There's often talks about our unstake function taking too long and people preferring a faster method. At first glance some may argue this is so people can leave the platform quicker but I believe the better argument is that most outsiders are more used to unlocking their staked tokens faster on other chains and the 13 week function on our chain being too long for their liking.
I figured I'd post this poll and at the same time give some of my thoughts to a potential solution that may both keep the security that staked Hive along with account recovery offers to users while at the same time bringing the unstaking period down from 13 weeks. I'll add this as a poll after the common suggestions I've heard over time.
13 weeks - Keep it as it is
4 weeks - unstake your Hive in 25% increments every week (not counting curation rewards in the meantime)
1 week* - turbo powerdown (opt in - with potentially some burns), let's outsiders try the influence and rewards on hive while letting them change their minds about their investment quick. This is something that's been discussed in the past, I believe @theycallmedan suggested an option to let people choose how they powerdown and if they want out fast it would take a partial stake when choosing this option and burn that hive.
4+1 weeks - Okay, so this is my idea surrounding a faster powerdown than we have now while at the same time covering the 30 day account recovery option that our chain offers accounts which many others may not. This would basically give you a weekly powerdown the same as we have now 1/13th of your stake for the next 4 weeks, then on the 5th powerdown you'd get the remaining 8/13 all at once.
The idea is that if in the odd cases you have people who are unavailable if their account gets hacked to recover them in 0-4 weeks, we wouldn't give hackers 25% to 75% of your stake if 100% of it occurs on the same day as you got hacked before your recovery timer runs out. Instead, they'd only access up to 7.6923% per week the same as now but once recovery deadline has run out it won't change anything regarding what happens with the rest of the stake thus giving those who prefer a faster unstake the option to get it all on the 5th week.
Now this idea and option only retains value behind it if account recovery timer maintains its 30-day limit, if that were to change to be longer or shorter this unstaking mechanism wouldn't make much sense.
Other - suggest another unstaking option.
I'll keep this poll at only one vote per suggestion.
I'm cool with the thirteen weeks.
Part of becoming a Hive user is learning how to use the different facilities available like HBD, the savings options, keeping some Hive liquid.
Another comment mentioned powering down because they needed the resources off chain - it would be good if we had some kind of loan mechanism that helped people cover cash flow while retaining their stake (which could be used as collateral)? Probably too hard to think about!
Powering down isn't an option to me now. I'm looking at how my little stake could grow so that I can give reasonable vote
Best of luck growing your stake!
I have always loved to grow my HP the little way I can, I feel like it's my own little quota of supporting the blockchain and others who dish out quality content. I am not opting for any yet hehe.
I do like the idea ofr a 4week +1 as a concept, but powering down due tend to ensure the stability of hive price not going down so quick and 4 weeks seems to be the happy period :D
Maybe a liquid staking protocol for hive would be awesome because you wouldn’t have to do any change if the power down function . Locking your hive as HP and doing everything like having locked in your account and then being able to trade it in hive engine . Or something like that just an idea
I wrote a post a long long time ago about how I felt a combination of 4 weeks and a quicker option might be the best solution. I remember suggesting that there be some kind of penalty if you wanted to extract your funds more quickly. Even a combination of 13,4, and 1 week. Say if you want out in four weeks you have to pay 5% to get burned and if you want out in 1 week it's 10% or something like that. The actual percentages are not really important, it's the mechanics that matter. I like you idea, but it would be cool if you could have some kind of trusted third party verification as well. Like two factor authentication or something before that final batch gets released. Just another measure of security. For example, I have a friend that recently had some medical issues and has been away from his phone for 25 days now. It will likely be much longer. If someone tried to take his funds he probably wouldn't know, but for them to need to 2FA to his phone to get the remainder would protect at least half of his investment. I'm not sure if that makes sense or if it is even possible. Just me throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks I guess.
Oh heck I remember that post and thinking it was a solid idea at the time. That had to be like two years ago if not more, though the 2fA portion I think is a new idea? (And a good one that any change should encompass. Hell, we should really have a 2fA challenge for any powerdown).
Yeah, it was at least that long ago I think. Seems like forever now. I don't think I could even find it if I wanted to. If only there were an easier way to search your old posts on Hive :) That's a whole different can of worms though! I have a feeling the 2FA is good in theory, but probably a lot harder to implement. Who knows though, we have some pretty sharp witnesses here, they might be able to get it figured out.
I definitely think we have enough competent devs that we could get 2fA set up with an upcoming hardfork, provided folks agree that it's worth doing.
I would like to see a few more options available and do think the idea of a quicker power down available with a cost and that HIVE is then burned. Personally I have no problem with the 13 week power down and staking is important. When you are in the growth mindset the power down never really crosses your mind. Would more people who are not on HIVE be drawn to HIVE with other power down options available and I guess they would.
Yeah, I didn't even bring up some other suggestions that have been pointed out over time.
Like different powerdowns based on if you earned the stake or powered it up, so for instance if you earn from author/curator rewards you can only power that down by 13 weeks but if you're an investor looking to try hive out and decide if you wanna stay then without feeling like 13 week's would be too long of a test or to lock your funds away you'd get a 4-5 week powerdown on that stake.
Question is if we can determine the differences in stake per account and if the added math is fine by the blockchain.
I think the opposite should be true. If you're a worker (an author), you want to be able to rely on platform earnings as a wage. If you're an investor, that's not the money you need to live (I hope), and you don't need immediate access to it to pay rent.
Curator rewards, sure. That's like investment returns in that it's a direct result of the amount of money you have on the platform.
Well for that thought process we do have projects like @reward.app that let you liquidate author rewards instantly.
I agree having different power down options treating invested stake differently from earned stake should be something we should be discussing.
4+1 weeks with a little twist - 1/13th 1st week, 2/13th 2nd week, 2/13th 3rd and 4/13th in the next two.
Well this would give a potential hacker more after 3 weeks powerdown before recovery expiration than the current version does but I get your idea behind it, a growing powerdown amount over time.
Then your option sounds better. Is there a way to validate, that the account is not hacked and provide a growing power down option ?
And coming to account recovery, can we recover an account that is hacked ?
Yes, getting hacked usually means key changes occur. If hacker gains control of your keys he will use them to change the keys so you can't cancel a powerdown with the same keys. So you could say if no key change has occurred in 1 month you could allow people to unstake faster.
Recovery only works with hacked accounts, it won't work if you've lost your keys. You still need the original keys to change them back to a new set of keys within 30 days while being in contact with your recovery account trustee.
4+1 seems like a decent idea if we were to change it - but having done a full powerdown after being here for a few years I also didn't honestly mind the full 13 weeks. But, of course, my experience is not everyone's and we might see additional users willing to try HIVE out with a more reasonable unstake time... so if it has to change I'd personally go with this suggestion.
Maybe I am used to most tokens having 4 weeks (e.g. SPS) so have voted for 4 weeks. 25% per week seems reasonable and a round number.
That 4+1 plan sounds like a winner
Rather than 4+1 might as well go 6 weeks, basically a little over twice as fast as it is.
We could also weight earlier intervals with lower amounts and it gets larger as the unstake matures. Though this adds computational complexity to the system and is probably not worth it. Better to just keep it simple honestly.
Amount / 6 = weekly payment over 6 weeks.
Still covered by the account recovery system, over twice as fast as we have now.
A good middle ground imo.
Any system for speeding it up faster than the 30 recovery window really screws with our ability to mitigate losses on hacked accounts.
It's generally a balancing act between keeping funds safer in the even of account loss to scams and hackers and allowing people to access funds quicker.
I'm a hive witness supporting the blockchain please consider voting for me.
Power down should be quick as well as protective of hackers. I'd like to support your idea.
i haven't done a single power down since i have joined, so i think 13 weeks is fine. But 4+1 sounds a better option.
I will go with this option.
I like it 13 as it is...
When one has plenty of HP 1/13 is a fair amount to power down every week to have some liquid! ;)
Also it is a good self~defence for quicker abandoning :)
Hmm. Interesting idea. I have been on board with Dans idea aswell, but to protect against hackers or thieves. Yours might be the better option.
Fun Fun Fun :D
I am happy with the current one. And in fact, having in mind a project that would create bying pressure on Hive and reward the participants in HP, I would find it rather meaningless if it powering down become faster in the meanwhile.
As of the current recovery system, 4+1 weeks makes the greatest sense.
Hacking may happen any time and the inability of withdraw all at once is something that creates some level of security. I have voted for my desired option
The longer the better, that slow drip has its effects.
I like it the way it is currently.
I like the 4+1 option. It retains some of the security features of HIVE while providing a faster option than what currently exists.
OTHER:
I think there should be an option for every account to toggle their powerdown to an insta-cast cooldown situation. This would allow us to powerdown 1/13th of the account at any time on demand for instant liquidity. Casting this "spell" would then put it on cooldown for a week before it was available again.
The reason I think this needs to be a toggle is that the way it is now makes it harder for hackers to steal locked assets. The cooldown version allows a hacker to automatically steal one of those powerdowns instantly before the account can be recovered.
I'm also a sucker for unit bias so bringing it down to 10 weeks would be something I'd support as well.
I'm not sure I understand, wouldn't the hacker use this insta powerdown to take 1/13th of your stake before you can even get the Friday notification?
Yeah if you had it toggled to this setting you'd lose one powerdown on a hack.
It would be a way to keep the first powerdown liquid while still being able to vote with it.
I find your 4+1 solution interesting as well as a kind of hybrid that doesn't have an extra attack vector compared to the way we are doing it.
Ah okok so u'd set the account on an insta-pd option first just in case you'd need it and feel secure enough to not get hacked. kk
yes
Or if you were going to keep that amount liquid in the account regardless it would be the same outcome.
Which... arguably a lot of people should be doing right now.
Although the 3 day HBD timelock is pretty damn good as a compromise.
I don't think lowering HIVE's powerdown time would help HIVE's price much and instead introduce unforeseen problems down the road like even larger volatility swings in HIVE's price.
SPS has a shorter power down time of 4 weeks and it's near all time lows so I'm not in the camp that thinks the power down time is to blame for HIVE's price problems.
Thirteen weeks is fine by me. The 4+1 week is never a bad idea but anyone who has long term plans for Hive will surely be able to wait for a thirteen weeks power down
Personally I’m fine with 13 weeks, but to make it more attractive to outside investors, your 4+1 idea sounds interesting.
I will say the current power-down did save me when my account got hacked and I was watching my hard earned HIVE get siphoned off. But it was because of my own stupidity that my account got hacked in the first place. I like the idea of the 4 weeks + 1. That is a good balance of time and speed.
What happened? Or what happened that didn't let you recover it in time?
I fell for a contest scam. I really wasn't paying attention I thought I was putting in a posting key, but put in my main key that gave the hacker access to my account who of course then locked me out. @jarvie helped me out on the Peak D discord chat this was quite a while ago when I was pretty new. I think the hackers got 1/3 of my hive which was a couple thousand at that time. At any rate, I was able to get it recovered. And I don't think I knew the exact process of recovering my account until I got help.
Yeah it's quite complex, there's also the first impression people get that they can recover it if they lose their keys which isn't the case, so it's quite a handful of things to know about it.
Yeah indeed, it isn't super easy to recover, but at least I was able to. Better to just be extremely cautious in the first place and not fall for scams LOL.
I think a solution with more options would be the best thing.
I would definitely keep the 13 weeks and then I would put an option that allows you to take what you have in stacking immediately by paying a commission or a penalty.
For example, I hold BFG Tokens on Betfury, at a certain point the stBFG was born which allows you to obtain a doubled percentage of dividends but involves keeping the tokens blocked for a year, you can withdraw them earlier but with a 50% penalty... Well, something similar could be done.
Maybe 50% is exaggerated but in the end if you enjoy advantages that are difficult to find it is right to pay significant penalties in case of second thoughts.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know but it's my opinion; also consider that everything comes from the fact that I intend to leave everything as it is for at least another 8 years so I'm in no hurry to define issues like this even if, it is natural, the topic is very interesting and it is important to discuss these things for the good and improvement of the community.
I don't think anything needs to change about the 13 week powerdown. I think if people are unsure about investing on this platform, they can simply start more slowly. The things you can do on this platform with a small sum are the same as you can do with a large sum, especially since there are so many programs to ensure folks have sufficient resource credits. Give it a shot with your $10 investment or whatever for a few weeks instead of trying $100,000 right off the bat and then trying to get it all back in a snap. 13 is short enough.
That's true but in terms of influence and attention it matters how big your vote is.
1000 people all with a vote worth ten cents is far more influential and full of attention than one vote worth the same amount.
All that one vote did was put a post on trending, it's costly, and it hasn't received any views yet aside from one. The 1000 votes is affordable to more people, placing the post on trending, with 1000 views.
That's the difference between an "investor" and a group of "consumers" doing the exact same thing.
Yes but in terms of "trying hive as an investor" you're not going to get as much attention for your brand/personality/content/whatever if you're relying on using your voting influence to bring in likeminded people to your thing. Sure there's other accounts and projects that'll help you get your posts to trending or more visible but I meant in terms of using hive as attention generation.
We've also seen in the past that people matter, there's been accounts like theycallmedan who with stake have received tons of attention continuously then we've had other whales who may not have used theirs as well and barely any attention was generated/people realized they're kind of full of shit, etc.
That doesn't mean you can't generate the same kind of attention as a minnow/dolphin/orca though, it'll just rely mostly on your engagement, content, ideas, brand, etc in that case and won't be about investing.
If a brand could attract 10000 consumers all with 2 cent votes, which is even more affordable, all from the outside, bringing them in, what does that do for this ecosystem?
alright mate, i usually love your comments but seems you're more interested in discussing something unrelated here and I haven't even had coffee yet
It's not unrelated. The brand influenced 10000 people to view and support their work here and they all have enough stake to provide a vote worth 2 cents. Add that up.
That's far more attention generated when compared to what one individual with the same amount of stake can do.
One brand with no investment brings 10000 more people to the platform, while the individual with the large vote only brought themselves. While 10000 combined have the same amount of stake as 1.
A large vote is not as effective in this scenario. The small votes are far more effective. And since they're affordable, far more likely to occur.
Have some coffee. I think I will too and ponder if I'm living inside of a simulation or not.
Maybe reduce the 13 week powerdown time by half OR they can reduce the time it takes t powerdown but the faster it goes the more of the tokens get burned as fee.
other-
4 weeks as well as a quicker option - at a cost
Holozing has 4 week power downs so why can't Hive get with the times? #notpoweringdown
I think the ideal range would be between 4 and 6 weeks. I'd be okay with a 13-week power-down without a fee and a 4-week power-down that includes some sort of burn.
There are cases of emergency or Health issue, whereby our saving and Hbd won’t be enough. I feel it should be 4weeks, this will be more preferable and safer, i see it has so many potentials that 13 weeks (way too long)
I chose Other. I think we can leave the 13 weeks as is, but have the option of 4 weeks with some burn/fee. Almost everything one can do on hive is already free, so putting a fee on this one shouldn't be so bad. They can maybe increase the burn/fee if they want it even faster.
I like your idea @acidyo! just voted on 4+1
!PIZZA
4 weeks is good.
I cannot do power down as of this time and I hope I don't need to reach that point.😊
A shorter period of time at the time of performing the powerdown would be interesting, but to avoid mass abandonment, leaving it as it is at 13 weeks is the most logical answer.
What if the unstake period is made seven weeks? You do what is good
I think a solution with more options would be the best thing.
I would definitely keep the 13 weeks and then I would put an option that allows you to take what you have in stacking immediately by paying a commission or a penalty.
For example, I hold BFG Tokens on Betfury, at a certain point the stBFG was born which allows you to obtain a doubled percentage of dividends but involves keeping the tokens blocked for a year, you can withdraw them earlier but with a 50% penalty... Well, something similar could be done.
Maybe 50% is exaggerated but in the end if you enjoy advantages that are difficult to find it is right to pay significant penalties in case of second thoughts.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know but it's my opinion; also consider that everything comes from the fact that I intend to leave everything as it is for at least another 8 years so I'm in no hurry to define issues like this even if, it is natural, the topic is very interesting and it is important to discuss these things for the good and improvement of the community.
$PIZZA slices delivered:
@julsdraws(1/5) tipped @acidyo
The truth is that I would not have done it if I initiated a shutdown of my account to pay some debts that we acquired due to my sister's illness, but it is the life insurance that we have in case some eventuality occurs like the one that occurred. Honestly, if we could manage to withdraw the desired amount to pay off the debts, it would be excellent, but it is better this way as it is at the moment and give us the opportunity to get more HP at this time.
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