Hi guys, I'm currently testing new service I've made, called Liquid Hive Power - feel free to join in. Check out the post to learn more :)
So, I've noticed lately that STEEM community is discussing lowering the power-down period to... 1 week! You can read more about it here: https://steempeak.com/hive-139293/@steemingcurators/steem-blockchain-powerdown-1-week and I think they're right.
13 weeks (91 days, 3 months) power-down period on HIVE is way to long for any reasonable crypto investor. It's not only that everything can happen during 3 months in crypto world but the fact, that money needs to move. It's obvious when you look at the booming ETH network where Uniswap alone made over $1.8 billion volume in last 24h hours 😳 Locking your money for 3 months is simply stupid and it's easy to see that investors think the same when you look at HIVE declining price and market cap (way out of top 100 currently).
In fact, we could go even further and remove vote value dependency on Hive Power entirely: HP would be needed only for RC / witness votes / proposal votes (for governance in general) and your vote value could be dependent on HP plus 5-day average of your liquid HIVE holding.
Imagine how much liquidity and trading volume it would bring - also it would be awesome to buy and hold HIVE, knowing that it has direct impact on your vote value without being locked for 3 months (hope I'm not missing something here ;)
Still, HIVE is pretty awesome because we can easily build an app that would simulate it. In fact, it's already done :D
In short: LHP tokens on HIVE-Engine. You buy them, you get the HP delegation, 1 LHP = 1 HP delegated. No need to stake them, just hold (have them in your HIVE-Engine wallet).
If you sell the tokens, the delegation is lowered by the amount of the tokens you sold. Placing sell offer does not lower / remove the delegation, only when someone actually buys them from you.
After you buy them, the max waiting time for delegation is 5 days - because first the HP need to return from undelegation lock-time. But most of the time it should be much quicker (10 seconds) as I plan to keep a HP reserve.
The cool thing is that the liquid hive power (LHP token) price will be regulated by users as they can freely trade the tokens. Currently the service is selling the LHP tokens for 1.01 HIVE and buying them back for 0.99 HIVE to provide basic liquidity but of course users are free to trade them at any price.
Few technical details:
- you need to have at least 1 LHP token to receive the delegation as there's a minimum value of HP that can be delegated (tried to delegate 0.5 HP and failed)
- if you hold LHP, your delegation will grow over time (becasue of HIVE inflation). There's no expiration date, the delegation is valid as long as you don't sell the tokens.
- if you lowered your delegation by selling tokens, next additional delegation (when you buy the tokens again) can be received after 24 hours (from the moment of selling) to prevent abusive users sending all HP to undelegate lock-time period. Further mechanics like this might be needed in the future (blacklist etc.)
- if there are token holders waiting for delegation because of lack of available HP, they are sorted by waiting time - oldest delegation requests are filled first
- the delegation is provided by @lhp.app (liquid hive power app)
- you can check amount of HP available for instant delegation at @lhp.app profile page (profile description at the top)
The service is in an early stage so expect glitches but basically you can already buy LHP and receive delegation in few seconds :) Please let me know here (discord) if you have any problems with the service.
https://leodex.io/market/LHP
https://hive-engine.com/?p=market&t=LHP
You can also just send HIVE to @swap.app with memo: LHP - it will buy the LHP tokens for you and send them to your account (it works like this with any other HE token).
I guess all it will bring is decline in hive value and decrease in in overall interest in hive.
There was an idea behind power down period - I guess to prevent hive dumping.
What is more, I think we can agree that DeFi tokens and hive do not go together. I look forward to wLeo launch, but I'm pessimistic about whole thing.
If someone wants to dump, he can do it, it just takes longer time to do so. All 13-week lock time period accomplishes is additional reason not to buy and power-up.
It's still very early, ETH fees + low interest in HIVE in general come together tho ;)
I agree - I'm waiting for the third day for the Gas price to fall - I'm going to add some liquidity but I don't want to pay huge commissions - I'll do it as soon as the commissions go down!
LOl 3.75 is low? lol what are they smoking over there on ETH
They aren't smoking, it is the fallout from all the gas they are burning.
Posted Using LeoFinance
LOL 😂
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
LOL 😂
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
They smoke expensive cigars, setting fire to $ 100 bills - which we pay them for their commissions!)
We're all here to escape PayPal. But let's be honest now, it's not working out so well in ETH land.
Lol absolutely in fact PayPal would be cheaper on some transactions! I think other chains will have to come onboard and help ETH and take some of this DEFI activity on to other chains
I'm sure other chains would looooove to help out with all that nasty excess volume on ETH. One big happy family! ;)
:)
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Ha Ha :0
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Yesterday, I burned 25$ on gas fees, assuming the transaction would go through. What did I know... it didn't go through as the gas limit was reached(!), no successful transaction, but I do did burn some ETH.#fml
Other chains at the top don't have that. If Hive is trying to prevent dumping, it shouldn't be based on that...
A solid platform doesn't need “tricks” to prevent people from dumping. Nobody has said, geeze I'm glad my investment is locked up this tight. It must be building community confidence.
Totally this.
It's interesting how we all lost an understanding or the reason behind the power down long period. Me too. I don't really remember why it was designed that way.
I don't think it's worth remembering why it was designed that way, in part because I think some of the original reasons for it were questionable at best.
But it does serve some useful functions.
One that comes to mind right away is it discourages exchanges from voting with custodial stake (although it clearly didn't discourage enough in the case of Steem, as exchanges were apparently persuaded that the rules would be changed afterwards to prevent them from suffering any consequences).
It also favors giving long term investors more say over governance decisions than it does speculators. On the whole, I think that is probably beneficial.
It's also saved a lot of people from losing all their funds when they've leaked their keys.
This. I'd say a month is the bare minimum time if it is ever changed.
Would you mind looking at the idea behind this post
https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@jocieprosza/bootstrapping-whive-liquidity-via-provisory-solution
But it DOESN'T discourage exchanges from voting, does it?
The exchanges first need to give a damn about Hive to even care to stake. They do not.
Proof of point being steem with Binance and huobi having so little interest in Steem staking that they had 0 clue they were locking up customer funds for so long. .
Another counter to the silly notion: "It deters exchanges from voting thus its justified" is the fact that you HAD to add the 30 day waiting period.
That is a far better detterant and guess what... the justification for locking up funds for 3 months over the fear of exchange voting after this is implemented goes out the window completely.
Another poor justification. You're doing this at the price of completely alienating non investors. Why do this when you can have both?
You can "easily" adjust the governance model so those that stake for longer have more say. You can even adjust the reward system to encourage it.
There is simply nothing that justifies the 3 month powerdown time that cannot be replaced with a smarter system.
I feel that all it stems from is fear that people will sell and that's the stupidest position to take.
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My opinion is that 3 months or 1 month will have little impact, if any, on the price of Hive (which seems to be what most people are concerned about). I think there's much more important things to focus on. But it is certainly easy to change, from a technical perspective, so if you convince stakeholders that it's a good change, it can happen. But please don't waste your rhetorical efforts on me, as I see the tradeoffs as being about equal between the two choices.
There is no "trade off" when you fix the faults another way by introducing new features, eg. 30 day wait period.
This could potentially make HIVE more interesting to investors while current powerdown time is a deterrent.
Would it affect the price? Answer to that question neither of us knows. Maybe with a good ad campaign it would. Maybe. Maybe nothing would in the time of the Defi hype.
What the fuck are you talking about?
If this comment was in support of what i said:
If it wasnt:
Jesus. lol
Ethereum fees have been at ATH for the last few days.
I would love to know why you are pessimistic.
Posted Using LeoFinance
It's simple Hive has greater field of usage yet whive didn't succeed at any level. Of course liquid Hive would have a very interesting use option - to bypass the power down rules, but that's all. WLeo might cause some commotion though, thanks to both planned incentives and offered liquidity.
I disagree, I am interested in Hive because of the long term power down, to prevent market volatility and deceptive money practices from traders. There is more than enough Liquid Hive already in circulation, I guess you didn't have time to do research on the supply of Hive on major exchanges though and this must be just a quick thought.
Interesting reflection, thanks for sharing.
I would say that one week is far too short and even 4 weeks may be too. By staking your HIVE you gain from curation and to have a say in the witnesses. I think it is valid to have to tie the funds up for a while. The initial 2 year period was too long, but I think 13 weeks is a reasonable compromise. I am not a big investor and their attitude is like to be different to mine. I would vote to keep it as it is for now.
Giving other options to increase your vote is a good alternative.
Remember the good old days of 2 year power downs? I'd be in favor of shorter power downs for sure, but probably not 1 week just yet. With the new change of it taking a month for your stake to start taking a weight in governance voting from HF24, I think it should follow the same pattern and take a month to get out.
Yep, that would be a great upgrade! I would be much more eager to power-up with 1 month power-down.
A month is the bare minimum. On Steem it does not make any difference because chain governance over there is completely centralized to begin with.
Yes. 13 weeks is a long time! I agree, money needs to move.
I wanna grow and add value, so I am stacking everything.
But your idea sounds amazing! That would be an interesting way of doing stuff instead of stacking :D
Stacking/locking it up does provide a secruity feature tho :D
True, but BTC or ETH does not have this and it doesn't stop them from being at the top ;)
Trueee hehe, that was also the only benefit I could think of xD
So in essence, if I buy 500LHP, I will receive 500HP delegation that I can sell back to the market whenever?
That appears to be the gist of it.
You get the HP delegation to use without tying your HIVE up for 13 weeks.
Or risking to lock up your HIVE for more than 13 weeks if there are no buyers :).
Yes, exactly :) As long as there are buy offers.
Interesting!!!
That is it in one sentence.
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I wish I could upvote 1000% on this post. Changes happen daily in crypto. Yam 🍠 would become yam yam 🍠 the next day. In 3 months yam would be dead 🍠 casserole 🥘 or something. Only few people understand...
Lol this is so true.
By design only the savvy win in crypto.
It's the railroad industry of digital.
So reward.app still works?
This is great to see. You have an issue with layer 1 and you try to solve it personally with layer 2. Keep bring amazing products to hive :).
A single week would be great to be able to moves funds. I don't plan on cashing out anytime soon, but it would be nice to have the option incase a sudden need for cash comes up.
Exactly. Also HIVE Power should be more of a governance token and the vote value should be dependent on your HIVE holdings (that can be easily sold without need to wait 3 months).
Do you think this will impact the price of HIVE? Is that your goal?
It is a concept that warrants some thought. I can see the appeal for users. Effectively, if I understand the process, you are providing all the benefits of HP for voting and curation, yet eliminating the 13 week powerdown. Thus, the funds are still considered liquid, open to use however the user decides.
Governance is not a part of the system since witness and proposal voting are done based upon owned HP, not delegated.
Not a chance, the service has way too little amount of HP to cause any price change. Maybe in the looooong term if users will use it in large volumes?
Exactly.
Yeah, so it simulates the idea proposed in the post nicely :)
It's also a way to get people to pay for LP with which money you can buy HP to delegate to your buyers and while retaining much more influence on governance than you could with your own HP alone. :)
Yep, acquired funds will be also used to increase HP (and provide liquidity on the market :).
By the way, you could sidestep the undelegation delays completely by just not delegating anything but keeping voting accounts whose votes mimic the votes of the LP token holders with the voting power used being in proportion to how many tokens they hold. Instant simulated powerdown.
That's a nice idea but it's much more complicated - I would need to calculate voting mana for each holder etc. Delegations are much more easier to manage + it's something you can see in your wallet.
That’s true.
Delegations are indeed so much easier to manage. The math would be easier if you have accounts with a fixed amount of HP and have a maximum amount of followed votes (10 per 24hrs). You would need to calculate the curation and liquid rewards as well (probably missing something). Not only for upvoting but also for downvoting.
Thought to give it a try... I wish I could code to test and play around with it, but I can't.
TOTAL POOL HP = 100% PERCENTAGE = (LP TOKENS / TOTAL POOL) * 100 VOTE WEIGHT = PERCENTAGE CURATION REWARD = PERCENTAGE LIQUID REWARD = PERCENTAGE VOTING MANA PER VOTE = (PERCENTAGE / 100)Sample:
1.000 HP = 100% PERCENTAGE = (50 LP TOKENS / 1.000) * 100 = 5% VOTE WEIGHT = 5% CURATION REWARD = 5% LIQUID REWARD = 5% VOTING MANA PER VOTE = 0.05%To add, you could incentivize a model where people can buy LP tokens that serve as shares from a specified pool. You can only add shares within X time. Whereas, the voting weight is calculated by the total amount of shares placed in an account rather than the pool size in HP.
For example, if Bob and Lisa both add 50 LP, and no one else adds LP, they both would have 50% of the pool. If the pool is 200 HP, they both doubled their power as their vote is backed by 100HP. If there are 4 more people who also add 50 LP shares, they would all have 16.67% of the pool. This means everyone would get a vote backed by 33.34 HP.
To make it all fun and games, you could simply do rounds for a period of time where everything would return (LP and followed votes would stop). Probably few people would dump LP and run some rounds with it, just for fun.
What has to be done in order for this functionality to be active on HIVE?
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It's already active :) You can just buy LHP on the hive-engine, or if you don't know how to do this, send 1 HIVE or more to @swap.app with memo:
LHP(it will buy it for you).I will give it a test, tried swap.app sending for first time with the memo, only for 2 hive, just to see how it all works.
But such delegation is no letter. I send 1hive and receive 1 hive delegation. But some LHP..
If it can be done it is a revolutionary idea and actually great for the investors who wants to take too much HP...As you said in your Writing it is a long time,13 weeks for the crypto world...Everything is too changeable...
Okay my HP transfer went, so in 5 days I will see 1.97 hive delegated to my account? or do I need to do something else?
O-kay, so I just looked and that was fast, the LHP is already delegated, so I guess all questions answered.
:D 👍 Yeah, the delegation was provided few seconds after you bought LHP, this is how it will work as long as there's HP available.
It worked pretty smooth, I still don't understand the
as long as there's HP available.part, but i'll cross that bridge when it happens I suppose.If there's no HP available at the moment, LHP buyer has to wait for delegation to happen. Max 5 days but it should be much quicker :)
Very interesting.
Only downside is the transaction fees to bring Hive to Swap.Hive and back. 2% in total! So the service is not without costs.
Plus the risk of the LHP token going down for whatever reason. E.g. you could exit scam us. The LHP are not decentralized. Not that I believe you would do it.
But I will give it a try!
You can use https://leodex.io/ or https://beeswap.dcity.io/ to cut the fee to 0.25%/0.25%. Or use @swap.app to buy LHP for a total of 0.5% fee.
Yep, sadly we don't have a way to provide this service using smart contracts on Hive.
How I can use swap.app to buy LHP? It shows me only BTC, ETH, Steem, LEO and HBD to buy with Hive.
The second paragraph :)
Maybe it would be good idea to add "Hive Engine Token" as an option? Thanks for the idea!
Hive has multi-sig transactions? Make it so that funds can't move without a majority of validators approving a transaction. Incentivize running a validator node.
I'm not that pro, but maybe this is something that HWIVE will be using :)
At least it's the idea that it should. At present it doesn't as far as I know.
Check this out:
https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@stoodkev/how-to-set-up-and-use-multisignature-accounts-on-steem-blockchain
I've been thinking about market regulated power down period and this in a way simulate it.
Depends on the token of the price.
Its a second layer solution but .. lets see how its goes.
Nice one.
Yeah, I remember discussions about burning fee for powering down faster than 13 weeks. Yet, punishing investors for just using their money seems odd. Is there any other idea for regulating it?
Interlnal market for hive power to hive. If someone want to exit fast they sell their HP for liquid hive at a price on the market.
Is this technicly possibme ... dont know :)
Your token can act like this.
That's an awesome idea. We already have internal market (DEX) on HIVE so it's sure possible. Basically buy VESTS for HIVE, and no tinkering with the power-down needed. It sounds like the best solution :D
Thanks!
Free Market solutions are the best :)
Amazing idea! Just bought some LHP ;)
👍
Voting cause of the interesting experiment, not that I'd much agree on the first couple paragraphs. :P
Cool, though! Now if only those deposit and withdrawal fees weren't so high. :/
https://leodex.io ;)
TIL!
Good idea but thanks for complicating it further for newbies. btw when we all said lower power-down period both here and on steemit, no on listened, Now that Justin is doing it HIVE is doing it. Thank you Justin at least for once.
Hive is not shortening power-down period.
NO?
maybe I am drunk
Every @cardboard project I've dabbled in has worked flawlessly. His code does not disappoint. My past experience. Just say'in.
Oh there were errors but basically it all comes down to awesome beem library provided by @holger80 :)
Why is @holger80 not a consensus witness? Vote for his witness!
With 7 days power-down period, what will prevent exchanges to use again the funds of people to vote for unpopular forks?
Next HIVE update, HF24. It's got a feature to prevent that, can't find a link at the moment.
So I'm going to buy HIVE off an external exchange to use for wLEO liquidity when it launches.
If I transferred that to my Hive account then I can't power it up to use for curation because it would take too long to power down when the time comes.
But by using that HIVE to buy LHP tokens, would I be able to use the delegated HP to curate, while being able to instantly dump them back to liquid HIVE when I need to move them?
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Yes :) As long as there are buy offers (which I will be also providing).
I have thought about it for a long time, but I think it is a good idea. @lhp.app works like a pawnshop. I deposit Hive and get Hive Power for a small fee. This is very useful for me. Thank you very much for this service.
👍
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STOPTo support your work, I also upvoted your post!
Do not miss the last post from @hivebuzz:
The current power-down period has its advantages. However, we cannot skip the fact that some people would not like to lock their funds for so long. As beneficial as it is, some might not power up because of the power-down longevity. If we can power up instantly, there should be a considerable powering down time to strike balance. In the case of losing keys, if any fund would be stolen as a result of that, it would take 7 days for the perpetrator to have his/her way except if it's a hack (Talking from the perspective of powering down). And to be candid, we've not had issues with that. If we've encountered that at some point, it's below 2%, so I would say that point isn't enough to say no to a considerable power down period.
I read some comments before dropping my opinion, so don't be confused.
Hi @cardboard
Lowering of power-down period seems interesting and may increase liquidity.
With the ability to wrap Leo to move it eth would this increased liquidity be directed in that direction?
I certainly hope so. Though I am my self not going to power down and wanna build and grow my account on content and solid interactions.
The idea behind LHP tokens is very interesting and looks an interesting alternative to leasing from dlease.
It gives flexibility to the users on the amount and time for which they want the lease.
I see no reason why it would not catch up and trade at higher value than what is proposed as a base starting value.
Yeah, hope to see a lot of LHP tokens trading :) We need the buy side (which I will also provide) so holders can always sell the tokens.
Could 2nd later tokens have this also? Like LEO?
I like the idea for liquidity alone. It would become traded a lot more, and I think that's better for the us and better for the price in the long run.
I always thought it was to prevent new users who don't know how to use blockchain from losing all their funds at once. They could reclaim their account before funds were lost.
I am beginning right now. Sounds amazing
And what if we could have voting power based solely on the 3months avarage Hive holdings and delegations? In this case only delegation would lock Hive for as long as it wouldn't be canceled.
Yep, this would be better too :) Probably delegations would need some changes so they work well with the 3 months (or shorter?) average holdings.
Also voting decay is needed.
I never bought any of the justifications for having 3 month powerdown times.
It's probably the worst feature of Hive right now.
Posted using Dapplr
晚上好，谢谢分享
Picked up 10. Need to grab some more.
Everyone have their views but I love this idea. 13 weeks is long.
This just another excellent product provided by @cardboard, which effectively circumvents the whole debate power down time. Strong work!
Bookmark
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
This looks like a nice alternative to locking up hive as hive power, plus delegations can’t be stolen, and your account has no hive yo steal. Now your hive-engine account does, so misplacing your active keys would or could result in instant liquidation.
But I still think it’s a great idea.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Does this still work?
yes :) need some time for the HP to return from undelegation period
cool idea!
Hello @cardboard
I Buy a new LHP but not receive Delegetion for @lhp.app yet
is been 3 days now
Hello, dear @cardboard.
Nine days ago I acquired 1,835,687 LHP but the HP delegation from @lhp.app stopped at 979 HP: can you fix this little problem?
Thank you very much!
!PIZZA !BEER and a huge hug!
@cardboard! I sent you a slice of $PIZZA on behalf of @amico.sports.
Learn more about $PIZZA Token at hive.pizza (1/20)
Hello did you recieve the delegation?
Yeah!
Where did you get that many LHP? :o
LOL, everything is on the BC.
Thanks, mate! 🙏
View or trade
BEER.Hey @cardboard, here is a little bit of
BEERfrom @amico.sports for you. Enjoy it!Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your
BEER.Hello man, is this still working? could you make an update or something to get people atention?
Yes, it's still working :) Not much to update, it's still the same basic idea. Currently I'm also using it to boost @reward.app vote :)
Great. I think it is a very good idea
Thanks :) hope to work on it in upcoming weeks
Hi, Mr.@cardboard!
Is this service still working? I have seen a very low volume on LeoDEX. I really hope for success of every project that is born in HIVE Chain.
Sincerely,
- EvM
I will be adding more LHP systematically, at least once daily.
Yep, I'm using about 30% of the funds for buy back, hope that over time users will build proper buy walls.