Look this has been fun, but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere so long as you aren't taking into account what I'm saying, and keep re-defining what my argument is to derail the point. I apologize if my wording has been unclear at some point, but you know full well what I'm getting at, and that's not what you're addressing. This is intellectually dishonest of you, but aside form that I appreciate your civility in this discussion, and would be happy to continue it should you actually address what I'm saying.