I've always been a proponant of fairness if I can help it.
Maybe it's cause I have a background of having travelled quite a bit when I was younger, or maybe cause I was a bit different to others growing up, or maybe cause I like to think I have common sense when it comes to it. Maybe I'm just a "communist" or "socialist" or whatever people wanna label others these days to make themselves feel like they're winning an argument about fairness.
But things aren't always fair.
I'm sure there's some people on hive that work way harder than I do on things and that doesn't mean they're earning the same amount I may be doing these days, at least in terms of hive coins. I'm also sure there's some who are earning more than me but doing way less. It's hard to determine fairness and maintain it.
As a curator I've always attempted to execute fairness in the way I approach things. Sure there's a lot of requirements and things I look at before deciding on how much to reward their post/comment or vote on their proposal/witness and I'm sure I also judge them based on things I see that maybe others haven't or wouldn't notice or just don't care about - we're all human after all, biases and judgements are natural. But matter of a fact is that I don't really care where you're from or what your religion or political stance or gender or age is when I curate stuff. This is something I've tried to maintain because I believe it acts in favor of fairness, something we lack in the world and the old economy.
Why are there kids working in sweatshops in third world countries while the CEO's of the companies selling those products make millions per year?
I was lucky enough to be born somewhere where I had quite a normal childhood although quite unique.
I usually don't like talking too much about my past or make things too personal, partly cause I don't wanna give away too much information about myself online but partly also cause it may give away my identity if I say too much for whoever is curious enough to research. Maybe one day I may change that on block #300 million or something.
Do you take these things into account when you vote for users on hive? I mean you are practically deciding how much value to give to people based on your own criteria's, whether selfish or not, whether you're thinking it through properly or not. I'm pretty sure most casual hive users don't even know where the rewards come from.
I'm not trying to make myself sound like a greater being with high morals. I've done shitty things on Hive as well.
This thought came to me as I was recently discussing some things with a few friends and they were recommending me to look into AI coding to help with a few things with one of my projects, if anything to make things cheaper which was the thing that got me interested.
When it comes to artwork I would never agree to AI because I know that artists generally aren't the people who are spoiled and earn well, etc, but the same thing doesn't relate to developers - they're quite well off so I wasn't feeling too bad about that scenario. I.e. taking some work hours away from some of our devs in the project and replacing it with AI generated work that's way cheaper.
Fairness came to mind there in multiple ways. Is it fair that I can spend an hour writing this post and interacting with people about it or other things and receiving $10 for it while a developer gets 5x that in half the time? Did I not put in just as much effort? Did my post encourage others to think about things in a different light, maybe rethink some other things in their life, or change some habits they may have here on hive, etc. What was the outcome of this post to other people, how did it affect them, etc. Was $10 in mostly autovotes a fair payment considering my history, consistency, roles, footprint, etc, but a developer gets $100 to copy-paste 90% of code and call it a day.
Okay, I may not be thinking about this fairly and naturally I'm not pointing a finger at all developers, not even the ones working on my projects really. Maybe a better comparison would've been an artist and a developer, but even there the artists would probably get better pay if it's a request which is kind of the same ask of the developer. You're requesting them to do something for you specifically.
Dunno, AI seems to be unstoppable and in a way I'm excited as to what I can start telling it to build for me and see it come to fruition before I've had time to finish my coffee. I'm also excited as to what we, creative people on Hive, will be able to build with it once it becomes so easy and seemless that we don't need to rely on 5 other devs in 3 different continents to work together and synergize and make sure they milk you for all they can before finally shipping the product you've been dreaming about.
In a way developers can also be artists I guess. AI is after all working on code that's been done by someone for the first time once and made to work, similar how Art AI is copying off of people who've gone way and beyond to master their craft and publish their works, many who were probably underappreciated and not doing too well financially but marching on with the passion they have for it. Here too it could be that AI has mostly just copied opensource work that some devs have done as a hobby and shared it with the world for free.
Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this anymore. I don't even really think most of my posts have a well thought-out meaning or a way to wrap the whole story up, maybe they deserve less than $10. Then again what is $10? is it $9 tomorrow? can it be $100 in a year from today?
I'd like to think the world may become fairer over time. Not necessarily due to AI. I do hope this technology that we have somehow made all about getting rich quick or scamming your friends comes back into a focus where we try to do good with it and some out there realize there's this one little project that's been giving 65%+ of its inflation to regular people all this time instead of 100% to miners, stakers, validators, etc.
I think it'd be fair for Hive to get some attention eventually.
Thanks for reading anyway, maybe it brought something to you and was worth it.
I have thought so many times about this... and if people gone through the old posts, they my recollect. Then I realized, no one cares about me... because social media is just a giant... only the ones that want to hurt me will care about me.
I have probably done more leaking (even without researching yours) on my own identity than you, but the point is (I think...) eventually life priority change, and our "idea of personal" changes too. Its always a balance between what our comfort life is, and our responsibility needs to be. I can't say I know the right balance yet, but I am actively monitoring where I need to be.
Actively teaching this is so hard, even for ourselves... but yes, even if I say I try to do it, the fact that I lean more towards either the ones I have researched a bit more about or know, is a fact that somehow weights on some of my decisions. And it should not be... it should be "thinkless-fair" in a fair world. And to find that sweet spot is a fricking gold nugget.
AI will be a tool... can't replace humans... but it it replace or reduce a lot of jobs. But maybe momentarily until new other jobs emerge as purpose of need to find knowledge increases. I don't think its a real problem yet...
In my view, its a much bigger problem (on current days) on how to control monopolized industrialization of high chip manufacturing tech stuff, then trying to prevent robots to competing with us humans. Even if they can become very cheap and accurate and predictable... they will eventually fail the aspect (for now). People will know they are not humans... and that will change their values.
But that can, might still change into the future...
Point is, its a constant adaptation on generations over generations. So, the ones (blockchain's) that can't adapt, they are DEAD most likely...
This is why I love being here (too).
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A few things though that people may over look.
Just because someone like you for example who can upvote 100% and it gives say 1 HBD in vote to the author. It doesn't mean that people spent years curating and interacting with users and building a brand so to speak. They could have just spent their grandfathers inheritance and bought a shit ton of HP. So fair... is a moving target with so many variables.
Then again, what is fair is usually in the eyes of whoever is speaking. What I think is fair may not be what you think is fair. Developers for example (at least here in the US) are notoriously screwed over as far as video game companies and the infamous "crunch time". But maybe like SQL developers get paid way better. So again.. perspective and unique per use case.
But with AI.. I get that artists can get screwed over more easily etc etc. But also I think anyone who looks at the world we live in right now and fights AI is just going to lose. Sure AI is going to replace jobs, it's inevitable. But all jobs in the future are going to require/use AI to some extent so it is those who learn to embrace it and use it that won't get totally screwed at the end of it all...
at least that is my perspective anyways. Right or Wrong
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Fairness as a concept means different things to different people. I can do my best to treat people the “same” but even there I have a bias. If I feel like someone treats me well, I try to treat them well. The things I downvote for I try not to do myself.
I’m not sure life or HIVE will ever be “perfect” or fully “fair” by everyone’s standard.
But I do think the more we support stakeholders that “care” about HIVE through their on chain actions the more HIVE will be better for most users. How to find stakeholders who care is very subjective and I would guess some stakeholders change; just like people do.
I do agree with your point not everyone understands the reward pool. Some of it is kind of complicated. I genuinely believe if more people knew how the reward pool works less people would sell...but I guess I’m biased about that too 😅
The world is never fair... Where I work the son of the boss does shit all day long, nothing, and gets paid 5x me... Yet I'm sure someone works harder than me and gets less... There will always be someone getting more or less than you...
AI will never be able to be really artistic as it can just mimic, but I can sere musicians and artists lose jobs as people will see cheaper alternative... I'm a dev myself but the wage is not that great and the hassles on the work are a lot, not just coding but dealing with retarded customers, projecting everything... A lot of times I think if I'd go back I'd change work...
As for hive, I not only reward the post but I also highly take in consideration the person behind the post, what person is this? It's a good lad, an extractor, an idiot? What interactions we had before? It's fair to reward good people and not reward idiots 😄
This post feels really heartfelt. The comparison you made between AI, developers, and artists in particular is quite realistic and thought provoking. Today, we are so used to results that we often forget the hard work, passion, and time of the people behind it.
Your point about Hive resonated with me especially because I also built my first public project on the Hive blockchain Hivepostify.cloud. I’m still a student, but I intend to take this project further and create something real and useful for the Hive ecosystem.
I think platforms like Hive will get the attention they deserve in time. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, it was really nice to read and encouraged.
The issue of fairness, especially when it comes to compensation for work, is an interesting question. I think everyone has a different opinion of what is “fair”. For many, fair would mean that a doctor that saves someone’s life would be compensated far more than someone who can kick or hit a ball. And yet athletes make exponentially more than that doctor. But athletes are the holder of a scarce resource that many people find has value. This includes me as I pay to watch athletes while I do not pay to see doctors do a life saving operation. But if someone did want to pay to see an operation or wanted to donate money to a hospital, I would say “Cool. I hope they get joy from that.” Perhaps a better example would be the fact that I pay to watch professional basketball but would never pay to watch soccer (futbol). Again I would never stand outside a soccer stadium and scream “Booooooo you’re giving too much money to soccer players! Now there is less left for basketball players.” But that is what sometimes happens on hive. People downvote because they don’t think others should like something as much. To me, that is just very odd. Different people see value in different things. I tend to vote for things on hive not because of a person’s demographics but because I want to reward behavior I think is positive. I reward people who try to be creative and who do not plagiarize, do not write things that pull others down, and write things some regular people might find interesting. I then vote people who leave comments as I think that is a cool thing for people to do. It especially helps little people just starting out. Maybe someone disagrees with that. But that is what I value. In the real world I’m allowed to direct my attention where I want while others do the same. But with downvoting here, a person can very easily say “Don’t direct your attention there!” And if they have enough of a stake, they can overrule my desires. That is one of the things I do not think is fair. If a person with a large stake likes something different, it is very understandable that they would vote on something different and assign a bigger part of the reward pool to that. They have a bigger scoop so they give a bigger piece of the pool. But it is simply bizarre (emotionally) that they can also use that bigger scoop to take away from what I think is deserving. For me, that is the hardest thing to explain to a person who might consider investing in hive. “You can vote on what you really like and want to see more of. But a person with a bigger stake can say ‘no. You can’t value that as much as you did.” Although the reward pool may work logically, that reality is emotional and unpleasant for most humans. The “I can’t like what I like” is a huge way to scare off regular people. This becomes even more important when you factor in the fact that curation rewards are impacted. “I need to vote 11 times a day to keep ahead hive inflation. I found 11 things I liked. But someone with a bigger stake did not think I should like them that much so they negated my curation rewards. Now I can’t earn hive for liking what I like. Yeah that feels unpleasant. I’m out.” And to be clear, I 100% understand all of the logical arguments for how the reward pool works. But the vast majority of human beings, operate on emotion and/or logic. If logic were the only thing that mattered doctors would be paid more than basketball players. So if we ever want to attract “regular” people to hive, we have to stop gate keeping and saying “you can only use hive if you only think about it logically.” We have to accept that emotion matters.
The "viral" algorithm that reinforces early momentum and early downvotes is skewed with large stakes being centrally directed. This is true for Hive blatantly, and is true for other platforms via bot farms or campaigns. What is needed is to let the stakeholders curate value and let the users tweak their feeds with how much they care to have stakeholders' input.
This would not be such a difficult feature to implement from what I see. There may be resistence, though, because rectifying this unbalance would cause a big shift in curation from users whose feeds would include posts that are currently suppressed.
Such a feature, though, would restore Hive's promise as a haven for free thinkers. I think @blocktrades had scoped out something similar a while ago with a short post series. I never saw it implemented.
As long as it isn't used maliciously I don't think downvotes make this place worse.
I usually like to compare to facebook/youtube/x to Reddit as the formers have all removed dislikes/downvotes, the latter hasn't. The platform I find most interesting is usually reddit because it has filtered a lot of the "bad content" away and only what the majority have liked is visible to me.
It's difficult to compare because we use stake here and there's also way too few people doing active downvoting so there's never any real conflicts or cases where certain posts get rewarded more after a downvote occurs because of the downvote. We're just too small to see it come to fruition properly and to then decide if it is good the way it is now or if it needs fuether changes.
“ As long as it isn't used maliciously I don't think downvotes make this place worse.” is this based on logic or emotion. Logically downvotes serve their purpose. Emotionally they drive people away.
“ We're just too small to see it come to fruition properly and to then decide if it is good the way it is now or if it needs further changes.”
We have had 9 years to grow. I realize I am a very small sample size. So small that this is not scientific. But I have not met a single person outside of Hive who I told “You earn curation rewards for voting on what you like. But someone can come along and negate that vote with a downvote so you can’t be sure you will get that curation.” This is where every single conversation stops with the other person saying “no thanks”.
I’m not saying downvotes don’t have their purpose. They are essential for stopping illegal or immoral posts. But using them to adjust rewards and to shape what people can and can’t vote on (if they hope to maximize their return on investment through curation rewards) goes against basic human nature. Humans as a species are not fully logical creatures.
and when I talk to people they ask "what stops someone from just voting yourself 11 times per day"
Another point is that there's way more malicious upvotes than downvotes. This is something that may be hard to grasp for some but it happens often, certain stakeholders want to overreward certain content/authors based on their own interest over the interest of the platform/majority of stakeholders.
Yea time spent doesn't equal value. A dev might get $100 for half the time, but imo if your post makes people rethink stuff, that's worth something even if it's hard to measure. Fairness is messy.
Even though this was just a sliver of your overall post, this is a topic I have battled with since day one here. I remember when I set up my account, I was debating for hours....Do I keep my identity hidden? I planned to bring my online community here so I went with making my face known.
Still trying to figure out if that was the right decision or not lol
Anyways, I always like to think I'm helping people when I vote. It's a pretty remarkable opportunity we have, to make people feel valued when they deliver value.
I can totally understand that. Balancing online identity and personal boundaries is never easy. But your perspective on making people feel important through voting is very valuable. This is what makes Hive different from other places. Thank you for sharing these feelings.
yeah i do think every now and again that i should get another account to keep my identity hidden but alas…8 years with this one lol
The problem is that level of effort can be hard to measure. Some people can write a novel easier than others can write a paragraph. Things like talent and training help to determine the quality of the product. I tend to just vote for posts I like while trying to take into account whether the author is just dumping all their rewards or stay invested in the platform.
Aw, you can be a sweetheart sometimes Acidyo :P - I have always appreciated your sense of fairness, and how you make an effort to reward those that you see deserving.
I'm in a sector of business where I think it would be better off to leave AI out of it all together, but it's coming one way or another and it almost seems inevitable. As much as I am opposed to it, I have started to consider that I might need to become and expert in some aspects of it perhaps as a second career.
I do know what Hive means, and I'm very grateful for that. I always try to do my best here to show my appreciation. I hope Hive always exists, continues to grow, and receives the recognition it deserves. I love Hive.
Justice is not so much about giving everyone their due, but rather about giving everyone what they need. But this justice must also be supported by conscience. On this platform, regardless of who the person is, I believe that if what they write, simply by following the rules, expresses meaning and thoughts that are truly effective and logical, then it should be voted for. You can already see that effort has been put into the writing. It takes great skill to explain justice in such a simple and powerful way. Congratulations.
I value my online privacy too. I run by the premise that there is always someone out there smarter than me. As a result I listen a lot.
I've lived in a lot of places too. Won't be happening much in the future as my body is busy attacking itself.
sorry to hear that, hope you can recover!
Look no further than the pigs with their snouts in the trough at davos and the wef to see how people are globally manipulated by the few.
Hi.
I like justice, but I also like logic. If there are children working in basements, it's sabotage, because we live in a world full of conspiracies.
I should have more money than I do, but there's always someone who ruins my plans.
Nice post, my friend. 😀
I think that not every effort always equate to equal rewards.
I guess, I 100% agree with you on it.
weird part to focus on but okay :p
do you wanna confess? xD
I am inspired my Oscar Wilde , so I will go with his qoute.
"I have nothing to declare except my genius"
Which now I converted to
"I have nothing to confess except my good deeds."
Sending some !LOL and !PIZZA for you..
things will always be rigged unfortunately
common sense is the least common of senses
$PIZZA slices delivered:
@r1s2g3(1/10) tipped @acidyo
Please vote for pizza.witness!
Fairness is something worth fighting for, but not at the point to lose our mind, because we can't have it at 100% and it's highly subjective. And all the "generative AI in art" topic is proof of how subjective fairness is.
I still get mad at AI, but it's not my willing to eat my guts for it.