in Filipinos to do them. But then the old people complain that too many foreigners will destroy the country. It's causing a lot of problems and conflict.
This is short-term cost vs long-term cost, right? Too many corporations only look at short-term gains and that prevents them from making any change. Why are we still using oil, despite Exxon scientists correctly predicting as far back as the 50s that it would cause terrible climate change? Because it's easier to keep kicking that can down the road while you just focus on the short-term.
😂
You know there was a survey of young people in one of the big Japanese newspapers a few years ago, taken at public schools so it was a pretty large sample size. It asked what job do you want when you grow up. The overwhelming #1 pick was YouTuber.
Art does not produce grain, in general, but tells you where the world is going or what has it become. It told you about the bricks in the wall, the cogs in the engine...But it's also quite useful to recognize and accept reality instead of denying it.
It's either being a cog for society or being self-sufficient and that latter kind of life does not really include civilization's boons, nor much else but hunting/gathering/skinning/chopping down stuff. I'm all for knowing how to do it, first.
The for profit capitalism has lead to talent being concentrated in the highest paying stuff and energy being channeled towards risky stuff while the foundations are kind of being neglected. The dirty work we gentlemen avoid...
I was thinking the other day that it was growing quite expensive to spare the time and grow food as an individual, for example. On a not mass-producing level. It's because of centralized funding of mass production which twists the market. And because the rat races pace increases so much that you're now falling behind even if you're a regularly running rat.
Being a brick in a wall that falls apart kind of sucks.
So it's the kind of alternative that you chose that defines you.
Demand has brought us work from home, and for that, I am eternally grateful!