Jimmy!
Once again sharing an opinion I was asked to share here on PeakD. This is a collection of several of my recent discord comments on the topic, edited for flow and to try to reduce redundancy.
Based on my ongoing observations, spanning years now...
I currently feel like the company is turning this into an ultra elitist game with a ridiculously high price wall to participate. I personally do not believe the game can be successful with that model.
We've come a long way from the original stated mission of wanting to help change lives and genuinely affect/help people who are born into unfortunate economic situations (and actually being able to DO that anymore).
Allowing players to enter at an affordable point, have fun, earn, trade, sell, and grow their accounts is absolutely essential for this to succeed.
We have reached a crossroads, and the team has to decide if we want to hit the mainstream, with a large and constantly expanding and enthusiastic player base, or if we want to be an incredibly expensive and exclusive club.
Pricing is an essential ingredient in this decision.
Is it more realistic to attract and retain 10,000 players who will spend $100? Or 100 players who will spend $10,000? I’d bet all of my money on option A.
And you know what? Out of those 10,000, you very well might find the 100 who WILL spend $10,000!
Once again, the pricing of the new promo cards has caused a commotion in the community. The overwhelming consensus is that the prices are ridiculously expensive, and 99% of the players I know share this sentiment (no exaggeration).
A sentiment we have been hearing from the player base, over and over, is that the team needs to learn to 'read the room'. I'm not saying this to be negative, but rather in the hopes that... well... they learn to read the room!!!
Current pricing for the new promos:
Rare: Sanctus Vicar: 3,000 DEC/bcx. 345,000 DEC maxed.
$345 with DEC at peg, $258 at today’s trading rate (DEC at .00075)
Legendary: Elanor Bravefoot: 50,000 DEC/bcx. 550,000 DEC maxed
$555 with DEC at peg, $412.5 at today’s trading rate (DEC at .00075)
Promos are not just about making money, but about getting your community excited! Do it right and you achieve both. We are onto a third consecutive round of promos that have been very highly priced and have rubbed the majority of the community the wrong way. This is counterproductive and the opposite of what needs to be achieved with promos!!
To emphasize, promos need to:
A) generate substantial revenue
B) get your community hyped
When priced right, we achieve both. When priced too high, we achieve neither.
We're also getting into the territory of the community reaction being 'not AGAIN'... which feels like a slap in the face to many players. Again, showing disconnectedness. Not 'reading the room'. I need to be very clear, I fully believe that pricing SOME promos to be expensive, super rare and elite is a very good idea. But not ALL of them. Even a simple rotation through the rarities where the L is expensive, and a rare or common gets priced so that all players can enthusiastically participate. FIND THE BALANCE!
The fact that we have two cards in wave one, a Legendary and a Rare, BOTH priced ridiculously high, says to many players that they are not ‘feeling it out’ but rather seem to be ‘set in stone’ in their pricing patterns.
Many players have expressed that the constant over pricing is forcing them to NOT participate in sales, even though they DO want to participate. This literally prevents considerable outside revenue from entering the ecosystem when players are WANTING to bring it in!! And this happens over and over. We miss out on a LOT of additional revenue coming in, and suffer from the fallacy that higher prices generate more revenue. It also slowly pushes away our remaining community members. Many have reached out privately to express this to me.
What really bums me out is that the DAO is on the hook with these promos. The team got paid already, so generating sales revenue really does not 'matter', and if it does not go well, they won't 'learn' from this.
Which now begs the question, if the DAO is to be funding things like these promos, full card sets, etc, should the DAO have a say in said pricing?
I'm getting to the point where I won't want the DAO to spend any more $ until the team learns how to market and price appropriately.
Shifting the risk to the DAO along with past pricing history was exactly why I was very reluctant to support funding these promos. I decided to give the team my support and benefit of the doubt, in hopes that they would, finally, learn to ‘read the room’ at this critical time. At this point in time I regret my decision. I can only hope, maybe naively, that the next promo cards sold will be at a much more realistic price point and excite rather than discourage the community.
To address the popular 'let's just see what happens next' point of view... well... we have been doing that...
Zyriel. Bull market price in a deep bear. Company needs revenue badly at this point. Community voices shock and outrage at pricing and sales are subpar. Card does not sell out and substantial $ is left on the table. Ok, let's hope they learn! Then they do it AGAIN, with Baron and Halfling. Community is upset about prices but sales are ‘ok’ because they were mostly selling raffle tickets, not the cards. And now market price of these cards is WAY lower than what they were sold for from the shop.
Now... AGAIN the price is ridiculous and the community is once again angry and discouraged. How many times do we 'wait and see what happens next'? I'd argue that 'wait and see' strategy is what we've been doing, and we see that nothing changes, and lessons do not get learned.
My suspicion is that the team sets a minimum bar to reach, and if they hit that number it's 'good enough' and 'successful'.
This is obviously an assumption, but one based on observation.
I believe we need to set the bar higher and REALLY make some $ on these by selling a lot more copies!! TO BE CLEAR I’m not talking ridiculous underpricing either. The BALANCE needs to be found.
I think community enthusiasm is also (unfortunately) being overlooked as a metric of success for a promo.
I'm also in the camp that thinks a lot more DEC gets burned or sent to the DAO and/or team when price is realistic and more players participate. This is also true for SB unlocking costs and pack prices…but those are topics for another post.
Please share your thoughts on the promo card pricing in the comments below! I’d also love to hear if YOU are going to participate?
Jimmy!!!
Jimmy! Nice Post:)
What do you think is the 'right' price in DEC for the Legendary promo, and the Rare promo?
To this I personally do not have the answer, it's not my position/job to figure it out. I have seen many other recommendations and calculations presented by other players, all can be considered. When the community is excited to participate, and it's not underpriced, that's the 'right' price. Finding that price... this is the 'market research' that needs to be done by the company, it's something most companies that are in sales do on a regular basis as standard procedure. Price should be a lot more in line with 'actual card value' imo.
Scarcity should not be something we try to force through high price for most items (we see these prices do not hold up on the market), but something that happens naturally as player base and demand increases. Again, I think it's fine to do with SOME items. For SOME sales. But not all the time. We SHOULD have a VIP club, with rare and expensive stuff. But we NEED to ensure access for low level players by offering plenty of reasonably priced, affordable items as well.
I think may be that is what Matt is trying to figure out, that equilibrium price. Since he is pricing, he doesn't have the luxury to say "I don't have the answer". He got to come up with an answer at the spot, and be ready for the judgement from the community. I think that is a tough job, don't you think? I respect Matt for that.
I also believe that these cards are overpriced but I also believe we don't have to purchase max copies. With the current state of the game we find ourselves in this mindset of MAX DECK or BUST because of how cheap and very relevant the Chaos Legion set is. I believe that when rotation happens we will see a better spread of decks and leveled up cards because the price of rebellion is still sustained. Even though we don't have Leagues anymore, I see that ranked play will go back to something similar purely because of price. In THAT meta/environment this may not feel so rich because a partially leveled up card would make a difference.
Thanks for putting your thoughts together here, Jimmy. I have got to agree that these prices feel incredibly out of touch. I don't buy the whole price discovery argument - we've had more than a few promos over the last couple of years to allow for that. I am absolutely of the mind that we want to create scarcity in the card market, however, retail pricing should not be the primary reason for said scarcity. Limited print runs and high demand should be at the core of ongoing scarcity. While we theoretically tick the box on limited print runs with the shortened promotion cycle (2 weeks), these are not game-breaking cards and, as far as I can tell, they will not be must-have cards in the Modern meta. The massively high price (I would suggest at least a 20% price reduction) along with an underwhelming card offering is going to leave a lot of folks on the sidelines eating popcorn. I will be eating mine. For the sake of the DAO, I hope we see a very different approach in subsequent promo releases.
Greetings,
The elements presented in your article are interesting. It makes me think about more opportunities to interact with the cards market
Thank you
Nice post, great generated image by the way 😁.
Always challenging setting price try to estimate demand, especially the future expected demand. One rule you probably ques it wrong.
I also wanted that the price was a bit lower, I need so many more card, riftwachters and rebellion. I think i will pass this buy...
Probably will be saving some for the mini set.
Markets doing market things. As long as there is a buyer/selling agreement and it is a free/informed decision, everyone is satisfied. After that, be confident in your choices and take the responsability, thats what it all comes to :)
This hits the problem, everyone is not satisfied, the smaller players are not satisfied and have not been for quite a while. I think we SHOULD have expensive elitist promos, but we also need to have promos most players can participate in to engage, energize and excite the player base. We have been focused on the top for years and years, while literally neglecting the bottom, the most important part imo. We need to start focusing the bottom if we ever expect to get new players and retain the ones we have.
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STOPI'm of a similar view to Azircon. You don't need to buy everything the game sells. Some people will and we should let them support the game. If not many BCX are sold that creates exclusivity. I thought about buying but but decided I won't be buy the cards as I don't really need them
I agree with your statement 100%. We absolutely SHOULD have some events like this. But not at the expense of the majority of the player base. The company also needs to generate revenue through sales (something they are struggling with). So yes, PLEASE have expensive and exclusive promos regularly! BUT ALSO have other events that are reasonably priced so we can see big sales and allow the majority of the player base to participate. This is the part that is being neglected.
I completely agree with you. I've been discussing the promo cards pricing issue and pricing in general with people for some time now as well, and what I see most often is that some people with a lot of weight in the community equate (in my view wrongly) the promo card sales and their card prices to card scarcity. They basically say that if the prices are high, that is good because that will create scarcity, and that, of course is good cause, you know..., low supply means high prices in the future. That's very nice on paper, however, as we can see from the previous outrageously priced promos - they have all lost their initial value by 60-70% or more. How come that is the case? Well there's obviously not enough demand for Zyriel for instance, and on the other hand too many copies were printed of Fyatt and the Halving dude due to card cycling for LB rewards. So, neither of these managed to keep their initial price. That's the issue with overpricing these cards. Why pay 550,000 DEC for the Leg if chances are it will get to its "real" price sooner rather than later. These cards should be priced fairly, and as you've said, then they will create hype and more people will get them. The community right now is not big at all so any amount which satisfies the demand will still be "scarce". I think stuff such as very rare foils, some sort of an animated card, a card with a really low drop rate from packs are all better collector's items than the promo cards.
PS. I bought the last two promo cards from the store and then saw their value plummet in just a few days so I will wait and see if I can pick these up at more acceptable prices from the secondary market.
@ghostlybg: Let us assume that you are 100% right. Then one or both of the following should happen and you should act accordingly:
I will be buying knowing the price will be lower later. That fact doesn't impact my purchase decision. I think I should be complaining since I am paying. Yet I don't see myself complaining.
How do you explain that?
Easily, you've got more disposable income to burn... ;-) I live in Bulgaria, I can't afford to splurge on every single overpriced card despite the fact that I earn well above the average for the country. Also, dismissing everything as "complaining" is not the best approach imho. I just share Jimmy's view that making these more fairly priced (in accordance with the current sentiment of the community) will result in more positive events with less constructive criticism a.k.a "complaining"... :)
Now you are getting it! Yes, I have more disposable infome to burn, so please let me burn it. Isn't it better if I burn it as opposed to you?
Again, you are getting it wrong. It was me who begged Jimmy to write this post, so that his view get out there and stays on the blockchain, as walls of text on discord has no value and gets lost the next day and noone scrolls up. I want Jimmy's view. which is different from mine, published. Not only that, I want Jimmy to earn money for his view, even if that view is different from mine.
Do you get it?
His post is currently fetching nearly $20. That is not a lof of money here, but I bet it is bigger money in Bulgaria.
I am originally from India. I grew up there. Please understand I know what poverty is. I have seen it, and I have grown through it my childhood and my teenage. I am an immigrant in the USA, and I have achieved the American Dream that they try to sell in the movies and political speeches. I am the poster child of that. I have achieved this by education, hard work and people's kindness that this great country provides to its immigrants. I am forever indebted to my adopted country.
I am an immigrant, I do know what poverty is :)
I want to be clear that you SHOULD be able to burn extra income on some expensive and exclusive cards/promos in the ecosystem. We SHOULD be having these. BUT what many players feel is that there is currently no balance. We are ONLY offering rare and exclusive promos but completely neglecting to offer promos that are priced affordably and designed to engage and excite the majority of the player base. I can't recall exactly when the Zyriel sale was, but it's been well over a year since we have seen a promo designed to engage and excite the majority of the community, and in that time had three events (with 5 cards) that have been extremely expensive.
If we even just alternate promo price targets we would see this salt simply vanish! Or when we offer one L and one R, as with the last two promo events, price the L high and make the R affordable! But the balance needs to be found, that's the main complaint. The complaint is not that we have these expensive promos AT ALL, the complaint is they we ONLY have expensive promos that price out most of the players. Simply offer both, and the problem is solved. We do need high priced promos, and we have them in abundance. But we also need affordable promos, and we do NOT have those at all.
That's why you are writing this. Maybe there will be cheaper promotions in future. Maybe not. I think whether that happens or not, free market will respond. If there are 10 of each card that sells, Matt will get the signal
Okay, that's fair and I totally get your point in regards to letting people who have "extra money" to spend it on stuff which seems not so "accessible" for the mere mortals.
Again, as I mentioned in my original post - I think the team could use their imagination (and adopt standard industry practices) to create real collector's items which would not interfere with the competitive side of the game by being for instance OP (or at least a Meta/Kind of/Sort of must-have card) and in the mean time still scarce and valuable. I'm just approaching this from the gaming/competitive aspect - people who want to be competitive feel the need to have all the cards that are frequently played and these promo cards often make that cut. However, they are not really interested in some sort of really limited foils/animated cards/some other type of collectible with some sort of a boost in the game which could generally be "whale items".
It's really cool that you've managed to achieve the American Dream by going to The States. I graduated from AUBG (American University in Bulgaria) and I spent 3 Summers in the USA (in Virginia and Alaska) on Work & Travel programs cause I had to earn enough money to pay for my tuition so I've got some idea of what that's all about.
I asked Jimmy this question and he couldn’t answer. I will ask you the same.
What do you think the “right” price from this two max promos in DEC in your opinion?
I am glad you have been able to visit multiple US universities. They are some of the best in the world. Alaska being sparsely populated narrows down the choices. Was it Anchorage or Fairbanks? I love both towns. Potentially a possible area I can retire someday!
I would say - 2000 DEC for the rare and 35,000 DEC for the Legendary are more or less fair prices for the current climate.
I spent two Summers in Anchorage. I liked it a lot there (at least during the Summer :D). I did not go as far North as Fairbanks but I did go to Denali National Park, Seward, Whittier, Talkeetna.
Yes, I purchased the last two promo cards as well, with the intention of supporting the team, even though I though prices were ridiculous. And yes, a few days later I was really bummed out to see the prices plummet. We need to create a situation where players feel rewarded for participating in promos, not feel regret or disappointment.
Yup, totally..
Thanks for sharing! - @azircon
We are seeing the community vote with their wallets. Hopefully the team will take this into account for the next couple of sets.
Yes. Hopefully. Unfortunately there seems to be a weird narrative that 'breaking even' on what the DAO paid to 'make' the cards is a success. The disconnect there is mind boggling to me. It's WAY too low of a bar imho.
I am of that mindset, but only as a minimum bar. If it helps drive DEC to peg due to demand and allows time for other sinks to burn DEC, then at least it is not a net negative.
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