Blocktrades Proposed Consensus Changes

in LeoFinance4 years ago

community consensus.jpg

Five days ago @blocktrades issued an announcement on what they are working on in terms of the next hardfork 25

https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@blocktrades/roadmap-for-hive-related-work-by-blocktrades-in-the-next-6-months

The current plan is to schedule hardfork 25 for around 6 months from now (mainly to avoid requiring exchanges from having too upgrade too soon after the last hardfork). The protocol changes planned for hardfork 25 are expected to be rather easy changes and will likely be coded much sooner than 6 months from now.

This is always something to be mindful of.

Even though we can write the code changes quickly and put them on the testnet, we can't implement them quickly. Everyone knows how much of a pain it is for exchanges to be down for days while they reconfigure their nodes so that wallets can be reenabled. Every hardfork requires a certain overhead cost in this respect.

If I recall correctly, this is one of the advantages Koinos is trying to bring to the table. That network theoretically will be able to upgrade on the fly without having to deal with all the hardcore consensus issues that most chains face when upgrading.

The changes planned for the hardfork are NOT required in order to execute on our other planned changes to the Hive ecosystem: this means we can make many important and useful changes to Hive before the next hardfork.

Tokens still on hold.

The only potential change we might conceivably make to the blockchain rules in hardfork 25 that wouldn’t necessarily be easy would be enabling HMTs (mainly because the HMT code hasn’t been tested well yet and would likely need improvements prior to release).

At this point, we haven’t made any decision about whether or not to enable HMTs, because we think there’s a reasonable chance that we can do something more useful in the way of tokenization at the 2nd layer. In short, the topic needs more research, and will be discussed in depth in a later post, after we’ve fully explored the options.

In this context, if I'm reading this correctly, "second layer" simply means "centralized shit tokens like HiveEngine" running on a single server. Of course as a LEO whale I have to walk on eggshells with that statement. Still, it will be interesting to see what they can do short of witnesses confirming token operations on layer 1.

concur consensus.jpg

Governance changes

  • Vote expiration
    After one year votes will expire if that account has cast no votes within the last 12 months.

Whenever a user sets a voting proxy, or vote/unvotes a witness or a proposal, this last governance action time will be updated to the current time. If a year passes without a governance action by the account, the account’s votes for witnesses and proposals will be canceled, and any proxying of the account will be reset.

I would have been way more aggressive with this one, but it's nice to see @blocktrades employing some restraint. Personally I'd like to see a 10% vote decay per month rather than having to wait an entire year for votes to get canceled. That being said, this is a clear step in the right direction, and if it works out well then perhaps we can revisit the idea later.


Change 5 min vote window

Currently, voting earlier than 5 minutes after a post is published results in less curation rewards for the voter. This led to the rise of auto-vote bots that vote at or near the end of this 5 minute window, severely disadvantaging manual voters.

With this change, there will no longer be a penalty for early voting of a post/comment. Furthermore, there will be no advantage to voting earlier than anyone else who votes within the new longer time period.

Now this is a great change for the network. LEO got rid of this mechanic entirely and it has been a great success. This solution is a nice compromise. I like it.

Diversification consensus community.jpg

How long should the new window be? I’d argue for somewhere between 2 hours and 24 hours at most.

Honestly anything within that range would be fine. 24 hours would almost be as if the mechanic didn't exist (like LEO) while 2 hours would give plenty of time for the vast majority of users to vote, while those that lagged behind would have their curation leeched by the frontrunning group. Even 1 hour would be fine.

I think if there's one thing that this all points to: it's that curation was a fun little mechanic that failed miserably and now it is slowly being phased out. It was exploited into the ground by bots and vote buying, and that's fine. Now it dies a slow death. Sorted.

What we need to remember is the reason why curation existed in the first place: to incentivize big accounts to upvote other people and decentralize the network. As we see on LEO, a simple kickback to the curator is all you need.

There's no point to this whole whoever-votes-first-gets-more-money nonsense... in fact the old way seems to be extremely counterproductive. Yet another great change that requires very little effort in the development category.

The above means that “Smart” auto-vote bots will likely begin trailing successful manual curators by voting near the end of the 2 hour period in an attempt to maximize their rewards. On the whole, this incentive seems beneficial, since it should lead to good manual curation being the guiding force for how the bots vote as well.

Interesting theory...

Personally I think it gimps bots so hard that they may hardly be worth it. All those who voted within the 2 hour window will get an equal share of the curation, greatly diluting the exploits of bots that vote at exactly the right time programmatically. It then becomes a guessing game of which whales are going to vote which posts after the 2 hours window. I guess we'll see how it works out. Should be interesting.

And that's it!

The rest of the @blocktrades post is all about non-consensus changes.

These are changes that can be made without a hardfork, and often don’t require everyone to upgrade their node. Changes of this type include: 1) speed and memory optimizations, 2) minor bug fixes, 3) addition and changes to API functionality. They are also usually not very controversial, because they don’t affect governance.

So it's basically a bunch of boring stuff that you don't care about but I do because I'm trying to build dapps here.

Conclusion

@blocktrades is still pumping out a lot of work. Sure, I've talked a lot of shit from time to time, but where would we be without @blocktrades? Hive might not even exist and we'd still be begging Sun for our network back, messing around on Blurt, or some other patchwork fork.

Remember that the next time someone claims this network is broken and needs to be fixed with "XYZ". Yeah? Go fix it, cause saying things is a million times easier than actually doing it. You don't see devs around here whining that everything is bust, they just keep their heads down and keep grinding out code. Good thing too, or we actually would be doomed if the people around here actually building things gave up based on what the price-action was at the time.

In any case I'd say things are looking pretty up and we're headed in the right direction as we enter into the next mega bubble year. It's easy to get impatient and lose sight of the long term, but every time a year ticks by definite strides have been made. I assume these developments will continue and even get stronger as the network expands. Persistence is key, and this community is nothing but hunkered down during times of great adversity.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Sort:  

Sadly though, there was no mention of reducing the powerdown time to 4 weeks which I think is tantamount for the chain to be attractive to new investment.

I like the 13 week powerdown, and I think if anyone wants that changed we should just create a sliding scale that we can vote on.

For example, every month the network could vote on whether they want to raise or lower the powerdown period by 1 week (with a minimum of 4 weeks). There's no reason why the network shouldn't be able to vote and change the powerdown period over time.

For some context, from what I have seen many of those "complaining about things" aren't necessarily doing so because they like to complain, they are doing so with hopes that someone that has the technical ability, position, and resources to actually make changes will consider their input. Subtle yet important difference.

Yeah, but they are also doing so with zero technical knowledge of the platform and the self-righteous attitude that their 'solution' comes with zero drawbacks and no chance of backfiring. The vast majority of "solutions" I see posed would backfire heinously, which is exactly why devs that actually know how this place works don't even consider the ideas. I must admit I was quite guilty of this when I started posting in December 2017. I proposed tons of bad ideas to "fix" things that made no sense because I had no idea how this network actually operated.

That's true though, and while we can propose something that doesn't have to be accepted or even possible to implement, maybe it'll give an idea to those who know what they're doing.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

indeed! I wish we had some sort of pinned message where there would be a list for proposed changes, i.e. a to-do list

That's what I thought HIVE Improvements was for. :-/
https://hive.blog/trending/hive-102930

Looks like some people are trying though.

yes, but still posts come and go there. I feel it would be beneficial if the community as a whole would have some sort of overview of what's going on

yes, but still posts come and go there. I feel it would be beneficial if the community as a whole would have some sort of overview of what's going on

Exactly. Let people voice their complaints. Doesn't necessariy mean they have to implement it but maybe just something for them to consider.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Seems that some nice development is taking place by blocktrades.

Not sure if that's a testament to how bad Steemit Inc. was or how good Blocktrades is... maybe a little of both.

Steemit.inc had a product that clearly wanted to sell at any cost, was too much for Ned's "leadership".

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Great things lay ahead and if we will finally release the HMTs I think that things will change for the better here on HIVE. It has passed a long time since we've seen new features that dapps could benefit of.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

What a lot of people don't realize is that what we have is already super powerful. Custom JSONs and the code that we've had since the beginning is incredibly underutilized. The problem is that no one knows how to adapt modern day services to decentralized ones. It's a completely different model that doesn't have any templates to modify.

Looking forward to the voting window changes, as I think it will see some interesting curation habits.

Happy to see that vote expiration is happening.

Should get rid of some of the dead wood and breath some new life into the Witness list.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Yeah it was extremely necessary in order to nullify everyone who showed up to blindly vote the top 30 during the hostile takeover. Those votes are still up there and I bet a lot of them will get deleted seeing as Hive was born in March.

In this context, if I'm reading this correctly, "second layer" simply means "centralized shit tokens like HiveEngine" running on a single server.

This is incorrect.

What Blocktrades is talking about is a smart contract network that will provide decentralization. It was in an earlier post.

He is well aware of the need for decentralized smart contracts. If not, why even create it, just go with H-E.

Obviously I am not sure the technical details of how it works. I would say we will know a great deal more in a month or so. It appears a lot of the backlog of coding is being caught up.

We shall see how this all progresses.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Yeah I wrote that knowing it was likely incorrect.
It will be interesting to see what shape it takes.

Theoretically we should be able to do all kinds of operations off-chain and we'd never have to bring them to the main chain unless one side tries to cheat.

It seems that blocktrades idea is that layer two is where the true value lies and only have the blockchain for verification and governance.

He appears intent on building out a host of tools for devs to use to create their own dapps tied to hive.

Like you said, many want to give crap but I feel a who lot more comfortable with blocktrades etal as compared to Ned and his dysfunction.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Layer 2 is exactly where it's at, because layer 2 is infinitely scalable.

When you think about it... it's actually incredible that blocktrades can develop just as fast (if not faster) than Steemit Inc. Realistically this should not be possible. Not sure if that's a testament to how bad Steemit Inc. was or how good Blocktrades is... maybe a little of both.

I hope (and believe) we're far faster, considering we've got 12 programmers working on hived and hivemind, and they generally had an average of around 4 programmers or less working on those code bases, from what I recall. And our top programmers also have far more experience.

Oh, and we've also got dedicated programmers creating tests for the code (that's two more people), whereas their few core devs were also doing all the testing.

Nice, especially considering that there are more devs outside of blocktrades working on the chain.

considering we've got 12 programmers working on hived and hivemind, and they generally had an average of around 4 programmers or less working on those code bases, from what I recall.

This is something that more people should know, and to be proud of. As user i'm more confident about Hive knowing this.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Wow that is ridiculous.
Fuck Ned lol.

I thought we wanted to fuck Justin Sun.

Can we please get clarification on who we are to fuck?

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Thanks for your work @blocktrades!

Layer 2 is exactly where it's at, because layer 2 is infinitely scalable.

Without a doubt. Use blockchain for immutability and put the rest on the second layer.

When you think about it... it's actually incredible that blocktrades can develop just as fast (if not faster) than Steemit Inc.

Dan N. has a plan and sticks to it. From what I read about Ned, he was all over the place. Listening to the developers' call, it seems he delegates aspects of the project to his team, and lets them do their thing.

Right now, it seems we are in clean up what was not done mode with the code. After that, we will likely see rapid advancement compared to what we witnessed in the past with Steemit Inc.

But as you said, it might be due to the bar being low.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Can't wait for these changes to come!

There's a lot to unpack here. I understand I believe the main points as Hive is a very technologically advanced blockchain, which is being improved from the code up and hardware changes, and it takes time, but it is already supporting a robust 2nd layer, the limits on which are only the vision and creativity of the founders of those second layer projects. The second layer is dependent upone and benefits greatly from the first layer. I think these ideas and kudos are timely as people are disenchanted with price and see it as the final arbitrator of value.

I am more interested in how the users will adapt to that 5 minute voting window though

I look forward to seeing how the vote changes affect the bots. This Delegated Proof of Brain bullshit is really turning me off of Hive.

The government voting thing is VERY interesting to me! I like the idea of your 10% decay per month. I feel like it would make for more active witnesses, campaigning to keep your votes. And that includes finding ways to keep you on the platform.

It doesnt affect the bots, but it won't make them snipe away more portions of the curation rewards like it presently is anymore...

Lol Dpos is one of the best things happening on Hive

Worst thing. Unless your account is worth over 10k USD it's just idiots chasing pennies.

Loading...

year. It's easy to get impatient and lose sight of the long term.

Long term vision is key

 4 years ago  Reveal Comment

Interestingly enough, it's the non-consensus changes that are the most applicable to user experience. Every time blocktrades makes it cheaper and easier for us to build on the network, that's a big win for everyone.

The consensus changes are just small modifications as we tweek the network into the correct direction.

Again, it's not the hardforks that are going to make huge leaps and bounds in terms of value to the network... it's the dapps built on the network. HF25 supports other devs running their dapps.

That's not for users.
Masses won't come here to build anything except their networks and contacts list. Until this place can really do social it's going to be niche indefinitely.

I agree. People want to get on with their friends and not be penalized for upvoting them in small quantitites.

It's really that simple: photography people with other photography people, finance people with finance people, techies with techies, etc., etc.

And that's the basis of curation too, or how do I curate a cooking article if I know nothing about cooking?

"Communities" in the real world of social networks are extremely small in general, and that's what people want.

I'll bet most would say, "Why do I want to be on HIVE if my friends aren't there?"

And when you tell them they have to pay to get on, and then they only get a small percentage of the rewards that the big posts get because their upvote is so small, I'll bet the first thing out of their mouth is: "Do I look stupid?"

Loading...

Sure, and the web isn't for users. The whole web failed because it isn't for users? Or did it get to where it is by being a space for people to build things for users?

Networks and contact list? What does any of that have to do with Splinterlands, dCity, Rising Star, Rabona, Cryptobrewmaster, etc

If there's really a big demand for a decentralized address book, then it can be created on Hive. So far, I haven't seen much appetite for it

You're missing the point of contact lists.
Also as I said this is a niche. Your examples are tiny communities. Even Splinterlands is a micro system compared to the world of card gaming that it caters to.
Dedicated people pursuing rewards will always exist.

Masses however want an already finished product and content to consume. The rewards clearly hasn't enticed them over here. In fact imo the connectivity won't save this chain. CONTENT IS KING and there's just not enough here to retain a stream of new users while they (MAYBE) take a step into the abyss to play with the tokens.

That's why keeping users on Hive is so crucial. Just thinking that tools for builders is all it takes for 'token moon' is ludicrous. Those dapps need consumers/audience. That's Hive's fundamental flaw. User attraction and retention.

Every crypto is niche by definition of decentralization. We are building communities here, and communities don't have to be gigantic to build value. This isn't Facebook where the business model is to extract $10 a year from a billion users. "Social" is itself a niche, so I'm not 100% sure where you're going with that, or why we'd need it to be successful. A single popular dapp could send any crypto to the moon.

Well that's the difference. You're thinking of price. I'm thinking of why users would want to onboard their friends. Social on internet isn't a niche either. It's the standard. I would be interested in your reasoning for that view? Show me which platforms dominate, that don't have connectivity as their fundamental?

I do agree that crypto/blockchain is a niche and that's my point. It will remain that because it's just too basic.

Interesting point to make considering all social media platforms are actively engaging in mass censorship and breaking connectivity.

There are no platforms I can compare Hive to.
Hive is completely unique.

Steem? Blurt? Golos? Whaleshares?
I don't see the splinter communities accomplishing much.

Comparing Hive to Facebook or Twitter or TikTok is like comparing Windows to a calculator app. Hive is not social media. Some of the frontends on Hive vaguely resemble social media. Any centralized service in existence could connect to Hive to give their users access to the currency.

The value proposition of Hive has nothing to do with social media. This network could pivot in an instant away from that model if it suited us. Every one of these networks only has so much bandwidth (very little at that). They are all niche, and they all will remain so until we develop some pretty insane second layer solution and interoperability modules. At which point... is it really even Hive anymore if 99.9% of the transactions are off-chain and/or connecting to some other service?

No but you said social is a niche. Deflecting the point into censorship doesn't make your point valid. That's another point entirely.

I'm also not asking you to compare Hive to other platforms. That's why I keep repeating that it's a niche because it hasn't shown any ability to grab a significant userbase.

My point on social is that if Hive wasn't leaking users into discord in order to be social then onboarding might not be so poor. Only devoted money chasers are ok with that type of solution to stay connected.

Masses expect it all ready.
Parler is an example.

New dog. Same tricks = Growth.

Edit: you agree they Hive isn't social so then that's the issue. People are actively wanting to steal users from the main socials when there's no real connectivity here.

Do you not see the as completely broken (and even pointless)?

Token has no hope if builders don't have an audience to cater to. CONTENT to a local town hall Vs content to a full stadium.

I disagree a bit.

With that many forks, hive/steem had in the past, it shows it can adapt if wanted.

So I think the option should always be " onboard everyone that wants + increase things if needed".

So it can be the tech behind big future social media apps.

 4 years ago  Reveal Comment