You keep bringing up examples of things that harm people, and talk about using force to stop that. "Government" is NEVER limited to such defensive force. It ALWAYS uses immoral aggression, in the name of "taxation" and "legislation" and "regulation." When someone commits force or fraud, ANYONE has the right to do what it takes to stop that. It doesn't take politician scribbles ("laws") or special "authority" to make it justified. If you really meant your final answer to that final question, you are ALREADY a voluntaryist, and don't know it.
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What is the difference between the government claiming to use defensive force and actually using excessive force and individuals or private organizations doing that under free market anarchy?
I keep bringing examples and you keep deciding on not addressing them.
And what happens? Everybody would agree on what was right and wrong? Rightful violence between people until market equilibrium? I keep asking how do you solve that practically and you keep telling me that ANYONE has the right to solve that problem. I find zero practicality in your answer. That's why I remain convinced that your position is utopian. I don't find it immoral, I find it *unfeasible.
The difference--the ONLY difference--THE difference--that makes ALL the difference ... is that "government" is imagined to have rights that you and I do NOT. It is imagined to have the moral right to INITIATE VIOLENCE in situations where normal people have no such right. In short, the belief in "government" and political "authority" is the belief that some people should be ALLOWED to do what would be universally recognized as IMMORAL if anyone else did it.
Now try to explain to me how any of the scenarios you brought up would be improved by giving some people societal permission to use immoral violence.
I apologize for the hugely belated reply, but I decided to finally come back to this discussion.
As I said before, the idea that humans could coexists with no organization, no violence at all and no coercion is utopian. It can be morally superior on every single level, but if it is impossibe to implement, it remains an non-viable idea. That's what makes it an utopia in my book. It simply cannot work like that as just a few bad actors can get it out of whack.
Having government is not perfect, but I do think it's moral to have them as they provide a better state of being with lower amounts of violence and harm than anarchy would. My assertion here is that if there is no legal system, there would be more violence. The Wild West had less government and it was more violent.
The thing with government is that it shouldn't be just any government, it should be a democracy with proper laws.
"What is the difference between the government claiming to use defensive force and actually using excessive force and individuals or private organizations doing that under free market anarchy?"
The difference is that the concepts of government and authority try to justify these acts of aggression by calling them "law".
Is there not one solution you can think of, of how this could work without government?
Yes, I don't see a better solution than government that can be expected to be stable. What I usually hear as suggestions are unstable systems that could only work if everybody participating agreed not to abuse them. But this is standard for utopias. Communism would work perfectly if everybody agreed with it and was willing to participate.
No it's not an agreement where everybody needs to agree. It's the absence of the "agreement" that violence can be justified in the name of government or anything else mafia slavery.
It's also not a constitution, or other paper.
But you can believe of course what you want you can advocate for a violence. I just don't believe that they, or you, or I, can legitimately use of violence, to get someone to do what you want or what you want me to pay for..... that's all.
Thanks for the reply :)
I think you are advocating for a situation where anybody would be able to use violence against anybody unchecked. Saying I'm advocating for things I'm not is just twisting my words or inventing things that I'm not saying.
What I'm saying is that you are advocating for an utopia. Sure, an utopia can sound great when you imagine it as a perfect little world, the thing is you just can't really propose a mechanism that would keep that world better even than the imperfect world we live in. I just don't want to advocate for solutions that I don't think could ever be successfully implemented in practice with satisfactory results.
Yeah, it took me only 18 days :/ Still I got to it eventually.
No. Looking at the replies under this post ;) I think by now you know the NAP
Also no.
There would still be real criminals that need to be dealt with.
Well it would be a big improvement if some people in costume stopped doing immoral acts.
Don't worry sometimes I reply on very old posts too.
I think we've gotten to a point where we understand each other's position, but we simply disagree. I'm well aware of the NAP but for a society to be founded on it, everybody should be practicing it or it breaks down. Just like communism.
And how do you do that armed with just the NAP? That's what I don't get that's where I think it all breaks down and becomes unsustainable.