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Real Time with Bill Maher - Ep. #659: Eric Schlosser, Douglas Murray, Frank Bruni.
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Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night Series, Real Time with Bill Maher. It's exciting. It's very, well, it's Mother's Day Sunday, isn't that? Uh, yeah. Do the right thing. Pick up the phone and call your mom. Or if you're Gen Z, just go upstairs. Get the kids. They love it. I'll tell you. Uh, yeah, Mother's Day, a little different in Texas this year. It's called, if you don't go through there, you'll be in jail day. And Kristi Noem, her kids got her a lot. Everybody celebrates Mother's Day. They got her a lovely gift from a shoe store, her favorite brand, Hush Puppies. But let's get to what you came here to hear about. Stormy Daniels, this is the week in the Trump trial. We finally heard from Stormy Daniels. Trump posted, the whole world is watching. I hate to tell you, Dawn, not even your family is watching. But Stormy had a lot to get off her chest. I mean, she's serious. We heard all about her background. She grew up in Louisiana. She started dancing at the strip clubs (1/38)
at 18. Moved into adult films at 23. What in Louisiana they call the career fast track. I get Louisiana. I love Louisiana. But then we got to, you know, we had to hear about the actual sex with Donald Trump. And she said, well, it was not exactly consensual. It was unwanted. But she did not resist what most women call married sex. And now, of course, the looming question is, will Trump take the stand? And we know for sure he will not, because he said he would. That's how we know for sure he will not. But come on. Trump take the stand, he put his hand on the Bible, and he sizzled like a fajita. Here's the thing. Now, because the details from Stormy were so salacious, I mean, even the judge had to say to her, honey, TMI. You know, I mean, there's kids watching. But now Trump's team is pushing for a mistrial. Oh, and by the way, mistrial is also Trump's drag name. Oh, look. As mistrial. But you know, Trump has been cited 10 times for contempt of court, because he, you know, can't keep his (2/38)
mouth shut. And anybody else who 10 times, they would put you in jail. And I think he wants to go to jail, because it would make him a martyr. He's practically begging the judge to put him in jail. There's a switch. Lock me up. And I love this. Over on Fox News, Jesse Waters. Have you seen this guy? Interesting guy. We keep finding him over there. He said, if Trump does go to jail, he's going to work out a lot. And he'll come out ripped. You're right, I could just stop with that. But no, Jesse Waters said he's going to come out ripped with a jail bod. Oh, gosh. Fox election coverage. Your number one source for gay fan fiction. And there's a development in the presidential race I didn't see forthcoming. Bobby Kennedy. Right. So this revealed some medical news this week. He said he's fine to run. But full disclosure, a worm did eat his brain. I'm not making that up. No. I mean, not reason. This was like 15 years ago. And the worm is dead. The worm is dead, ladies and gentlemen. No (3/38)
worries about the worm. I think this says everything about the presidential race. The 70-year-old man with a worm-eaten brain is the youth candidate. And Kristi Noem now says we've got to shoot him because he has worms. All right. We've got a great show. We have Frank Bruni and Douglas Murray are here. But first up, he's a contributing writer at The Atlantic, author of the bestseller Fast Food Nation, and producer of the documentary Food, Ink, Too, which is available to stream now. Eric Schwasser, Eric. Big fan of Fast Food Nation, by the way. Love that book. How are you today? I'm good. Oh, yeah? Well, I want to ask you about, I wanted to have you here, basically, because we have a presidential election, which seems to be a lot about eggs. Yeah. This seems to be what the whole thing is turning on people. Eggs and worms. Well, I was going to ask you about that. Yeah. Well, let's go to that first, because it is on my mind. Not in my mind, I hope. But I mean, the bird flu is now in the (4/38)
milk. Could the worm, how do you get a worm in your brain? Let's just go right there. You know, you have to ask Bobby. I mean, I'm sorry that you couldn't talk to him about this when he was on your show. Maybe some bad sushi, maybe uncooked pork, but of all the Right, it is food. That's how you do it. Yeah, but of all the food borne problems we've got in the United States, worm in the brain is not in the top 5,000. We have avian influenza being spread by cows. And scientists had no idea until a few weeks ago that this influenza could even be in cows at all. How do they get from the birds to the cows? Well, that's a very good question. There are wild birds that overfly dairies. There's all this intermixture of viruses that's going on. And what's very concerning about it is right now the federal government is not allowed to go into these mega dairies that have 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 cows and test them for avian influenza. The federal government can't go onto these mega dairies and test (5/38)
the workers, many of whom are undocumented and quite fearful of if they test positive what's gonna happen to them. You have big ag and the big dairy companies preventing the CDC from investigating what could be a life-threatening illness eventually to people. And it's a perfect example of how the public health is being threatened by private interests. Yeah, I mean, of all the industries that own the government, I have to say pharmaceuticals very high up, but nobody higher than the food. Well, the food companies spend more on lobbying than the defense industry. Right. Yeah, and I feel like the big picture story from your book, your movie, is that this system really works for nobody. It's not good for the land. Right. It's certainly not good for the animals. Right. It's not good for the workers who work in the factory, even in fast food. And the farm workers. And it's not good for the consumer. It's not good for the person who eats this food. It's good for a handful of enormous (6/38)
corporations that have basically taken over our food supply in the last 40 years. That sounds crazy. That sounds conspiratorial. But when you go into a supermarket and you see thousands of different products, they're all being made by three or four different companies. And they hide behind these different brands. I mean, I just found out from this book that I read recently called Barons by Austin Freewick, a great book, that the biggest seller of coffee in the United States is a German company, not Starbucks. But they sell it under all these different brands. So you think that there's choice. But it's really an illusion of choice. And I feel like the problem at bottom is that food is too delicious. That's why people don't care, is that we're seduced by the food. The Trojan horse is in our stomach. So I mean, we have these. I mean, you mentioned it. Cigarettes are great, too, by the way. I used to smoke. I mean, I love them. But these food companies are carefully formulating these (7/38)
ultra-processed foods so that they taste really good and you want to eat them again and again and again. OK, that's a word I just came across recently from reading you. I've heard processed food. I've never heard ultra-processed. Is that something new, or is it just a word we hadn't heard before? And how is it different than just processed? It is new. So a processed food would be something like canned corn. They cook the corn. They add some salt and some water. It's in the can. You open it up. You eat it. That's just fine. An ultra-processed. That's fine? Yeah. I mean, frozen vegetables, canned vegetables, as long as they don't have all kinds of additives, that's healthy. I disagree vehemently. Well, vegetables have to be eaten fresh, or it's just shit. And corn is shit to begin with. No, but ideally, yes. But in terms of harming your health, it's not going to hurt you. What's going to hurt you? If you look at the label, and there are all these chemical names that you would never have (8/38)
in your kitchen, that's an ultra-processed food. And what they're doing is they're creating flavor additives at these factories, mainly in New Jersey, that you- Hey. Hey. No offense. There are some wonderful things that have come out of that state, but flavor additives may not be it. Trust me, there are worse smells than the food factory. I'm a native. I can say that. And in New Jersey, you can tell where you are on the New Jersey turnpike by what it smells like. Anyway, flavor additives, emulsifiers, all these artificial sweeteners that human beings have never consumed before. So we're basically guinea pigs for these chemical additives. And who knows what they're doing to our body? But now, increasingly, people are concerned that they have all kinds of bad health effects. They're giving it cancer. Obesity. Well, yes. And maybe all kinds of neurological problems, too. Right. Lots of problems. But I think there's a direct link between that, the prevalence of cancer, and the shit we eat. (9/38)
And the problem is when you eat these foods, I think, is that you're not getting nutrients. You're getting calories. So your body still wants more food, because it wants nutrients. Wants the good stuff. So you keep eating, you get fat. And here's where Ozempic comes in, which I know is the wonder drug, and we all love it. I don't see it that way. It's an enabler. It's an enabler to keep eating shitty food. It's this miracle where you can keep, or maybe you don't eat as much, but you don't have to improve the diet. So I don't think it's gonna make us healthier in the future. It might make you thinner. I don't think you're still not getting the nutrients that you should. Well, you know, we keep on creating problems with technology, and then looking for a new technology to solve them. So this ultra-processed food is absolutely linked to obesity. So people become obese, and then the pharmaceutical companies come up with a drug to help with obesity. Now, I'm not an expert on Ozempic, but I (10/38)
think that for people who are severely obese already, that what's the choice? Gastric band surgery, or terrible health problems, or taking this drug? We don't know what the long-term implications of being on this drug is gonna be, but the long-term implications of being obese are really bad. The people who probably shouldn't be injecting this drug are people who are maybe a little too vain, and are probably already slender, and wanna be even more slender. But for people who are really unhealthy because of their weight, it may be a good thing. But what we need to do is prevent children from becoming obese. And that means in schools, we need to be serving real foods, not these ultra-processed foods. Right now, in the American diet, the typical American child is getting 60 to 70% of their calories from ultra-processed food, and that's just a recipe for disaster. And also, there's no variety. You know, our diet needs variety. You know, when we were nomadic, we had a great variety. This is (11/38)
in that great book, Sapiens. He makes that great point that once we settle down and factory, well, not factory-farmed, but farmed originally, and then factory-farmed, we'd like three things. We'd cows, pigs, and chickens. So fucking sick of chickens. Right, and you know. I mean, poor chickens. You get them at breakfast, you get them at dinner, you get them, I mean, that's not good for the body. It's not good for the body. And as the co-producer of this film, and my friend Michael Pollan put it, we should be eating real food, not so much, mainly plants. And you know, the latest science is that you should be having 30 different types of plant in one week, because it's so much better to get your vitamins from real foods than to get them from supplements or additives, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So I remember at the very beginning of the COVID epidemic four years ago, the very first editorial I did here, well, I don't think it was here, it was in my backyard. That's right, because we were (12/38)
his tent home. But it was all about factory farming. It was about, look, because we thought at the time it came from the Wuhan wet market, and maybe it did. We don't know, it either came from the lab or the market. It shouldn't be a political issue, scientific issue, we still don't know. But certainly that didn't help. And my point was, as long as you keep torturing animals, we are going to be the ones to suffer. Even if you don't have compassion for animals. You're totally right. OK, so what's the future here? Because I worry that the next one is coming, or it's worse. The next one may be right now percolating in Texas, where this avian influenza was discovered in cows accidentally by a veterinarian. And you should look up the Secretary of Agriculture in Texas, who's this far right wing, conservative, I don't mind that he's conservative, conspiracy theorist who is basically blocking and trying to block the CDC from investigating this epidemic. Factory farms are a crime against nature. (13/38)
And I'm not a vegan, I'm not a vegetarian. These are sentient creatures that we're treating like industrial commodities. And Mother Nature is going to get back at us for us. All right, thank you. We needed to hear that message, I appreciate it. Great work as always, Eric. Eric Schlosser. All right, let's meet our panel. Hi guys, how are you two? All right, he is a columnist for the New York Post and bestselling author of the book, The War on the West. Douglas Murray's back with us. How you doing? And he's a contributing writer at the New York Times and author of the bestseller, The Age of Grievance. Frank Bruni, our returning champion. OK, so let's start off talking about Israel and Gaza because we finally have someone here on the show who was there. That's not something you find a lot in the media. I find a lot in the media these days. It's very hard to get into Gaza, very hard to know what's going on there. So I just want to ask you before we get to the politics of it all, because (14/38)
there's a lot of that this week, what does it look like there? Are people starving? And if they are, whose fault is that? First, I've been in Israel and Gaza for the last six months since the war began. I can't speak to whether anyone is starving. It's a bad situation in Gaza because Hamas started a war. And Israel is stuck in this very, very strange position of having to supply food to the area controlled by its enemy. And are they? Yes, they are. I mean, food trucks going through all the time. But I mean, of course the situation is terrible because the situation could end at any point if Hamas did what they've been asked to do repeatedly for six months, which is to give back the hostages. And now, you know, my view is that there's, and I've seen the conflict up close, and I still believe that, I mean, first of all, you can't just put out 80% of a fire. You have to put out the whole thing. You can't destroy 80% of Hamas. You can't not get the leader who masterminded the seventh, (15/38)
Sinwar. And that's all in Rafah. And the second thing is, you know, I don't think there's any law of war that says you can start a war, and then when you begin to lose it, you say, let's pretend we didn't start it. But that is always what Israel faces. Sure. I mean, it's very strange. A year before I was in Ukraine, I was with the Ukrainian armed forces when they were retaking land from the Russians, and nobody was saying, oh, hold on, don't win too much. Everyone was egging them on. Every Western leader gets a shot of testosterone whenever they talk about the Ukrainian armed forces. And yet, the Israelis never allowed to win. Yeah. Very strange. What do we attribute that to? Is that anti-Semitism, would you say? Why they have a set of rules for them? I mean, they truly are the chosen people. They're chosen to not win the war. I agree. Yeah. I mean, for some reason, I think anti-Semitism is one of the reasons. Whenever Israel is involved in a conflict, the whole world goes bananas. And (16/38)
you can't even have a Eurovision song contest without it becoming an Israel-Gaza thing. It's crazy. Everyone gets obsessed with this conflict. And I think one reason is, by the way, is because a lot of people, Democrats and Republicans and people of all stripes, have said for a generation, until the Palestinian-Israeli issue is solved, there won't be peace in the Middle East. As if you solve the Palestinian-Israeli issue, and then the economy of Yemen starts to boom. And then the Iranian mullahs give women rights. And the Saudis become really keen on the gays. No. It's an issue, for sure. So Biden says he's going to stop giving armaments now to Israel. What do you think about that? Is that appropriate? I don't think it's going to please anybody, do you? No, of course not. I mean, he's obviously trying to, you know, he believes famously in a two-state solution, which is Minnesota and Michigan. And he's trying to please a few hundred thousand people in America. I don't think he's going (17/38)
to please anyone. But the fact that he gave a speech on Tuesday saying that he would always defend the right of the Jewish people to defend themselves, and later that day stopped arms shipments to Israel, suggests to me that, I mean, this is a problem. You can't, it's devastating if the end of this conflict comes about in another stalemate. If there's a stalemate at the end of this, Hamas is still in control in the Gaza, the war will happen again in two years' time, and again two years after that. And on and on for the rest of our lives. Please. I don't disagree with any of that. But you were asking about the ire at Israel and the criticism of Israel. I think there's one other thing going on, which is right now there's this paradigm that people like to apply to every situation. If you have more power, you're probably in the wrong. And if you have less, you're probably in the right. If you have more affluence, you're probably in the wrong. And if you have less, you're probably in the (18/38)
right. There are situations. And skin tone. Right, there are situations to which that paradigm applies. But the problem is we apply it indiscriminately, wantonly, regardless of the circumstances. And what has been so strange to me about all of this is almost, so October 7th happens, and from October 8th forward, people are blaming Israel. There was a ceasefire in place. We're looking for one now. There was one in place. Hamas crossed the border, invaded, and the savagery, the brutality, was incredible. We have to have a conversation now about the magnitude of the retaliation, about how many civilian casualties there are, about whether this is indiscriminate. But let us not forget how this began. And so much of the conversation seems to wipe October 7th off the plate. Absolutely. Finally, I couldn't agree more. I mean, remember about 10 years ago, Boko Haram stole 300 schoolchildren in Nigeria. Bring back our girls. Everyone, bring back our girls, everywhere. Where has been the (19/38)
celebrity response, the Hollywood response, the decent people response, any reasonable person response of bring back the Jewish children? Where is it? Well, it's not a Columbia. No. Here's a bulletin from academia, yes. Columbia in New York City announced Monday they are canceling their graduation. USC also canceled commencement here in Los Angeles. Emory University in Atlanta, changing the location of its ceremony. I don't know, I guess it's that dangerous. I mean, what can I tell you? These kids are such drama queens. I mean, the student editors at the Columbia Law Review, they said that they were the ones who agitated for canceling the finals. They said because the violence of the police clearing it wasn't violent, left them irrevocably shaken. Even if you were this fragile, would you say it out loud? I mean, you would? Well, today I would because we live in a culture where if you can portray yourself as the victim and as the person who's been taken advantage of, it somehow has (20/38)
cultural and political currency. So they're just doing what they see politicians do every day. But it's not just the fragility, it's the narcissism. I mean, who the hell is so badly brought up that they honestly believe that if they holler on a corner of a campus in America, the war cabinet in Israel is gonna stop? Like maybe Benjamin Netanyahu, whatever you think of him, does not take his lead from a 19-year-old student whose parents have remortgaged the house in order to send them to college to become stupid. But they're not thinking strategically, they're not thinking tactically. They like to holler, right? This is a moment where everyone likes to holler. And the message that people get from the way our Congress behaves, look at them, is that they who shout the loudest and use the most hyperbolic language and are the most provocative win the news cycle. Say hello to Marjorie Taylor Greene. Yeah, I mean, of course. There's no bigger whiny little bitch than you know who. Those are (21/38)
your words, not mine. My words, and I said them a million times, and I'll repeat them a million times. He's the winiest little bitch that ever was. She's an emblem of our time. I'm talking about Trump, is who I prefer. He's an emblem of our time. I mean, we shouldn't overestimate the power of politicians. I don't think that the average student looks to Congress for behavior, do they? I think they get permission. I don't think they look and say, that's what I want to be like, but I think a kind of culture is set, a kind of tone is set, in which confrontation is confused with conviction, in which being provocative is confused with being bold and brave. I think that is a culture that our politicians absolutely feed. So let me read a quote from, just in case people think that we're making this up or this isn't really prevalent, but it really is. And I thought of it because I've been reading your book and your book is about grievance, the age of grievance. Okay, this is a 20-year-old UCLA (22/38)
student. When you are a part of any oppressed group, I don't know what this person's background is, I assume she is a part of some group that she sees herself as oppressed, especially people that are experiencing direct state violence, okay? Kids call everything violence, so right there you lose any credibility with me because you think everything is violence. Like being part of the Pan-African diaspora within the United States, that certainly happened in the United States, there are shameful history, which is built on enslavement and dehumanization and degradation of African peoples that does politicize you. I'm just asking, does this reflect America in 2024? Who raises a child to feel this way about the country right now? I keep saying, can we just live in the year we're living in? Not whitewash the past, but live in the present. I mean, that someone feels, you're at UCLA, who's oppressing you? Let's not... Okay? The question isn't just who raises them to feel this way, it's who (23/38)
educates them to feel this way, right? If you look at curricula in a lot of secondary schools, probably the kind of secondary school that a lot of Ivy League students have been to, if you look at the curricula at a lot of elite schools, and I teach at one of them, there is the paradigm I spoke of before. There are all of these buzzwords, and that's what produces this in part. What are the other buzzwords? You mean like... Oppressed or oppressed, colonized or colonized, victim, victimizer, everything falls into this binary, and if you can claim the top victim status, then you win. Whereas, you know, in America, and in Britain and other countries in the West, we used to celebrate heroism and achievement. I still like those, but... But there's a... And by the way, and also, I mean, I think we should also realize that some people are, you know, they used to be said in the history of warfare that people fight the last war. You know, like in Iraq, you fight Vietnam, and in Vietnam, you fight (24/38)
Korea, and so on. And it's one of the reasons why a lot of wars go wrong. I'd argue also that people are fighting the last culture war. I mean, a lot of people would just love the clarity of 1968. You know, and they honestly believe that they would be the heroes, whereas, of course, they'd just most likely be like everyone else and not particularly interested. Well, you've written recently about Alan Bloom, right? Yeah, of course. That's the late 80s, early 90s. You had a show called Politically Incorrect, right? If you go back, and I do in the book, if you go back and you look at the late 80s and the early 90s, it's the same conversation we're having now, just different words. So I was watching a video of Robert Bork the other day from, I think, the early 1990s, and he was talking about radical egalitarianism. He was inveighing against it. That's just wokeness with more syllables, right? So the more things change, the more they remain the same. Also, one of the very interesting things (25/38)
about that with Bork, Bloom, and others is that they diagnose, people diagnosed this in the 1980s, as you know, and we've known the problems that are going on, this victimhood culture. We've known this for 40 years now, and everyone's been great at diagnosing it, but we haven't solved it. We haven't reversed it. It's just got worse. Well, I mean, we have an ex-president, maybe to be a next president, who's the victim in chief, right, whose entire political currency is making himself the world's biggest victim of the deep state of those awful elites, of Democrats, of everyone, right? He won election because people saw themselves in him, and he encouraged that, and he said, I am like, I'm a symbol of your victimization. Vote for me, and it is your revenge against the people who oppress you, and he said it more bluntly than ever this cycle. He said, I am your retribution. I think those are some of the most meaningful words we've heard in a long time. And that's why I think he wants to be (26/38)
sent to jail for a night. Well, I don't know that he wants to use the jail toilet. I don't know. No, I mean, like, that's got to be in his head. We'll talk about that in a minute, but I did mention graduation. Most of the colleges are still having graduation, but it's a little different this year. Now, every year, as a custom on the show, we show the hats, you know, when kids graduate. They're some of the real ones that they have. Thanks, Mom and Dad. Hire me. On to the next adventure. This year, they're a little different. Would you like to see some of that? OK. I thought you would. I thought you would. Um, like, hide your weed, Mom and Dad. I'm coming home. I'm Gen Z, and I might possibly vote. Love to my family, death to America. Not anti-Semitic. I just hate Jews. Oh, wow. It's a very different year. Thanks for the checks, Mr. Gates. The job I haven't started yet already sucks. I quit. They said I couldn't do it, and that's why I cheated. Ready to cancel speakers in the real world (27/38)
from the river to my parents' basement. And excited to see what I'll complain about next. All right. So let's talk about, OK, I know I talk about this a lot on this show, but I have to do it again. I did it last week. I tore Merrick Garland a new asshole because, I mean, the Democrats have had four years to put Trump on trial, and it is all just going away. They blew it at every turn. Here's what's happened this week. Georgia, that one, OK, they're going to take up Trump's argument about Fannie Willis. Now, she's the prosecutor. She's having an affair with the guy she hired. I mean, it's not really relevant to the case, but they left an opening. And now that one's going to be delayed. The stolen documents one, that's never going to happen because that's a Trumpy judge down there. So it's Stormy or bust. I saw what you did there. It just comes out. I'm not trying. If this one doesn't work, and she's a bad witness, because let me show you a little video. This is when I had Stormy on in (28/38)
I mean, a porn star is used to having sex with people she does not know. That's the job. It's kind of like Stormy Bob. Bob Stormy, fuck. Action, and let's go, and we're losing the light. So I just think she's not a good witness. No, yesterday wasn't a good day for her in court. She wasn't a good witness. She has contradicted things she's said in the past. And everyone who is hanging on the hope of Stormy Daniels being the way to get Trump in prison is going to have another disappointment coming, I think. This feels to me as a kind of last chance, as you say, for the people who it's clear to a lot of the country think, let's say, that there is just an aim to make sure that Donald Trump is not on the ballot later this year. And it'll be done anyway. But as you say, to end up with a Stormy Daniels case as the main hope is, if I was the main person wanting to get Trump in prison, that would not be the thing I would want to hang this on. I worry about another aspect of her testimony, which (30/38)
is the detail, the gratuitous detail. I keep having flashbacks to Lewinsky Clinton, right? And one of the reasons I think Bill Clinton was able to survive that whole Monica Lewinsky chapter was because Ken Starr and his Republican pursuers were so lascivious and overzealous. I mean, we saw the details of the Starr Report are nothing. I mean, what she said on the witness stand is nothing compared to that. I don't think that- You know who wrote that? What? You know who wrote that? The Starr Report? Brett Kavanaugh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's the one who wrote all about- That's Justice Kavanaugh to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (31/38)
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