Lot's of people are talking about changing the rules of the powerdown once again. Lot's of talk about 4 weeks vs 13 weeks. Lot's of talk about allowing funds to be powered down instantly but being charged a fee to do so.
Why though?
Presumably, all this talk about lowering the powerdown period is to increase the token price and make Hive more hospitable to investors. Right? Because people on the platform wouldn't have biased opinions and just want things because they want them, yeah? Yeah everyone around here wants the best for everyone. Crisis averted.
Once again I'd like to point out that this topic is not at all appropriate for discussion at this time or within this context. No one should ever think that a gigantic jump from 13 weeks to 4 weeks is a good idea. That's fishtailing. We're automatically signaling to the world that we have paper hands and a system that is totally unstable and should change on a dime. That alone right there is enough to deter investors.
So many reasons.
Another reason why an instant powerdown with a fee is totally inappropriate is that it makes OWNER key security COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. If my active key gets stolen and there is a way for hackers to use the active key to instant powerdown my funds... then what the fuck is the point of the owner key to get my account back when my entire stack just got drained?
Opting out with custom time-lock smart-contracts.
Now, the obvious solution to this problem is a way to opt-out. If you want to make suggestions about how Hive should change the rules, you better also be thinking about ways to opt-out of that rule change. It seems like literally no one is doing this, so it's very hard to take these suggestions seriously. There's a reason why the people who are actually in charge of these decisions (IE the core developers) are not talking about this stuff. I'm glad the mob isn't in charge, that's for damn sure.
If we want to change anything regarding how funds are locked, then the absolute first thing we need is custom time-locks so anyone can lock their funds in any way they see fit. That way if implement the whole instant powerdown with a burn anyone who wants to opt out of that option would be able to. I personally want absolutely nothing to do instant powerdowns. I like my current time-locks right where they are.
This topic is grossly overplayed.
The price of Hive isn't going to be affected by these changes. There are so many other things we can do that will moon the price way more. First and foremost is fixing the stable coin HBD. If we actually had CDP smart contracts and the ability to mint HBD out of thin air the price of Hive would go at least x10.
I've also detailed how easy it would be to go in the opposite direction. Instead of minting HBD from the CDP loan, we could mint Hive itself from the CDP. Are you tired of never having any liquid Hive when the price pumps? No fucking problem: JUST MINT MORE and go short on Hive, dump your loan on the market and hope the price crashes after a pump just like it always does. We could be the first network ever to have a decentralized futures market and no one is talking about it. That's an x100 right there.
The solution is simple: enhance governance votes.
Wouldn't it be nice if the network could just vote on this shit instead of constantly posting about wild changes to the system? Wouldn't it be nice if the changes were slow and controlled rather than volatile and ridiculous? It's not hard.
It's not hard
I've already made the diamond-handed solutions available:
Power cooldowns are kinda cool because you get the first powerdown instantly instead of having to wait a week. Of course, in order to prevent exploits and allow this to happen, it would take 1 week for your vote power to go up after powering up. So we have to ask ourselves: what's more valuable? Having a bigger vote the second we power up, or being able to powerdown the first week instantly? I think the ability to powerdown instantly is pretty cool, but once again we don't have to force everyone on the network to do it the way we would do it. We can make it an option to pick either way. Accounts would be flagged with a binary option: does this account opt-in to power-cooldowns, or do they want to stick with the traditional way?
Tug-of-war governance voting is the real solution. Every month or so there would be a vote using HivePower. If the vote passed the powerdown period would be lowered or raised 1 week. That way the number isn't flailing wildly and it actually decided directly by the stakeholders. Adding governance votes to Hive makes Hive more valuable. Users will want more Hive when they realize they can make more decisions other than just voting for witnesses.
When would these changes even occur?
That's another thing no one seems to talk about. They sure as shit can't happen in the next hardfork 25. So many things are changing in HF25 and yet we are still talking about even more drastic changes to the system? Why? Again, totally inappropriate to talk about this stuff at the moment. We need to wait for the MASSIVE CHANGES that will occur next hardfork and then refactor from there.
Again, we're changing FOUR major consensus rules very soon. The convergent curve will be gone. Competitive curation will be gone. HBD will be capped at $1.05 up to the haircut level. The yield of HBD in the savings accounts will be greatly increased. So many changes, yet we need to talk about even more before the next hardfork is even in place? No. We really don't.
Conclusion
Plain & simple, to everyone that talks about changing the powerdown schedules: if you haven't considered ways to opt out of your new system, if you haven't considered how instant powerdowns destroy owner key security, if you haven't considered that maybe this change won't have a positive effect on the price... well it's pretty hard to take that suggestion seriously. Sorry, not sorry.
The solution to the long powerdown period is to implement DeFi on Hive via the savings accounts. The savings accounts are only locked for 3 days... and we could EASILY lower that to like 1 day if we wanted to (again, even better with custom user-defined time-locks).
There is no reason to dick around with the blogging reward pool rules. This mega-bull run has shown us that DeFi is the answer. That means high-yield AMM farms and a kickass algorithmic stable coin. I am literally in the process of doing all of this myself with my own token.
It's surprisingly simple:
- DeFi high-yield farming
- AMM trading
- Algorithmic stable coin that dirives value from overcollateralization in CDP contracts.
- Fully functioning futures market with collateralized debt positions (able to mint both the stable-coin or the governance token on demand).
- Adjustable inflation rates and cannibalistic token sinks.
- NFTs
Gonna get back to it so I can get this thing into the wild and show what a superior system it is in practice rather than in theory. I've already got the LP pools up and running an AMM trading seems to be working.
The real solution to all these problems is "democracy". We should vote on them... with stake. That's the entire point of DPOS consensus.
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I am in favor of a instant power down + fee pretty much since I found out what this place was. I have post dating back years on the topic. Instead of burning the fee, you give it back to Hive holders. I've talked about account security a lot as well. In my post about it, I pointed to the fact this would be "opt in" - if you opt out, then the feature is gone, and you can't use it. So this is simply giving people that want the ability to instantly power down a way to do so. Returned HP from speculators back into HP holders hands would dramatically raise passive rewards on everyone's Hive funds.
It never really made sense to me not to give people a choice and alienate a whole crowd of people from powering up. If you want your account security, under this model, you can have it. And the ones that want to enjoy volatility can choose to do so.
Also, having the ability of a hardware wallet would add the highest form of 2fa, physical.
On the change for the price? I'm not concerned about that. I just think this is a useful feature that will benefit long term holders greatly at the cost of short term speculators. I'm a fan of leaving the 13 weeks as is with the instant PD as an option.
Yeah I'm mostly just shilling my own ideas here.
I like the burn model and I'm even trying to create a proof-of-burn consensus algorithm.
I think at the end of the day we just have to be patient and wait for this stuff to play out.
I'm sure we'll be doing more game-theory in the future as variables change.
I imagine 3Speak is going to change the game in a lot of respects even though it exists outside of Hive consensus.
You bring up another very good a valid point about key ownership and that if hacked someone could extract those funds quickly and pay the 10% fee. Bad! very bad!
I agree that a 13 week change to a 4 week change is not going to change anyone's mind for powering up or powering down. It's still long AF and wont sway investors.
This is why I love hearing other sides of the story as there are cases I don't think about that others have such as you had pointed out the possibility of a hack and someone extracting those funds instantly.
Is that worth the risk though? The same could be said if someone hacks a bitcoin wallet and extracts the funds you need to be careful and protective of your wallet keys and funds.
Also fully support and have been yelling about this for the last two months now that we need to build more. Support NFTs Support smart contracts support DeFi etc. If anything Hive is now starting to fall behind and we should focus on development over screwing around with APR rates and blog reward rates. Blocktrades has said though they would rather outside developers work on such projects. Which that's fine we just need to get some teams together but we also need the core Hive blockchain to now support and give us the tools to make these applications easier.
Yes, it's worth it x1000 times over.
Just wait, there are going to be massive hacks within the next year as crypto moons and all of a sudden the honeypots increase in size exponentially. Hive is a place users can go to in order to avoid all fears of being hacked... even if you get hacked you can change your key, and even if the owner key gets hacked there is account recovery. Undermining owner key security and the recovery process is such a foolish short-sighted plan.
Here's what's would happen:
We undermine owner key security... a bunch of people get hacked, and we realize we fucked up and we have to change it back. This is exactly why we are rolling back the EIP in HF25. The convergent curve was idiotic. Curation mechanics were always doomed and broken. I'm just glad the powers that be actually figured that out.
Just because security isn't a big deal now doesn't mean it won't be going forward. There's going to be a point where investors are looking for the most secure places possible to store there assets, and Hive is at the top of that list with the owner key, account recovery, and proper time-locks.
Honestly very good points and thank you for taking the time to bring them up and show the other side of things. Appreciate that.
What takes hive to the next level?
As you said DeFi, NFTs, etc.
Why haven't these things been worked on. Is it a lack of Hives capabilities or too complicated for existing dev teams?
I seriously want to see development happening but it just feels like it's not at the moment. I could be wrong though and I'd love to put a team together and knock some of this out if possible. There's plenty of money in the DAO to hire on some devs and make a NFT marketplace for Hive games something like wax has or to build a DeFi platform or a better swap so it's easier to get your hands on Hive. So many things that can and should be done but personally I don't know who to vote for and what to support to get those things in motion.
Cost is a big issue. Hive people are scrappy as fuck. We don't want to bloat the nodes and make them more expensive to run. Graphene/Condenser are already a heinous clusterfuck with shit documentation. We've been spending countless work-hours just trying to clean up this spaghetti factory of hackish bullshit.
At the core of it all we just need more money and devs.
I think we are going to make huge strides during the peak of the next mega-bull run.
Hopefully Q4 of this year.
Sweet, good to know going to do my part no matter how big or small it might be as I believe in the very real capabilities of it. Thanks for all the deets Edicted
One difference between Bitcoin and Hive is the fact that with Hive you are constantly broadcasting to other users how much you own and the nature of blogging platforms means you might want to share enough about yourself that you lose the pseudonymous nature of the blockchain. This makes it way easier to hack into your account (social engineering vs. actual computer hacking) - so the longer power down period helps assuage some of those potential fears you might have using Hive as a more personal blog.
Projecting and broadcasting constantly can also be a big weakness if your product is below average.
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4-week power down is a must.
13 => 1 + 3
1 + 3 = 4
Even numbers agree.
There is commitment and medium term thinking behind locking down your Hive for 13 weeks. What is behind 4 weeks?
The flexibility to control your own stake. Tying up funds doesn't prove commitment and medium term, which are two entirely different and uncomparable attributes.
Your statement is wrong. Hence, the question is not valid.
that's true
Yup.
Funnily enough right after I peakd (sic) in on this thread I came across this gem restatement of the obvious at hand...
High-interest DeFi through savings account and a true stablecoin HBD. Incredibly valuable if we can make it happen.
Especially when we realize that all HBD is suddenly 300% over-collateralized locked as Hive. On top of that holding HBD has a massive incentive because the only way to farm the yield is for half of it to be HBD.
Suddenly we realize that a demand of 50M HBD (a very low market cap) forces $150M worth of Hive to be permanently locked. Current total market cap of Hive is $179M... so... lol.
That just made me rock hard! Lol sorry
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You playing a lot of rock/paper/scissors over there?
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!LUV
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Instant powerdown is not a good idea. As you say it makes the owner key compeletly useless with or without a tax.
I still dont have anything against trying out a 4 week powerdown for a period. It can always been reverted back to 13 weeks x)
Sure, but are you against actually getting to the 4 weeks slowly over time with governance voting?
Seems like a no-brainer to me...
Let the network legitimately decide via gov votes.
It would be optimal to let the community vote for it, yes :D
If I understood your question correct
Its actually a dicey issues, I mean decreasing the power down to 4 weeks, a lot of people are making claims that steemit is doing it and steem is still doing well and they also argued that no investor would want to lock their fund for 13 weeks, personally I love having 13 weeks. I just feel people are becoming too emotional with this stuff and many are saying the 13 weeks is why hive is still not hitting 1$ and above. Better still we need to find an equilibrium between. 13 weeks and four weeks. As for me I love having 13 weeks but then who am I? Just a tiny investor
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This is 100% the issue. The current price of the Hive token is making people say stupid shit that they would never say if we had a higher token price. Our random ass token price shouldn't have any effect on the moves we make going forward.
I would support 4 weeks if we actually had network consensus to get 4 weeks... slowly over time one week at a time. But we don't. We have loud voices making wild assumptions about macro-economics like they couldn't be wrong. It's obnoxious that so many people are focusing on the wrong things. Clearly Defi and our stable coin are way way way more important than these timelocks.
IMO the main reason the Hive price isn't doing well is that it's not on enough exchanges. Nothing to do with the 13 weeks to powerdown.
Steem has an eastern user base and is on all the eastern exchanges.
Hive has a western user base but is not on the main western exchanges (Kraken, Coinbase etc). Investors have their favourite exchanges and won't bother investing in coins that arn't on those exchanges.
Instead of tinkering endlessly with the rules of how Hive works, people need to focus on getting Hive on more exchanges.
I would agree that Hive needs more frontend outlets, but Exchanges are tier 1 in that regard.
The best outlets are dapps.
Need more builders.
Now this I agree with you 100%
I think Steem is not comparable to hive, JS has some fishy shit going on with steem, That place is basically his own money printer.
Blurt I know way lower than steem and hive but it got rekt by 4 week powerdown, Went from 100 sats to 20 in a couple weeks.
Also hive can't hit $1 IMO is the marketing, No one really is talking about hive outside of hive. Very few on twitter, The dapps don't market at all, Hive don't market at all.
Hell you search hive blockchain on YT or Google you get the stock 🤔
Also very few even on Hive itself. Nowadays the real, human interaction is rare on the Hive blockchain. The average comments per post is 2-3, and most of those comments are bot comments. To be honest, the Hive blockchain looks like a ghost town from outside in terms of social interactions. Or rather the lack of it.
Really? I heard about investors, who lock their funds even for a year. Or even for more. Of course, not on Hive. Many people on Hive lack the long term perspective. Many people want quick profits. Probably this is what holds back the Hive price from reaching $1 USD.
The people on hive are thinking from the perspective of the investor, we really don't know what an investor will think I feel it's a really dicey issue
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Many people on Hive don't have the spare money to tie up for a long time. Hive is a place where people can blog for reward primarily and not simply an investment instrument as you are suggesting it is! Not all users are middle-class, university-educated Westerners earning a good salary.
This will be probably surprising, but neither am I.
Actually I do not even earn the minimum wage in my country (Hungary).
Most days I'm confused as to why so much effort goes into building an orchard with various fruits that take time and attention to grow, while the focus seems to be placed on attracting vegetable lovers. Oh well.
Good luck with your debates everyone!
eh well that's the awesome thing about crypto...
I'm now in the process of building exactly what I want and no one else gets a say.
My way or the highway.
The crypto sphere. Bubbles within bubbles. Observing how this all evolves over time naturally might offer evidence of a multiverse. An infinite amount of possibilities all spread out in every direction and forever, mainly uninhabited by anything that can know it exists.
sounds about right
I look forward to the day we're invaded by aliens, after fearing them for so long, and discover they're friendly and actually like what we're doing here, instead of just wanting to strip our resources and move on.
Ha, it's so self-centered to think that we have anything that aliens want.
E = MC^2
Any alien race with the ability to get here already has access to infinite energy and resources.
It is. Hard not to be self-centered when everything is surrounding us, I suppose. Let's save that conversation for a better time and place though.
I Second this.
I was never an advocate for instant power downs, but I did think that the choice of a four week powerdown with a 10% fee or something like that seemed reasonable. You bring up some great alternatives. I am actually not voting on either of the proposals because I don't think that is the best use of our time right now.
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I think my proposal is a real alternative to the tax ideas or instant power down. Because the owner can decide and control everything. Would also increase chain security with the 13 week gov votes. Maybe you should look at it and give me some feedback :)
heh so much shit going on I only have time to rant and code!
basically just need custom time locks because we can proceed further on this.
if you find time to look at it and send me some vibes :) I want it to be an alternative to the fee discussion we have. Because I believe fees kill the ability to be open for cool apps.
btw. if you have your first cool game out, hit me up. Nexus wars = sexy. Also a squadron TD version would be sexy :) And yes i would be help you to balance it if you like :)
I mean it could work but when it really comes down to it we need custom timelocks first... and we also need to test them in the field before making any decisions. The time limit to recover an account is 1 month, so anyone with a 1 week powerdown is cutting into that ticking clock pretty bad.
but is free up to the owner. Could be also 100% in 13 weeks if wanted.
Everyone can decide own risk level. IMO would open the door for dapps that want to test first.
Can be also some stake 1 week to 13 weeks if people want it.
IMO dynamic is important and with 1-week doors will open more and more.
Besides this, can be also an optional multi-sig added for 1 week if wanted. So security can increased if wanted :)
and thanks you look at it :)
You make really good points many I have said myself,
I wonder if hive can have 2fa for instant powerdowns? I am not sure if that would work but an idea
I really think hive needs a consensus vote, That would like you said add one more value to holding HP.
All current implementations of 2FA are extremely centralized.
You'd basically have to pick another account you trust to give you permission to insta-powerdown.
Basically some kind of implementation of Multi-Sig.
Again, the logistics are such that we'd need to let users opt out of this as well.
As many users wouldn't want to allow another account to tell them if they can power down or not.
Yeah I agree, That's why I wasn't sure how it would work. Could 2fa be implemented on chain and you need like a certain key to change? Or maybe instant power down can be linked to a IP?
I do think your right people should be able to opt out.
They way it is now makes sense to me, and I haven't heard a reason for change that makes changing things seem worthwhile.
Indeed there is a lot of friction and overhead cost when changing the system.
People on Bitcoin who want to change the system get told to sit down and shut up immediately,
and for good reason.
Typical juicy edited post. I would pay to have a 4 hours drink with you m8.
As a marketing guy, I would say that the Hive issue is the typical crypto-ignorance to reach new audiences.
The "normal" people, the normies ... they are 90% of the population.
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Well said
Great point about instant powerdowns being really bad if you keys got hacked. And making it expensive to do a powerdown doesn't help that at all.
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Seems like we have been talking aboutHF 25 for awhile now. When is it actually going to hit?
I don't really see any need for a faster powerdown time. I'd favor bringing more Defi to Hive.
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Sometime in the summer I think.
These things always get pushed back so speculation is pointless.
I have heard talk of the testnet being up and running though so you never know.
End of June is the targeted date.
Thanks for providing an alternative insight into what’s happening around the power down conversation. I have held off voting on this because I wanted to do some due diligence and give myself time to think about the ins and outs. Reading this post and all the comments from top to bottom has given me some of that so yes! Thank you!
I’m leaning towards another use case for our Hive Power. We need to continue giving people reasons to PowerUP so baking in more functionality makes complete sense. Having a on going tug-war system to use the power of DPOS to decide the amount of power down is a cool idea and gives another real value case for PoweringUP in the first place.
PoweringUP has always been a way to signal ownership of the blockchain to the community... but adding more powers to that ownership would go a long ways to increasing Hives market value.
I don’t think having anything less than 4 weeks power down makes sense from a security standpoint (and can we please get some 2FA already?) ...and I am against an instant power down I think... If someone knowingly PoweredUP their Hive then what’s the point if they can immediately power it down?
Yes... we could have fees for an insta Power Down buuuut why add another of complexity when it’s not needed. People who want to invest in and out of Hive can singnal that BY NOT POWERING UP THEIR HIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE. The signal is important to. It shows us as Hive community members who’s thinking like a short term tenant and who’s thinking like a long term owner.
We need more owners. We need steady growth in order to attract business, development, and REAL INVESTORS. We should never cater to speculators. Bad money always drives out good money... this isn’t doing anything to attract sound investment.
Let’s move away from all the short term thinking (all the hype) and start building for real. The sooner we do this the sooner Hive goes above $1. And the sooner we will be having more intelligent conversations about the future of Hive within the larger context.
layer of complexity
💥 Boom !🔥
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I enjoyed reading that as always and got a different perspective from you to consider as always, but the key security issue I feel is a red herring that worries a lot of people but it shouldn't, it should merely be a consideration.
I could lose any security credentials to any financial instrument I own and lose everything instantly so I'm not sure why Hive insists on being different unless there is a lack of confidence in the system.
The problem with being 'put off' is that 'the masses' are always being put off, and if the objective of DPOS is simply that the more wealth = more power then Crypto is screwed as it offers ZERO governance difference to the existing model. All that happens here is that most of the big stakeholders use DPOS to do whats right to protect that stake.
As for the price of Hive, don't care about it as much as I do about the flexibility of shorter power down times. Its much more about ME having control over MY funds that is the crux of the matter.
Anyway, we carry on...
Best wishes fella and thanks for another thought-provoking post :-)
There are some huge differences.
When billionaires acquire more wealth and build value, what happens?
The central banks get rich because they control the underlying currency.
When Hive whales stack as much as possible what happens?
Everyone gets rich because everyone has ownership of the network.
An even bigger differnce to consider is that crypto is digital and opt in.
Therefore if Hive becomes corrupt anyone can break away and create a better model.
This is also impossible in the land of the free, home of the brave.
Digital landscape is infinite, while physical borders are not.
And yet even another thing to consider after that is corruption means token selling.
When whales exploit the system for personal gain they are dumping coins on the market.
This is an automatic checks & balances system where corrupt individuals lose influence over time.
Our methods of decentralization are working even better than the top chains.
This is why I like you! You give me new perspectives and things to think about all the time. I will go back under my rock and digest. Thank you :-)
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I know that many (including me) at some point may need some of the money we have in HP, but to reduce it to an instant shutdown would be fatal, it would leave those with large amounts of HP very exposed and targeted, and in the long run the hive network would suffer many attacks and lose confidence.
I think 4 weeks is fine, as it is balanced,
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4 weeks seems to be working for the other communities around here.
Adjustable power downs, I’ve been saying that every time I see someone mention lowering the power down to a specific amount of time. Choose your own security level, choose your own yield (if that’s part of the deal).
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ha, yeah that would be pretty nice.
then we need to argue over yield curves.
But at the same time this is just an advanced version of my idea:
Custom user-defined time-locks.
Except you've added custom yield curves on top of it.
kinda cool.
I buy your token! Everything I do is having a constant 5 hive powerdown weekly so I always have a little liquid hive. All other assets stay in the ecosystem, cub included Splinterlands included. I dont need the hive I make so I invest it in the ecosystem locking value is important. So I will buy your token. As for powerdown times I think everybody should be able to vote on such thing in the way you described.
And I think its cool that users cant just dump all their hive on the exchanges when its spiking.
You want enough liquid HIVE? Save up :)
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Very good points. Do you have a date for your project to be released? I know that it is in the early stages, but I am certain that you have many interested parties eagerly awaiting its release.
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There's no way to measure how long this might take.
On a very real level I have no idea how much work there is left to be done.
Or how much energy I'll have to actually complete it.
Ok, I will not ask wen. I will just wait for your official announcement.
Interesante información sobre el apagado voy esperar el veredicto.
Kuyakin kau bisa
Maybe because I see my Hive Power as a machine that will give me more influence on the chain, maybe because I see my Hive power giving me more reoccurring Hive tokens the bigger it gets, maybe because I don't see myself powering down has made me ignore the talk over power down.
The current system favors me, it might not favor the next person that's okay.
A simple scenario I always think is why not keep your Hive liquid if you are planning to power down in the future, the 4 weeks is not going to give you immediate access to your funds if having immediate access is the goal.
I say just keep some liquid Hive.
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I have a q tho.
In case we somehow agree on CDP contracts, would it change the reward system?
To be more concrete, what would happen with post payouts? The author would "only" receive HP, where's HBD excluded?