( before we get started I'd like to apologize before hand at the massive walls of texts and lack of more diagrams in this proposal )
Please Cast your Vote on Proposal #164 By Clicking Here
Necessity is the Mistress of Invention
Born partly out of the necessity to decentralize the lending contracts on the upcoming Hive.Loans project and also in part finding inspiration to do further research after seeing the still somewhat ridiculously valued centralized EVM instance run the Binance exchange reach over $200 USD per token in value, the idea to create the HIVE networks' very own PROPERLY DECENTRALIED & WIDELY DISTRIBUTED version of the Ethereum Virtual Machine stack was decided upon as a worthy project.
This proposal aims to spread the word about the work to be done on this project as well as seek funding from the DHF in order to move ahead quickly to get this side chain built, tested and deployed in a span of 3 months or less permitted development and testing phases aren't met with setbacks. The whole idea tp create a HIVE user mineable, fully decentralized, industry standard EVM stack into the ecosystem shifted from a quick activating idea into an absolutely incredible amount of excitement about it being possible after an absolute ton of reading up on the subject, and personally beginning to reverse engineer / dive into the latest Ethereum implementations.
This post is a culmination of prior research into how the technical side of ETH works, a substantial amount of recently conducted research regarding feasibility and a pretty s=decent albeit fulfilling amount of "hands on" research on a handful of prospective donor ETH implementations rendered down via code editing local compiling of custom Ethereum Virtual Machine versions and it's necessary supporting libraries. ended up resulting in my thoughts and focus converging on the undeniable fact that a truly decentralized, community operated Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) capable side chain that throws away the lazy "clone and rebrand" model used in other chains utilizes HIVE as it's base and gas fee currency much like how Ethereum and Binance coin use ETH and BnB respectively ended up running across my mind and the idea instantly lit up bright.
To accomplish the feat of bringing a properly decentralized EVM stack to HIVE, the rapid development of a heavily modified custom HIVE based version of the EVM executable. The initial "core" team behind this project development are internationally based duo consisting of @lapingvino and @KLYE, both of which are established HIVE witnesses with a collective sum of over 25 years software engineering experience between them. By deploying a combination of reverse engineering blended with the developers different programming language specializations and knowledge of different systems and network architectures.
Initially my own personal development efforts will be pivoted towards finishing off the Hive.Loans project which aims to launch Mid April publicly albeit not running on the HSC at launch, then pivot to working on this project full time alongside @lapingvino and anyone else who decides to hop onboard the development push. Goal is to have at least 1 developer working on this full time at any given day and the funding this proposal provides allows for payments to be made to anyone actively helping to develop the HSC and is not limited to the core development duo but anyone assisting. It's very likely we'll have a fair number of developers from within our community come together to make this project into a reality.
While focused on finishing up and testing the Hive.Loans project I personally won't be paying myself out of this proposals daily allowance. The idea behind being inclusive in allowing other developers to contribute to this proposal is that it will end up paying a decent number of developers within the ecosystem for their efforts as they either hop on board with development or end up subcontracted out under the project in order to implement or supply elements within development.
Leveraging the Community and the Users Diverse Skillsets
In addition to the core development duo a number of other developers in the community have expressed their interest in helping make the HSC a reality and the plan is to leverage their help as well in order to expedite the development and testing.
The support from the HIVE development community even before the time of posting this proposal has been astonishing and I look forward to brainstorming and developing this along side all of you. Potential assets or developers interested in getting involved should check out the HSC EVM room over on Hive.Blue chat to gain access to the team amassing to build this network upgrade.
The level at which you step into helping build this system with the community is entirely up to you, ranging from something as simple as sharing your ideas on a part of the project, sharing interesting repositories or pre-existing code you've stumbled upon all the way up to diving in and getting your hands dirty contributing to the HSC source code itself we'd love to have your input on board.
Perform Any EVM Smart Contract Chain Functionality
Using Existing Ethereum or Binance's BnB Chain Code
Using Existing Ethereum or Binance's BnB Chain Code
But 1000% More Affordable and with Gas Fees Paid with HIVE!
Once the HSC has been built with great efforts going in to reverse engineering out custom smart contract from the most currently available Ethereum implementations our very own HIVE as a base utility token side chain will be live.. Potentially causing quite a stir amongst the crypto communities as the HIVE chain is imbued with the very same functionality 3 out of 3 largest market cap networks possess. The truly awesome part comes with the realization a user may gave before seeing it below.
Absolutely ANY (and I mean ANY) Solidity or Serpent EVM smart contract code that would run on Ethereum or Binance's BnB chain will be able to natively run on HSC with little to no code refactoring required. The modification of the available functionality that HIVE offers in the form of HIVE integrated and focused unlocking network wide access to some of the most highly sought after decentralized financial tools, decentralized exchanges, ERC-20 type token creation and decentralized autonomous organization structuring possibilities. Just as we are seeing a bloom of all sorts of interesting service and business architectures spin up on ETH and BnB once brought online the HSC will act as a catalyst and affordable workshop attracting innovation from all corners of the larger crypto and software developer ecosystems.
Understanding How an EVM Stack Works
And How it can be Implemented for HIVE
( this picture was stolen from google images as me drawing a diagram on MS-paint seemed silly )
People's eyes tend to gloss over when folks start trying to explain the actual technical working of how technology works so in the interest of everyone reading through this proposal, with the intention of completion hopefully resulting in a greater understanding than they did going into it and not resulting in a hemorrhaging of potential supporters getting overwhelmed by terminology they may not be familiar with or being intimidated by huge walls of text.
A Quick Terminology Crash Course
Fist off before we continue any further we have to lay down some basic concepts and touch on the terminology that will popup frequently within this document. Without outlining what certain words are in reference to the point of explanation is lost as many will not bother to research it themselves.
Please, if at any point in this proposal you're unsure of a term or concept and it's preventing you from becoming excited at the incredible prospect a HIVE based EVM smart chain will bring to our community hop onto another tab and insert the phrase into google to research more. While I've tried my best to make the information contained in this proposal as easily digestible to non-IT based lifeforms as possible, it may not be sufficient to convey the potentially abstract concepts and ideas required to understand how all this works. This technology is quite complex for most initially.
The term EVM refers to technology known as the "Ethereum Virtual Machine" which is the part of chains such as ETH or BnB that allow for the execution of smart contract code. It is with this technology powering these smart chains that operate what you can think of as "Worldwide computer"
A virtual machine (or the VM in EVM) as alluded to above is a term used to describe a system that may not actually exist within the physical realm but rather is a virtualization or emulation of a system which is often run as an application on an underlying system.
When you read a reference of a Stack in regards to this type of technology it's referring to a quite old abstract data type concept in computer science in where a system operates a store of data or code in a manner resembling the stacked layers of a cake or something along these lines. It involves 2 different fundamental functions beyond storage of data within itself consisting of "Push", which adds an element to the collection, and the "Pop" function, which removes the most recently added element that was not yet removed from the stack. By utilizing this "stack" architecture we're able to line up data to be executed by the virtual machine responsible for making Ethereum able to perform functions just like a computer without being physically accessible in any one location.
Putting it Together to for Decentralized Trustless Computing on HIVE
Armed with the brief crash course terminology introduced above (or known prior) we'll now explore how exactly an EVM stack operates and how it can be ported into HIVE via a sidechain to take advantage of our quick block times and extremely cost efficient chain operations while simultaneously infusing an incredibly sought after functionality within the current crypto currency ecosystem. We're not only looking to add value and functionality to our chain but provide an affordable decentralized alternative to the chains currently providing this sort of functionality.
When developers create smart contracts, usually high level programming languages such as Solidity or Vyper, one of the final processes involve compiling this code down into machine readable formats known as opcode and bytecode. Opcode stands for Operation Code and as of the time of researching this technology there were something like 140 different Opcodes which can be thought of as instructions for the EVM to execute more often than not conveying low level commands needed to execute the smart contract code itself. Then there is also what is known as ByteCode, which generally consists of efficiently stored Opcodes needed for the smart contract to operate which may also include things such as variables or required run-time data.
All of this Opcode / Bytecode and stack magic works together on what is called a "Contract State". It is this State in which contracts store exactly what is going on within the contract itself. Due to the technical limitations of the EVM it's not uncommon for smart contracts to often utilize what is known as "contract memory" or alternatively "storage" as it's referenced by most to store data for long persistence or future recollection by the EVM. This however is expensive gas fee wise and it's advised against to use EVM based storage unless absolutely necessary due to cost.
The EVM operates within all nodes of the given network in a sandboxed manner, meaning that the virtual machine element of the EVM is prevented from interacting with the machine that it's parent process/program is running on primarily for security purposes. Without this "sandboxing" in effect, given that the EVM executes code submitted by anyone the potential for malicious code effecting systems running these nodes would be incredible. Luckily due to the design of the EVM sandboxing though people can safely operate nodes without fear of falling victim to black hat developers.
While the cost and complexity of offering what essentially boils down to a "computer that lives in the clouds" isn't currently competitive with running your applications on a classical centralized server setup the HSC project hopes to bridge that gap by offering the functionality of an EVM to the public at roughly 1 / 2000th the cost.
Implementing The HSC EVM into HIVE
At the base level the HSC project will operate as nodes that can be run by anyone provided they have the required HIVE power in the account they wish to operate a HSC node on and the required hardware and storage available to produce blocks when they are called upon within a strict time limit. Currently there are two schools of thought in regards to how this should be accomplished.
The first summarizes up cleanly into coding then compiling highly customized Ethereum software implementing a P2P network that out of the box requires access to a hived executable to query any data it needs as well as watch in real-time for references it would need to act on in order to know if it needs to manipulate its stack structure to execute requests. Been experimenting locally with a few different research variations of this first method with some success, with the most promising implementation of this being based off of "Geth" being written in the GO language.
The second school of thought is that a graphene based (same architecture as HIVE) chain containing an EVM implementation is utilized which straight away makes communication cross chain from the HIVE blockchain to the HSC EVM chain a decent amount easier which may cut down on development time greatly. This possibility was brought to my attention by @bobinson after informing me that it had been previously explored to be feasible by another development team working on another project and may be the route the HSC takes provided the benefits outweigh the overhead that come with the graphene based networks.
In the end regardless of what way the HSC architecture under the hood gets built from the takeaway from it is that the HSC will monitor the HIVE blockchain and will perform actions on it as needed, as well as take input from the HIVE blockchain as well up to and including automatically querying accounts to ensure they have the HIVE for gas fees or that their account is the owner of a particular HSC address or contract. Interacting with the HSC will be performed easily on either the HIVE blockchain or using HSC node applications. The possibilities of new services focused around providing HIVE users quick and easy access to the more complex features that the HSC will bring to the realm of possibility for this community will certainly be an interesting field to watch.
One thing to mention as well is that rather than use the 0xFB551e1a50c3ECf19Beb975e9AB59C1bB00DA77F style addresses that Ethereum ships with, we'll be implementing a means of using HIVE account names as addresses and typing existing HIVE account names to HSC addresses. This has already been achieved by ETH and some other EVM capable sidechains and will not only add to the usability of the HSC but also greatly increase its appeal over other EVM chains due to readability.
The libraries we'll be forking and modifying to include this quality of life upgrade to HSC in comparison to other chains is from the Ethereum Name Service project.
Enhanced Side Chain Security Through EVM Synchronicity
One somewhat unique idea that came to me upon researching more deeply how this system works, the thought that by allowing the HSC network to accept the running more than 1 EVM instance favouring multiple EVM implementations in different languages and comparing their outputs upon execution of a any piece of code the network could leverage that in order to increase security of the HSC as a whole. More R&D into this design concept need to be performed in order to see if this has any performance drawbacks. Ideally the HSC ends up running at the very minimum 2 different EVM implementations written in different programming languages and compares their outputs.
By allowing multiple EVM instances to run in tandem to each-other on each future HSC node and writing logic within the node itself to ensure that no single implementation is throwing out a different output we're able to keep the side chain and it's execution of the smart contracts more secure.. In the instance that one of the EVM outputs differs from the other (or group) of instances that computing won't be included in the sidechain itself preventing potential exploits of certain EVM implementations from effecting our chain in any way.
By keeping the HSC accountable to itself in regards to smart contract execution output it's hoped that we can mitigate some future potential security vulnerabilities that may be discovered within certain flavours of the EVM implementation.
What this ends up looking like in the production releases of HSC and it's supporting node software isn't yet set in stone. However it is something that would certainly be valuable in terms of side chain security and smart contract execution accountability for the HIVE compatible EVM chain.
Decentralization, Side Chain Security and Mining
Learning by observing what some might consider mistakes of EVM stacks the like of the centralized BnB chain one of the core development ethos of the Hive Side Chain will be to ensure a properly decentralization model. This is done not only in the pursuit of creating a chain that more closely follows satoshi's original vision of how crypto currency should operate, but also as a clear advantage over other chains that feature more centralized methods and ultimately to allow the community to participate in the decentralization of our chain whilst being paid for their part in all of it by earning the majority percentage of HIVE paid as gas fees to the network.
Initially the vision for HSC was to base the decentralization model on the Proof of Work (Pow) style that Ethereum currently deploys but after brainstorming a bit with @ats-david it was soon realized that offering a PoW model would end up disastrous given a 51% attack on the sidechain would be trivial for any competitor to pull off. With that taken into consideration it was decided that a Proof of Authority / Proof of Stake Hybrid model should be implemented for security of the side chain, and also to weed out bad actors from being able to leverage this model by requiring a certain amount of HIVE to be presently staked in the account producing blocks. A required amount of HIVE staked in the account wishing to create a sidechain block somewhere around 500 HIVE or so will make up the basis of the Proof of Stake part of the Hybrid mining method although that amount might be something that node operators are able to set in the future.
This not only provides a means of creating demand for HIVE as users purchase and power it up to become eligible to mine HSC blocks and be paid in HIVE to do so, but also adds a significant cost for a large actor planning on creating multiple accounts to attempt to 51% attack the chain.
Mining of HSC blocks will ultimately be performed by a large number of users running HSC nodes on systems with enough hardware to facilitate the chain. Source code will be made available for users wanting to compile their own nodes as well as access to precompiled executables in popular formats such a .exe with be provided to allow users of varying technical wizardry levels to get involved in producing HSC block and in turn help decentralize this side chain and earn HIVE while doing so.
One of the design goals of the HSC project will also to be target lower block times in comparison to the 15 seconds of ETH. Something between 3 to 9 seconds will end up being the target time for block production to facilitate a responsive user experience.
A breakdown of the distribution of the HIVE gas fees of the sidechain are projected to follow the information stated below although these percentages are not set in stone and may change over the course of development or later on through either soft forking of HSC or perhaps as community specified values with the hypermajority value displayed by the nodes being used for calculation:
Hive Side Chain (HSC) Gas Fee Distribution Model
80% - Node Operators Producing Blocks / Block Miners
10% - Future Development Fund / R&D DAO
10% - Sent to @null Account / Burned to Combat Inflation
Given the design of the HSC uses HIVE as it's base and therefore it lacks the need it's own inflationary base token paid out to node operators helping secure and decentralize the network. The percentage of the burn rate vs block producer pay is something I'd like to see built as a node operator selectable metric that will be determined by the majority integer value broadcasted by the nodes on the network similar to how HIVE witnesses do the HBD interest rate now.
The 10% future development fund or HSC R&D DAO will initially be set as a static 10% in the source code although depending on HIVE gas fee volume and the actual capital worth of this 10% it will likely see a downwards adjustment through hard forks in the future. For example if in a hypothetical (or near distant future) HIVE goes to $25 USD a piece and the HIVE Gas Fee volume daily was some extremely large number resulting in the 10% development funding being an amount that is far above and beyond what any lone or team of developers would need to perform the work than the percentage integer would be brought down until the percentage reflects a sane amount of money.
The HSC R&D DAO and DHF Repayment Plan
The HSC future development fund or R&D DAO will serve as a means to pay developers for updates to the side chain as well as prevent the need for future proposals seeking funding, avoiding the need to ask the community for dev funding in regards to this project in the future.
As a side effect it also relives some potential future pressure on the DHF and acts to "future proofs" the funds needed to perform updates on the side chain as we may come to find the DHF funding exhausted some time in a distant future. As an added bonus and means of replenishing the DHF for providing the initial seed capital to pay the development team, the HSC R&D DAO funds will initially be used to pay back the DHF capital cost this proposal seeks as seed funding.
This ensures that the community isn't footing the development bill with no plan to replenish the funding required but rather turns this proposal into loan of sorts with no party being left with anything less than what they started with before project development funding was acquired.
This is a callback and attempt at improvement upon to the "pay it forward" model of DHF funding prototyped in the Hive.Loans proposal that ultimately lead to the demand for decentralized contract operations which then in turn sparked the research leading to realizing the HSC needed built immediately and be made publicly accessible to HIVE users. The whole crypto community stands to potentially benefit from this project and the potential demand for HIVE increase could be astronomical if the HSC project development is swiftly tackled then properly marketed.
The HSC Development Proposal Cost Numbers
$120 HBD Daily over the next 3 Months Totaling $11040 HBD
This proposal seeks $120 HBD over the course of the next 3 months to be paid to the @hive.side.chain account to fund development of the Hive Side Chain (HSC). The Proposal duration shall start at the time this proposal is made public (Friday, March 12th 2021) until completion (Saturday, June 12, 2021) with a total development cost of $11040 HBD paid by the DHF.
As outlined in the "The HSC R&D DAO and DHF Repayment Plan" section above, this initial development seed capital amounting $11040 will be paid back via the HSC developer R&D DAO income the sidechain generates on all transactions occurring on the sidechain itself.
Not only does this development funding end up being zero cost to the community as a whole once paid back but the potential increase in HIVE price due to offering a competitive smart contract capable chain offering the same functionality as 2 of 3 top market cap coins will very likely end up creating value hundreds or thousands of orders of magnitude higher than its initial costs.
Understanding The Important Fundamental Differences Between Different Project Development Goals
Building Something on the Hive Blockchain
~VS~
Building Something for the Hive Blockchain
~VS~
Building Something for the Hive Blockchain
While for a developer setting their sights on the HIVE blockchain as a place to establish a presence here, there is absolutely no real issue in regards to in building applications with the myriad of developer tools and libraries available at places such as developers.hive.io not to mention our community of developers is quite knowledgeable and helpful.
There is always a benefit of having more applications offered by a diverse community of developers which serves to increase a currencies demand as well as perhaps also sparking competition between them leading to lower fees and a greater likelihood of HIVE exclusive innovation via applications to occur.
However, as far as developers designing and building projects for the benefit of the entire HIVE community beyond the scope mentioned above, it is something not occurring as often as I personally would like to see, perhaps others share this sentiment. Now I'm not saying that I believe developers should work without pay or compensation for their work, as that is quite the opposite of what the case should be.. But what if more developers started designing and building more projects focused towards providing incredible value to the entire HIVE chain and also the crypto community as a whole?
Certainly aware that even entertaining the idea that project developments within our own ecosystem, especially ones that completely change the fundamentals of how HIVE can be used, or that alter the utility of our blockchain itself are something that might be a rarity occurrence becoming a common place thing may be viewed as a pipe dream.
However I'm also certain that as a community we'll grow and begin to further explore exactly what it is we'd like HIVE to be capable of, leading to investigation of how to implement our visions, leading to more projects coming along and completely reshaping the HIVE blockchain in a manner that creates more value for everyone involved with it currently and in the future.
As a developer here on HIVE my ultimate goal is to bring innovation and outside interests attention and capital into our ecosystem. Hopefully more developers here on HIVE begin to look at things not from the perspective of providing services to enrich their own lives but rather look to see how they can create things that will have a net positive effect on our community as a whole.
The more we strive to grow beyond the original DNA/functionality of the HIVE code base while taking honest looks into what can be built to benefit of the entirety of the HIVE community is something that should be explored introspectively by everyone developing here.
In Conclusion
We as a community would be foolish not to be immediately moving towards doing everything possible to support this obvious upgrade to our blockchain functionality. This project will hopefully act as a cornerstone in separating us from the other graphene based blockchains out there both in terms of functionality but also as a means of meeting an obvious demand in the market with something that benefits all HIVE holders as a whole.
It's going to take more than a little bit of money and a room full of developers for this to work though, the entire communities involvement will exponentially increase the chances of the HSC project catapulting the HIVE blockchain into the ranks of top 10 or top 5 market cap coins but in order for this to happen anyone and everyone who has an interest in seeing HIVE grow needs to be doing their part. Be it coding new smart contracts on the future chain, marketing the HSC to people bitching on twitter about ETH gas prices or simply casting a vote on this proposal and checking in from time to time..
There are tons and tons of way you can help support this and future HIVE projects, Ultimately it's up to us as the community to steer the ship where we'd like to see it go. Effectively every user has the potential to be the leader of HIVE in their own ways and putting this all together is my way of saying:
If you managed to read this proposal and would like to be a part of helping HIVE and it's community come together to allow for the funding of a team consisting of developers within the community to perform upgrades to our blockchain in the form of a fully decentralized 100% HIVE compatible smart contract sidechain please consider voting for this proposal. In the end we're the ones who are responsible for the future success or failure of HIVE and inspiring people to be more proactive in their actions is key.
We as a community stand at the doorway to a new age of abundance for us all.
( If you'd like to further support this and future development endevours of mine please vote @KLYE for witness! )
Please Cast your Vote on Proposal #164 By Clicking Here
Also forgot to mention the project will be entirely open sourced once it's been made to be incompatible with competitor chains! ;)
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I'd prefer to see a PoC first before the money is paid out of the DHF. Because writing some text to get people hyped isn't difficult, but building the actual product which works well and is secure, is more than difficult.
And while I value your initiative and mean no disrespect, I have some doubts that you're a bit over your head (with 3 projects needing work simultaneously) Building a sidechain is serious work and has to be absolutely secure/audited. Looking at your track record, you're an OG Hiver for sure and have always been active, but AFAIK, there have been a few "exploits" of your hive-roller.com app. These kinds of exploits would be horrendous and basically non-acceptable for the sidechain.
Personally, I think it would be best if you'd work together with BT & his team or other experienced developers.
You're more than entitled to have your doubts in my abilities as a sotware engineer, but at the end of the day it's not just me building 3 projects (thankfully). On the contrary to just some lone developer frantically trying to juggle 3 projects it would seem that a number of developers within the ecosystem have expressed their interest in helping this sidechain project along as they can.
To be entirely honest the only way I'd have even dreamt of this being developed was after testing the waters to see if fellow developers were interested in the idea, then after a long bout of research into the exact working mechanisms of how ETH and other chains have implemented their EVM stack it became apparent this was in fact something that could be done.
Most of the work has "been done" by other crypto projects in regards to putting all the pieces together. Quite an extensive list of reference material and donor repositories have made their way into a catalog that will hopefully make what's being done here a little easier to digest for developers doubting its possible.
Building this sidechain will simply be a matter of utilizing what's already known to be working on other crypto projects and amalgamating them into a HIVE asset.
The recent HR calamity was a learning experience and a lesson in not properly red teaming my own stuff to ensure it was covered against fringe occurrences or malicious function manipulation. Thankfully this HSC project will share zero code with the HR application so any security issues that lay yet to be discovered and patched on that codebase won't be grandfathered in to this project.
This sort of thing does require more than one swamped developer, you're entirely correct! And I'd be honoured to work with blocktrades if he so chose to get involved with this project, same goes for any other developer that would like to help. I'll reach out to him and see how he'd go about this as any sort of insight or constructive concerns voiced ultimately helps the project in the long run.
i believe in you @klye just copy what @hellotelos did muahaha
https://telos.net/telos-evm
https://telos.net/telos-ethereum-virtual-machine/
https://cointelegraph.com/news/telos-to-support-ethereum-compatible-smart-contracts-on-its-network
https://t.me/dappstelos
https://t.me/dappstelos/14851
Looks like they forked EOS eh?
that's cool.
Appreciate the answer!
Looking back over the proposal; it's sadly a huge text-wall - technical important stuff, mixed with marketing/ELI5 text. It would certainly help to get your point across if you'd keep things short and to the point. I'm already reading code all day, man :D
I'd appreciate it if you could quickly answer the following questions:
I've not got a working code-base yet sadly. Was doing most of the initial research and tinkering on a custom "Geth" version. Will work on getting a repository online for this before the end of the weekend.
By native gateways do you mean the ERC-20 <-> BEP2 bridging that's been worked out for it? Was certainly something that I came across in research and bookmarked but haven't fully looked into how it all works. It would be silly not to have something like this eh?
Started using GOlang although ideally something like C++ would be used down the road. Have looked briefly into NodeJS implementations of Ethereum but given Javascript number handling is basically aids likely going to shy away from that side of things..
Current project status: Exploring multiple implementations of the Ethereum protocol on a handful of languages in comparison and also as exploratory research. Awaiting bobinson to get back to me to look at an example of an already EVM stack running on graphene. Had a number of different node types built and running locally trying to find optimal block times.
The current funding will be going towards compensating developers putting active hours into the project development. Total cost to get the side chain running should not exceed the value of the proposal. As for cost of hardware to run nodes initially it should be low, although might become larger assuming developers use it like a DB as seems to be the case with ETH.
Absolute earliest I'd dare speculate the beginning of alpha testing occurring is a month and a half or two months from now. Might have something working earlier than that, likely will be running testnets during developing within the next 2-3 weeks.
Bah, you said it! Needs more pictures and TL:DR's.. Noted!
Thank you for the questions. I know you're a busy man but if once I get a repository up and running here you want to hop in and throw some code around would certainly be grateful. More the merrier and in a day or so I'll have a better overview of who all is interested in giving the project development a hand then we can start attacking this thing to get it running and ready for testing.
I completely agree with the sentiment. I feel like you're waaay underestimating the difficulty of the task.
The fact that you're using "simply" and almost thinking of it as putting two existing lego bricks together. shows that you don't see how hard it is to build it. You mentioned that you want to fund it with other devs but which other devs are on board ?
I think wolf is right that a poc would go a long way before requesting funding.
Also overall I think there is no point in funding 50 different side chains at the same time, @blocktrades is building one, hive engine is there, decentralized fiat has one etc.
There is just no need for yet another one, imho we should just converge together to work on one or two instead of spreading thin.
I looked at the 6 or so different sidechains being built and asked myself "are any of these offering what ETH, BnB and countless other chains that are attracting millions and millions of dollars volume daily doing?"..
As far as I know no one was making a side chain that was going to be compatible with all existing popular smart contract code and also use HIVE as it's utility currency.
If a bunch of people are building side chains to add functionality to HIVE that is great, will certainly try to build interfaces with all of them to support the community and be inclusive.
For Devs on board officially it's lapingvino and myself although a few of the other guys have expressed some interest in helping. Even if it's just small things like helping run nodes on testnet or auditing code when it gets pushed will help out immensely.
Also lol, The usage of the word simply in that context is hella sarcastic. Obviously if it was simple someone would have done it 3 years ago. Quite confident though that development of this chain will result in a net positive for the community as a whole.
The convergence idea is cool, but who's project to focus on?
If the entire developer community focused on one project and smashed it out you figure development cycles would take weeks instead of months? It would be cool to have all the devs working together on projects to turbocharge things, but to overcome the different schools of thought and personality quarrels within our group may take a truly worthy cause or a time of incredible chaos. If you want to work on this sidechain you are welcome to. The helping eachother idea is neat but most of us developer types seem to stick to ourselves. :/ Been lucky to have a few developers express interest in aiding this project along.
Personally I'm focused on building this as a means of decentralizing my lending contracts in v2.0 of Hive.Loans.
Sadly haven't got time for atleast the next 3 or so months to dive into other peoples sidechains here on HIVE in any serious fashion.
Nice
Please Cast your Vote on Proposal #164 By Clicking Here
Thanks to everyone supporting this project!
Done.
Thanks captain.
TLDR: Bringing Ethereum functionality to HIVE via a sidechain that uses HIVE as its base currency and for gas fees. Community run nodes will provide proper decentralization of the industry standard smart contract functionality while earning HIVE for running a node. Any ETH Solidity / Vyper / Bytecode smart contract already existing will be able to run on this side chain powered by HIVE. Increasing demand and making us competitive.
i love the fucking logo
get ready for the hive x telos ethereum virtual machine hybrid test net with sofi x defi hive social media posts actually funding and governing the reward pool and managing teh dac dex and the dix and the dox with edenos lol ok just kidding
but not joking about hiveio x telosnetwork hahahaha
also mix in ZEOS
hive is canada now
canada is hive now
we have America surrounded
Canada from the north..... san diego from teh south west, nesara IRL florida in the southeast
Canada is fucked.. Not Ukraine fucked but still fucked.
you like my logo eh? :D
Voted and reblogged. This would be such a massive upgrade for the entire Hive ecosystem it almost gives me goosebumps thinking about it. Make it happen. Putting this functionality behind all the tribes being built and released "into the wild" as you say would be such a huge benefit for everyone. Why would anyone on here ever need to go anywhere else?
Yeah.. It will completely change what HIVE is in a sense..
The possibilities are endless, and if we're faster and cheaper than the competitors generally a free market gravitates towards making that sort of offering receive majority support over time.
I like how you think. It's not only the people already here though, it's the entire crypto ecosystem! Why use expensive ETH or centralized BnB when you're given a chance to use something that arguably will beat the both out in time.
Thank you for the support!
That's what I meant, once they're here, there will never be any reason to leave. They can just keep expanding their footprint here to do everything they need to do. Trading, defi, gaming, NFTs, information, creative expression, videos, tweeting, podcasts, the list just keeps on going. WHEN you get this done :-) the underlying infrastructure will just be too good NOT to be a part of. I can't wait. It looks like the vote on the proposal is going well, right? I've never actually watched one get completed so I'm not sure how long they usually take. But last I checked you were already over half way there in less than 24 hrs...
With some creative software design it may even be possible for the HSC to act as a bridge to easily interact and swap with the other chains based off similar technology. :)
Converting over NFTs from other blockchains and our own sidechains should be possible as well. As far as support of the project goes I'm quite impressed by the community response already.
Personally, I doubt I'll have any use for this. I'm supporting it only because it's a project offering a product tied directly to the HIVE token itself rather than being another scheme designed to extract existing value from one place on chain, just so it can sit somewhere else on chain, under a new name.
Offering the consumer a better deal than the competition does tend to attract interest but this is hardly innovative and people tend to be loyal to their brand. As that's happening, the brand is making adjustments to better suit the needs of their customers, in order to keep them. Don't think for one second the better deal offered here wouldn't be instantly countered elsewhere.
Fees are high elsewhere. Yes. One question. If HIVE 'moons', does that not mean the cost per transaction here 'moons' as well? The small powerup required to get the ball rolling here today only costs a few bucks. If this project is a 'success' and does end up creating solid demand for HIVE, won't it then create the problem it set out to solve?
Appreciate the support even though it's not something you're keen on utilizing. <3
I agree with you on the price battle / competition point. There are a number of metrics beyond just price point to keep in mind such as decentralization model, transaction bandwidth, interchain transfer capabilities, etc etc etc. It is in some sense as you mention not very innovative but still a worthy upgrade of chain functionality imho.
The way fees are set up out of the box on the ethereum implementations is a huge amount of variables. The plan is to shift these variables from being set on compilation of the app to being an integer the block producers of the network can vote upon, similar like how it is here. By implementing gas fees that can be adjusted by the community we avoid a lot of the price moon issues you speak of.
Can't be competitive if you don't compete. Gotta keep up with the Joneses...
I lose more and more interest as things become more and more about the things I'm not interested in, but that's just me, and my name is Nobody Special. I do see demand both internally and externally for services like what you intend to provide. You claim the planned approach outlined here shall benefit those both directly and indirectly involved. Many projects on Hive can't really say that even though it is mentioned within their echo chambers several times per day. When you're on the outside, everything inside sounds muffled.
I look forward to seeing results. Good luck, dude.
I certainly long for the luxury of not having to obsess over things down to the smallest detail or trying to cover ever fringe event or what have you in the digital realm as I do currently.. It would really be nice for my browse tabs not to do this:
I don't know what this means exactly but resonates with me man.
Highly appreciate the support.
The chaos in those tabs reminds me of my digital art WIP folder, but only when you add a few hundred more images. I'll get around to it.
Worst part is most of those are actually information that I was digesting.. XD
Perk of the internet and modern computers I guess? Can have a butt ton of knowledge in front of you.
I have voted for it Mr K with all of the tits on my face! MAKE HIVE GREAT AGAIN! :OD
Face tits are a must when facing down such a monumental future shift here on HIVE. :)
Thanks man. <3
!WINE
Cheers @zelensky, Thank You For Inviting @meesterboom To A Glass Of WINE.
At The Moment You Don't Have Enough WINE Staked To Order A Glass Of WINE From @wine.bot.
Please Refill Your Barrels By Directly Buying WINE From Marketplace & Make Sure You Have Atleast 25.00 WINE In Staked Wallet.
Total Purchase : 24375.125 WINE & Last Price : 0.290 HIVE
HURRY UP & GET YOUR SPOT IN WINE INITIAL TOKEN OFFERING -ITO-
WINE Current Market Price : 0.280 HIVE
hear me out. Yes I am so sick of ethereum stupid fees. also it makes hive stronger
whatever is this you have in your mind is in the right direction, we need to be the ones making sense as a technology to use over the outdated ones.
this is the way.
This is my thought towards modernizing HIVE functionality and actually making it competitive in the crypto ecosystem.
supported, making a ETH-compatible sidechain of Hive would be awesome 🚀
Thanks for the support lovely!
Awesome. Supported.
isn't HSC as a HIVE SMART CHAIN a better name? we already have side chains... :)
I am debating running a poll on the naming. Thank you for the support
Do the one thing. Then do the other one thing.
Sounds like double the work. lol
This sounds hard, I really want to vote, but will wait to see some progress first.
However, if you name it Hive Smart Chain, I'll vote it instantly. The whole point of this is to say, hey we got exactly what ETH and BSC offer.
But we name it Hive Side Chain??? Common.
It's not going to be a small undertaking. Lots of stuff to do..
yeahhhh. We might have to rebrand it eh? Hive Smart Chain does sound better.
:) I voted already anw.
But it does sound better please rebrand.
Good stuff. Make it happen :)
Won't be just me, I'm merely the spear head leading the community towards the goal. :D
There's no use for this with Optimistic Ethereum releasing in a week or two, followed by Arbitrum in Q2. No one's going to use some random side chain when you can get dirt cheap gas on an Ethereum rollup. Hive is a failing project that has fallen from #3 to #250 and should accept and consolidate itself its niche instead of having delusions of grandeur of top 10. It will never happen, and wasting any more time on reckless fantasies will lead to this project collapsing out of the top 1000.
You betting on SMTs or some blogging modification to make people flock to HIVE? lol, cmon.
ETH 2.0 is still going to be expensive as fuck assuming it remains to gain popularity, Binance is still going to be a centralized bullshit chain running effectively on one box for all we know and never heard of Arbitrum so will have to look that one up, thanks for the lead. :D
To be 100% honest with you I wish I could see everything with such pessimism, but in all honesty if you don't think adding this sort of functionality to the chain isn't going to drastically improve demand, attract more users and make it far more competitive amongst other blockchains then I don't know what to tell you.. The recipe is basically perfect for making HIVE more valuable and evolving beyond the niche blogging thing it's known for.
Best case scenario I can tag you in this post a year from now and make you eat your hat.
Worst case scenario HIVE ends up with the ability to run properly decentralized smart contracts.
Don't take me as having a bit of fun with this as me not appreciating your take on the whole thing. I don't expect you to support something that you think is pointless, but at the end of the day I think this side chain once seamlessly integrated into HIVE will create an incredible amount of opportunity here.
The use for this already exists. I personally need this to decentralize my lending contracts. That is enough motivation for me. Opening the sidechain up to the whole crypto community is just a sweet bonus.
I feel like I've been told this a thousand times by multiple people in 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20 and now 21. Whatever, you can continue ignoring me, I know I've done my bit to push Steem and Hive towards a sustainable direction*. Meanwhile, I'll do my cheap, decentralized smart contract transactions on Optimistic Ethereum and other rollups. If you don't know what Optimistic Ethereum or Arbitrum is, it just shows you simply haven't done your basic research.
*PS: And no, this does not involve "SMT or blogging modification to make people flock to Hive". That ship has long sailed.
There is a huge difference in how this all works for me as a developer in comparison to you the consumer when it comes being able to keep up with all the crazy shit going on within a network I don't really care for beyond the technology it's based off of. No one is going to put a gun to your head and insist on using the Hive virtual machine over whatever is currently making eth maxis froth.
I like the tech, not a fan of the governance and skeevy HYIP DeFi shit that comes with it but it has more positives than drawbacks to have the functionality.
Telos has built a similar concept and have been reaching out to me for collaboration with the hive blockchain.
https://telos.net/telos-ethereum-virtual-machine/
Worth a look.
I beleive they are based on a similar WASM stack which found it's roots in Telos case as an EOS fork I believe? I'll go have some convo with them here shortly so see what they can offer on their chain as far as interfaces go to hook it up with ours.
I don't know the technical side of things but they are an EOS fork so I think that you are right.
I have a hive twitter account and get people reaching out to me often enough. There has been some approached from the telos community and devs over the past couple of weeks looking to make some bridges with the #hive community so I will just be seeing who and where they might add some value to our chain and vise versa.
I was just sent a message on this subject and knew you were working on something similar already so thought i would pass it on.
Voted and rehived. This is a very much needed project. Far too many of us are stuck with projects/games etc we are locked out of. Or, we are held hostage from being able to use any eth.
Yep. Majority of the developers on HIVE are either working on the core code or on stuff they thought would be more useful than building this.. :P
How would you say this is diff from Hive-Engine smart contracts?
I interested on how current hive account can use this sidechain. Would you need new private keys or could you "reuse" your current keys like hive-engine does?
It differs greatly from Hive-Engine due to the fact it's distributed computing on a decentralized Virtual Machine Stack rather than base58 encoded javascript running independently on boxes and comparing hashes. The technical difference is immense.
The goal is to implement a bit of custom code in regards to accounts and addresses borrowing some magic from the Ethereum ENS. Noticed a few forks of ETH were able to use keys similar to what we use here so will hopefully leverage that.
You are Steve Jobs and Bill Gates in Hive. You can change the future. I heartily thank you.
I'm flattered you'd compare me to two absolutely despicable men. <3 lol
Not very enlightened about the EVM but know the potential of this. Real Banger for Hive if implemented right, which is a very difficult & resourceful task it seems. Good Luck man!
Had some break throughs today centered arouund cross chain communications and remotely triggering the sidechain on my local EVM stack.. So progress!
Will be releasing some neat information in the next few days once I can show you it all in a way that drives home how fucking awesome this is going to be.
BRING IT ON!
If this can be accomplished it will be a very good thing for Hive, and everyone really, because ETH gas fees are way too high. I voted to support this!
Not a matter of if.. It is totally possible albeit taking a bit more reverse engineering and time than just firing up a EVM instance that uses it's own token.. But the payout for the entire chain should make up for that.
I'll be following along to try and understand the tech involved in making this happen. I'm a very small Hive dev, just bots and simple games/projects, but I'll be watching and maybe I can be involved somehow. I do think this will be good for the entire Hive chain.
You're me a couple years ago developing scripts and smaller sites. Don't worry about it, the biggest thing is the want to learn. :)
You have my vote as soon as I find the proposal :)
Thanks for the support!
You can view a link here that should let you vote it:
https://peakd.com/proposals/164
Cheers!
Thanks all set!
You're welcome. Getting the proposal link took me a bit longer than expected due to forgetting the 1$ HBD fee on all proposals over 60 in length. :)
I saw your comment about that but by the time I was about to make a trade it seemed like it was already taken care of. Too slow for me lol
All good man! Highly appreciate that. Yeah I asked @hiveqa after posting that comment and he was kind enough to give me a hand till tomorrow.
I've got to go get Hive.Loans fixed up and see who all wants to help get HSC going here in the hive.blue chat. Man I'm excited for the next few months coming up here on HIVE once all these things are launched in the wild. :)
If we can utilize HIVE for gas and create a side chain like BSC, I can't just keep on imagining the possibilities & opportunities we are going to create for this ecosystem. A project like CubDeFi can use it as a base asset just like they are using BNB for now. Not just the price of the token, but we might be able to push the whole community towards glory. Vote Casted!!! I am up for it. This is so amazing @klye.
Hell yeah, thanks for the support.
Indeed I share your enthusiasm and see how greatly this will completely change the picture on how HIVE is used and how we attract users.
CubDefi could certainly migrate over quite easily and would gladly have em running on a side chain that supports our community over putting money in binance pockets.
This has my vote. Keep it up Klye!
lol that logo is just greasy looking.. i like it.
Thanks for the support sir.
Voted. It sounds interesting all that can be achieved with the HSC. Thanks for the effort and for explaining it in such an understandable way.
It's the next logical step in making HIVE competitive at the higher echelons of crypto currencies. :)
Hopefully as I build and post about it even better understanding of what is going on and how all the tech magic works to create the system becomes clearer.
voted. I want this to happen.
It most certainly will happen now that the idea is set in place to be built and the community is catching wind of it. :D
Ok... let's go. Eager to see what comes out of a chain like this. Sounds too good to be true, and why no one was pulling out the proposal like this before.
For me looks like a no-brainer.
Sounds like it's too good to be true is the exact same thing Vitalik thought about ETH when he came up with the concept.
I think people weren't looking at what teh market was demanding but rather focusing on what they wanted in HIVE functionality.
Sure is a no brainer when you think about it.. I simply think nobody was really thinking about it. This whole idea was born out of my own need to decentralize account as collateral lending contracts which up until that point was somthing nobody thought of either.
It's innovation driving innovation mixed with an honest observation of market trend over the past few years.
I'm certain this is possible, certainly wouldn't bother making a proposal and doing all the prior research into the feasibility of the whole thing if I didn't.
Voted.
Does Hive Smart Chain sound better than Hive Side Chain?
Just a thought.
By the way, good write up. You didnt tech out and blow over us non-techies heads.
Great job.
Hard to say! Either sounds fine to me and if people were more likely to call it one thing or the other that would be fine. Personally just referring to it as HSC as it's way less typing.
Hive Smart Chain sounds more in the direction of smart contracts. So i like smart chain more :)
Also, people hear it and think " ah like binance one"
Alright, make it happen man, you're the only proposal I have a vote to support ;)
It won't be just me behind all of this. Attempting this as a solo developer would be silly and already had a few fellow developers approach me with intent of helping get this thing going. Pretty lucky in that respect. This should be a turning point for HIVE once it's up and going.. Very exciting, at least to me anyway.
Thank you for the support. <3
Voted! This will really change things in big ways for our beloved Hive,thank you for your work!
It will completely reshape the ecosystem and the market demand for HIVE.
No need to thank me. Thank you for supporting this and seeing how awesome this could be.
Voted and rehived!
Thank you kindly!
Wow what an idea!
Apprecaited. I figured this may be one of the only ways to have HIVE get on top of this "DeFi" hype train going on while offering the community the ability to become part of consensus of the network by bonding hive in the network to become block producers. It's my understanding that blocktrades is also working on smart contract support too, but as a hivemind extension. Given not a whole lot of people have hardware laying around or HIVE instances running to get Hivemind going to run his version I'd create a side chain that would be easier to decentralize and not favour those only those with prior sysadmin skills.
If you don't mind I would like to read proposal 164 on the next @hivecoffee stream, I want to get some of these almost-funded proposals up to 100% if I can help. I think at this point Ethereum is here to stay, where it goes from here who knows. Good idea @klye
Sure! I appreciate the support and you helping spread the word. CUrrently focused on getting Hive.Loans kicked out the door into open beta testing in the next week or so, then after that will shift attention to HSC.
<3
Bagus