But what if I sold hive to buy SL assets?

in Splinterlands10 days ago (edited)

No you didn't!

And I can prove it to you. Well there will always be some exceptions, but that only proves the rule.

I posted this a few days back explaining how "some of us" are looking at blockchain data to understand "hive etiquette". This is a controversial topic, but that doesn't stop me from writing.

image.png

One of the argument against the KE number was; what if the user is selling hive to buy Splinterlands assets? It is a valid question. As a reminder:

If I divide Author Rewards + Curation Rewards by Held HP, people who held more HP than they earn will have a fraction less than 1.0. Those who held less HP will have a fraction higher than 1.0. This is the Krampus Co-efficient! Or KE.

KE = (Author Rewards + Curation Rewards)/Held HP

Getting all SL asset data for all users are time consuming, but it is possible to do it with our sample dataset of 170 users. Thanks to @slobberchops I can add the staked SPS rather easily. I eventually like to add DEC, Collection Power, Plot, and Validator node columns to all. However, that is a tedious process so far.

Okay, enough talk; let me show you the data.

My working hypothesis is: Long-term Investment is a mindset, those that doesn't hold much HP, doesn't hold SL assets either.

Here is people towards the top (meaning good holders of HP, relatively speaking)

image.png

Notice: the table is sorted by HP, people who hold high HP (in this sample) also hold some SPS.

image.png

People who hold no HP, typically do not hold any SPS either!

Plots

Well you can say, damn, you didn't show us all the data and yet you are making broad generalization! Well here you go!

Simple look first. Plot of held HP against their HP rank. Highest HP holder is 1, lowest one in 170. Size of the circle is Staked SPS.

image.png

Notice, very few accounts above 15000 HP! Only 11 account precisely hold more than 15000 HP.

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I say, few accouts above 1000 HP! Only 86 account out of 170 holds more than 1000 HP!

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Okay! I am going to go out on a limb and say, these last 83 accounts which hold less than 1000 HP, holds NO SPLINTERLANDS ASSETS!

Well I know you guys will come back and tell me "but what about DEC? Plots? Cards?"

Bunch of whinners you are, aren't you?!!

This is the way my fav perfume youtubers spray!

Yeah don't be a sissy! Spray like this, and you will smell good!

And no if you Spray 16 times, you will not run out of a bottle every week!

Anyways! I digress!

image.png

Here is the proof, no they don't hold any SL assets either! Let us zoom it to some reasonable depth!

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There you have it, the constellation of extractors! The ones above KE=3 is people you should watch out for. They are net negative to the system I say.

Are there exceptions? Yes. I found 2 so far. ghostlybg and beaker007. They are above the line, but does hold substantial SPS.

image.png

Finally: Out of these 170 samples how many hold ZERO SPS?

68

Sort:  

Nice post again, drilling it down even further, i like that the rules / ethics are becoming more clear especially around the splinterlands contest.

For myself i started a small application (opensource) where everybody can check it for them self.

This is in very early phase so expect some errors... but its free 🤣
Currently busy visualizing the SPL in game value.

Future extensions / TODO's

  • Add hive engine as part of value overview.
  • Cross check value again this post

Sneak peak can be found here any feedback is welcome.

https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/

Are using using a SQL query to calculate the rewards? I might be able to help.

just change to retrieval from hive to hive buzz api.

Started with directly from the hive beem library. But i do not understand how to calculate the author rewards and curation rewards without pulling all the history. So changed to hive buzz api to be inline with what azircon uses.

hope this is more accurate.

I really struggled to get it using python, whether it be via the Condenser API or the deprecated BEEM. All I got was bad figures and the documentation anD examples suck!

HIVE-SQL..

SELECT curation_rewards/1000.0, posting_rewards/1000.0 FROM accounts WHERE name =  '{account}'

It's periodically updated and added to the accounts table, so you are not trawling through data (which takes ages!).

You can call this via Python using the pypyodbc libary.

Cool will look into that library, i guess the stats from hive buzz are accurate enough for now.

Yeah, whatever works for you. Great to see a website, kudos for doing it!..and please do a post about this, your creation. I will make sure its seen.

Wow wow wow, what a great library much better than beem...

Jumping some hoops with odbc libraries but then 💪

For now only used for accounts but great experience, will be using this one more often😍

KE formula seems off

Its (Author HP + Curation HP)/Held HP

Thanks will look into that, i currently only have Curation HP / Held HP.
Author rewards are the rewards for the votes you place are they not?

Author HP is most important. For most content creators, that is usually the large number.

Look here:

https://hivebuzz.me/ranking

image.png

divided by

image.png

On that website, sort table by HP

image.png

Is that the gain in SPS or HIVE?

please check again change the calculations different source, this is in HIVE. thank for letting me know.

I think it is working!

image.png

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Nice, thanks for the comparison.

WOW!

Is it possible for you to output a table with this headers please?!

image.png

A csv file will be enough.

HP Rank Account Creation Date Hive Power (HP) Curation Rewards (HP) Author Rewards (HP) Total Rewards (HP) Author + Curation HP (Author+Curation) / HP SPSP Balance CP DEC + DEC-B Validator Nodes Plots

Yeah that should be possible, i should be able to combine data in the end.

And i see is doe not do anything with DEC-B yet (for me this is already in the past 🤣)

yes, most people (except Vugtis) do not hold any DEC-B.

Please fix your KE formula though.

Should we add Collection Power in the monitoring? Who gets higher CP, means having more cards, has more commitment to the game than no CP at all.

since I am relentless! I like to have a button, that can let me download a CSV file on this data as a table! And then you are golden!

Do you know I copies 25 rows at a time manually for 100 pages of hivebuzz?!!

There is, but not yet your columns...

image.png

When this is working, it also should be no problem to give it a list of persons. Only the calculation time might increase to much todo it online, we have to see.

yes, but I like to have ALL persons

Extra columns are fine, I can delete or add, or make additional derivative calculation. But I want to download all users.

Define all users, all hive users 🙃?

For hive I do not expect any problems did not experiment it yet.

If I do a list of splinterlands users I will run in the backoff strategy of splinterlands and it will take a very long time.

Backoff strategy, when it kicks in i have to wait several minute before continuing, good API protection on SPL side.

i'm offline for while now 🛌

 10 days ago (edited) 

thank you for all your help!

You are a superstar!

PS. we can sort this tomorrow, next day, whenever!

Define all users, all hive users 🙃?

LOL, yes

and I understand. If it not much of a problem for all hive users.

For SL users we can choose may be top 1000, 2000, 3000 SPS stakeholders?

New update this morning i have added the option to ask with multple users, then only a table is show... next is to add some spl data to the table this will probably makes it a lot slower but we will see :).

image.png

PS bee gentle i have not tested is yet with large list more than 10 🤣

Thanks for this data and analysis that show that with very few exceptions those who have no interest in accumulating HP also have no interest in accumulating Splinterlands assets and therefore only have interest in accumulating Splinterlands upvotes

This post of yours shows that the new rule for Splinterlands contests is useful and necessary!

thanks
!discovery 40
@tipu curate 2

Please check out the new tool. It has everything you need at the same place

https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/

How much SPS staked to make it to light green?

image.png

I might still be orange at 740,000!

@beaker007, not correct stats but it's a start.

 10 days ago (edited) 

We are grading on the curve. This is based on the 170 sample data on the 6 day window that you provided.

image.png

If you are rounding here it will be 100K.

On the bigger dataset, all dataset, you can potentially choose the median.

You got the ignore Tofu, obviously :) That's a statistical anomaly.

Ah, I would be very green on that chart 😀

In august Median of top 1000 SPS stakeholder was 269,835

I would say even 25k Staked SPS is showing some commitment to the game:

Awesome, I'm in 17th Position there! :-D

I'd not heard of KE before, but Mr Chops just showed me that new tool. Mine is pretty low. I saw you mentioned not including HBD and I agree that it doesn't help others. That's why I'm mostly in HP. I do keep some HBD as a little bonus stash.

I like to see developers learn from each other. That's why I make my own code public.

Mr Chops is my co-conspirator in this crime! :)

I owe him beers, and lot of them!

He and I figure some stuff out together. I ought to add more tricks to my own scripts. Having access to all the data makes many things possible.

Thank you and slobberchops for putting together these datas and making these charts and showing to us. It's so interesting to read and look at.

Mr Chops is a talented individual. I am just a bully

Wow, I was wondering how this would be checked, so basically the curators will check all manually in the first weeks and then make a no-no list of people not owning any SPL assets and / or HP?

More work for the curators, respect to all of you! 🤎

Yes, a bit more work, but it can be done. There are ways to do it rather quickly. Also after while it becomes intuitive.

Always nice to see the data to back things up. I used quite a bit of money from a different chain to buy those Azmare Dice packs when they were out. I can't recall if I ever used earned HIVE to buy. I'm sure I did at some point.

 10 days ago (edited) 

My man!! Your KE is 1.0! We are not talking about folks like you! We are looking into the bottom of the barrel!

reminds me of this quote from Moneyball!

"There's the good teams and there's the bad teams. Then there's 50 feet of crap, and then there's us,"

That's such a good movie. It's been on quite a bit over the past month or so and I always find myself stopping on it whenever I am flipping through the channels.

What can i say but " you guys are so interesting" no seriously its fascinating that you guys can pull this cool data and look at patterns and trends.

ive added quite a few of "you guys that look at hive/splinterlands stats" to a list written on my computer desk. (A common place when i don't want to get up for paper) so i can scroll through your data from time to time to see whats what.

thank for your time and data!

BLINGIT

Appreciated. We like to look at data and plots

Great post. I'm looking to increase my HP/HBD assets this year while decreasing my L2 tokens.
!BBH

Sell all non SL second layer tokens. They have proven to be useless

Also no need to do BBH please. That's also useless

Those are some interesting data thanks for sharing Sir, I was more focused on my HP last year but now I am slowly playing the game regularly and trying to increase my SPS stake Also, right now, I have a stake of around 15K not that much, but slowly I am increasing it. I am also buying a few cards I love using in the battles. I hope this will be fruitful in the future and I will slowly increase my assets, my HP and everything here. And slowly increase my account value. Thanks for the amazing data. Good to see my name on the list xd.

Have a great day and weekend.

You are good.

image.png

The numbers... the numbers never lie!

and if they do, there is always a logical explanation!

Indeed! unlike some of the tripe that gets trotted out as excuses for holding bugger all HP!

This is awesome data! Clearly there is some extraction going on. Happy to be on the good list :)

Thank you and you are welcome!

Great idea, but the Author rewards appear to be incorrect (at least for me):

Here is the right number for author rewards:

You can check any account here:
https://hivestats.io/@seattlea

It is incorrect for everyone. I have requested a fix.

The formula is simple and can be tabulated in a variety of different ways. I am sure a fix will be applied.

Here is your KE

image.png

0.83

Thanks for the feedback i updated the tool today, so it should be correct now. If not let me know 💪

What an awesome tool! One tiny thing if you wanted to make it 100% accurate, it must be looking at some other land plots like not claimed ones as I have 5 and it shows 0.

I will change the name this, this are claims, unsurveyed plots.

image.png

Also notices that the CREDITS where not correct that is fixed.

I want to add DEED (land plots that are being surveyed) as well as card data.
These are some what expensive calls. Lets see how that work out especially with multiple accounts.

This post has been supported by @Splinterboost with a 12% upvote! Delagate HP to Splinterboost to Earn Daily HIVE rewards for supporting the @Splinterlands community!

Delegate HP | Join Discord

Wow, amazing. That's very well explained.
Thanks. It's make me think about it

Wow, very intersting!

Newbie-Question - Why is only HP taken into account, and not the staked HBD? If I get my rewards 50/50 and HBD is not taken into account, my "neutral" point would be 2 instead of 1, is that correct?

The more I think about it, the more I complicate things... HBD is also harder to track since the amount of HIVE per HBD differs in time. I'm confused now 🤣

image.png

as per @slobberchops; and I agree (I am just using his name as a shield) HBD only benefits you personally. HP benefits you AND the community!

Oooooh okay, I didn't know that. I thought HBD is something as well that stabilizes the system or something like that. Thank you :-)

I'm curious how many people specially (Filipinos) holds 50 plots or more? If you can show me that data I appreciate it so much!

I can't, there is no way for me to know who is Filipino

No problem at all ty!

Should the list be public somewhere so anyone can check their rank/performance to change the behavior?
On another hand, will the qualified one get better reward from curators?

Yes, the list will be public, thinking about enhancement and betterment.

No, I can't guarantee better rewards

The counterpoint isn't for SPL holdings but for any holdings. HBD, HOLOZING, CRYPTOSHOTS, SWAP.Holdings. Anything and all things that is considered a Hive Blockchain Asset. (A) Value Shifting (Positive) vs. (b) Extraction (Negative). Your system have too many from group (A) being categorized as group (B). You presented limited data that supports your theory. In fact in one of your previous posts the trending comment was someone who was unfairly categorized. That being said, extraction is a thing and I do appreciate the fact you have a wandering eye for such things. I know of some players who spend just about all their post earnings on Hive Assets. They are not extractors but value shifters. To extract, value needs to leave the chain. I also appreciate the work you put into thinking of a system and at the least showing it works to some degree, although far from perfect. I haven't seen any other system presented and I'm of the mindset of if someone doesn't present an alternative than the only one presented stands until someone does.

Traded Hive that goes towards apps or a business on HIVE is not value extracted but value shifted within the Blockchain. This should be encourage as it promotes the blockchains self sustainability/ helps grow the blockchains apps which in turn grows the chain as a whole which benefits everyone.

In fact in one of your previous posts the trending comment was someone who was unfairly categorized

It is funny how life goes! It is THAT person who helped me the most. Even created a website and a tool to get more data in an organized manner, for free and in 2 days! I am forever indebted.

That is awesome. I'm all for your general message of stopping reward abuse. I believe we agree on the end goal just not on all things that get to the main point. And I also appreciate someone has their eye on such things. I can only imagine how daunting a task that must be.

 9 days ago (edited) 

I don't agree here.

to me a 2nd layer project must prove its worth before I take that into account.

There are some projects that already have, and I am working to include that.

to me a 2nd layer project must prove its worth before I take that into account.

Every project has to start somewhere. Hiven's supporting other Hiven's with rewards earned on Hive. Read that again, its a complete circle of reward shifting all done here on HIVE that represents a self sustaining economy. Your system punishes that unless its a business that is already proven which no start up is.

Further considerations:

Hiven earns Tokens > Invests In projects On Hive > what happens to those invested tokens next is up to the project(s) that holds them. If extracted by the start ups or on-going business that issue should be taken up with the ones who actually did the extracting. The Hiven that provided the liquidity extracted nothing in such cases.

Extracting shouldn't be confused with "cashing out". Life happens and sometimes people need their funds. Lots of other considerations to take into account as well. Cashing out a portion for self enjoyment is also ok as well. Being here to simply take isn't and that is what an extractor is to me.

Your system punishes

Highly incorrect. I am doing a data mining. I am not here to punish anyone. Based on my data mining what actions stateholders take it is their choice.

Also I am not discussing how I make my choices, that is definitely NOT up for discussion.

Sigh....

When someone is placed in the wrong category in your system that is them being punished. It's your system that you created thus my use of the words "you punishing". Instead of saying you I should of referred to the system you presented to make it less personal. I think this is a minor oversight on my part. Regardless my apologies if you got offended. I'm simply providing counter-ponts. It's nothing personal. Punishing might be a little too harsh of a word here.

Also I am not discussing how I make my choices, that is definitely NOT up for discussion.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You created post(s) detailing the actions of others with a formula you created to categorize them (us). Those were your actions and if you thought they weren't gong to be addressed after you pointing out the actions of others then I don't know what to say to you other than that is a shocking revelation for someone to have who points out the actions of others.

 9 days ago (edited) 
  • I simply do not agree with many categories you refer to

  • I can prove with data, there are people who are extractting the rewards out, completely out of the ecosystem and not invested in ANY hive projects. List is VERY long for such people

  • I can also say that I do agree taking rewards out based on people's life situation. A KE = 3 refers to people that have taken out 3X of the rewards that they have earned. And that is okay.

I'm not sure what you mean by that

I mean how I personally vote is not up for discussion

Also I am extremely comfortable with all my actions, and I take full ownership of those.

This is where I will close this discussion from my end.

I can prove with data, there are people who are extractting the rewards out, completely out of the ecosystem and not invested in ANY hive projects. List is VERY long for such people

There certainly are extractors. I didn't counter point saying there wasn't.

I mean how I personally vote is not up for discussion

Well yeah, I agree with that.... However
No-where within any of my comments was I refereeing to how you personally vote.

I also have nothing else to add. Enjoy the rest of your day!

Also I don't care about what others think about what I am doing. This ain't a popularity contest for me. I am doing this on my personal time and many others are helping me, for free. I appreciate their help.

Also my goal is not to please anyone or everyone as that will be impossible. I am here for a long time, and personally I don't need a tool to identify who is an extractor and who is not, I can almost do it intuitively :)

I am trying to develop a tool which may help others to identify people and act accordingly.

Also I don't care about errors happening. It is normal with any process people develop.

Also I don't care about what others think about what I am doing.

Good, I live life the same way.

Also I don't care about errors happening. It is normal with any process people develop.

Errors in this case take a personal effect on people and their standings here on Hive. I don't think anyone wants to be unfairly labeled an extractor. It's not only harmful to their blog but a personal insult as well. Anyways, I don't have much more to add. Keep fighting the good fight but at the very least I hope our interaction here in the comment gave both us and the Hivens who are undoubtedly reading this some food for thought.

PIZZA!

$PIZZA slices delivered:
(7/10) @danzocal tipped @azircon


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Great post AZ - although I would look at the 1-2k HP holders more closely... because #reasons

With the new tools now it is easy to watch individuals and groups

I was just reading the comments and HOLY COW you guys have made INSANE progress!

 8 days ago (edited) 

Yes a whole new website and tool is up.

https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/

Many thanks to @beaker007

Also we try to remember, when we spray perfume we don’t do “sissy spray”! ;)

I still need unstaking my sps to buying rebellion cards
😭
But i am still building my HP now.