The ridiculousness marches on!
A message to and about the political crusaders who claim it's their way or the highway. And the entitled view that they deserve the support of everyone.
Well, again, here we have anarchy proof of concept 101. None of us are killing each other over these disagreements, or becoming violent.
I wonder how long these folks will last in non-violence however, when it comes to imposing their choice of a leader and said leader's centrally planned policies on everyone else.
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~KafkA
Graham Smith is a Voluntaryist activist, creator, and peaceful parent residing in Niigata City, Japan. Graham runs the "Voluntary Japan" online initiative with a presence here on Steem, as well as DTube and Twitter. (Hit me up so I can stop talking about myself in the third person!)
I can't imagine anarchy would be the norm, mostly i only see it in the movie , but in reality i'm not sure , maybe we can build a new system out there somewhere in mars, if it's impossible to impose it here on earth.
Impose it? What's to impose? I don't seek to control others in any way. That's really the dividing line. Either you want to control others or you do not. I do not. We can still walk away from the controllers and live voluntarily and peacefully with others. It just takes brave warriors to do it. Where are the warriors?
I agree 100%. There are so many roads to anarchy. The political system is just one of many. Sad to see Kokesh supporters stuck in thinking elections are the only way to change things. "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
There is one thing about Libratarianism that has me puzzled.
When libratarians speak of ownership, like ones' property, who deems that ownership into existence and who enforces the ownership if challenged?
Great questions, @novacadian.
Property ownership and the concept of “property” in general in Voluntaryism/libertarianism all starts from the reality of individual self-ownership.
That is to say, you, and no one else, is the captain of your “ship.” When you speak, move your body, etc, it is a direct action. Nobody can do this more directly than you. For all practical intents and purposes, and in all reality, you own yourself.
All humans, unless neurologically damaged, acknowledge this, even if only implicitly. This is why we know things such as murder and violent aggression are wrong. They “steal” or harm someone’s self. Their body.
Property is simply an extension of this self-ownership. Since I own my body, if I use this body and use my time to, say, build a cabin from unowned materials on unowned land, I now have most direct objective link to this cabin. I mixed my body’s labor with the land and raw materials. As such, it is now mine.
Property and ownership, when it comes down to it, aren’t “deemed” by anybody as much as they are direct consequences of reality itself.
As far as who enforces ownership, it could be the owner, it could be a friend or family member of the owner, it could be a complete stranger. In established towns and communities with voluntary systems of governance (non-coercive), it could be some sort of protection firm or private security group.
Thank you for your reply, @kafkanarchy84.
Looks to me like insecurity and challenging others' insecurities is becoming more prevalent amongst people who support libertarianism, voluntaryism, agorism, and other freedom inspired movements.
Like you said I imagine in real life each person is adding value to their community....this is what we should be focusing more of our attention towards.
Hmmm
Your reply is thought provoking, and I thank you for it. Is my objective, my primary purpose in life, to add value to my community though? I would argue that it is not. That should not be the direct objective. Instead, the objective, furthering individual liberty, being the proper, just, and noble objective, adds value to my community by me seeking it. Yes?
Thanks...your argument in my opinion is correct that adding value to the community shouldn't be the primary direct objective. I only point out that we can all do better in creatively including the others in our lives toward the ultimate.
My conclusion has evolved into the idea that an anarchist's views are moral, not political. Politics acts on morality to pervert it and allow otherwise moral people to do immoral things, through proxy or directly.
Yes, I agree.
Hmmmm.... This is another one of those thought provoking replies. Otherwise moral people to do immoral things? I would counter, as friend, that moral, truly moral people, would never seek to do immoral things through other people or a system made by other people.
I do not seek to control other people directly or through a proxy. That's moral. I refuse to accept that politics is an excuse to pervert proper morality. We cannot allow people to use anything as an excuse. That's a very very slippery slope indeed.
Damn skippy! Fuck voting, they can keep it.
Wasn't kokesh a voluntarist himself just a couple years ago? Claiming to be non violent and non coercive? And now he wants us to force him on everyone. No thanks bud.
Thanks for being a damn fine example of anarchy in action. You're an awesome example in this space for what we should work towards. Full steem ahead :)
Absolutely. The political process is not gonna change anything, putting such a focus on it is keeping people from understanding.
That said I will probably still vote for kokesh. He wont win so it doesnt really matter and i think it is a good chance to express my disgust for the system. If he actually had a chance to win we would no longer be voting at that point anyways.
I actually feel the opposite way. All politics does is enrage me, there is no getting anywhere, we really have no control over anything, it's just designed to waste peoples time and keep them angry, mostly it's just a bunch of useless debates that really accomplish nothing
You should watch the video.
It sucks that your getting so much heat for the path you have chosen. There is a big push from Kokesh in the terms of timelines. He hopes to see a sizeable change within his lifetime. The other thing driving some of the push has to do with existing conditions.
The people who are directly inverse of volunteerism are willing and engaged in playing power politics. There is no limitations on crafting power and public policy against volunteerism. It's a form of aggression coming from people that don't care their aggression is aimed at others. I have been trying to think of a solution to that. It usually looks like: 'it will be ok when enough people defect out of that system'. That may be a long term outlook, but the aggression is happening today, right now. It kind of becomes a problem of equilibrium. How much aggression should be applied to the aggressors, and what should that look like?
I like Kokesh in the fact that he is applying some back pressure to the typical aggressions seen by many regular people That said, followers vary, and the authority/praise some are willing to lend to Adams cause is considerable.
Right. This is why I view pouring more resources into the violent system, in the long term “hope” that a “leader” will save everyone via the very mechanisms of the same violent system isn’t really a viable approach. Not to mention, the “plan” Adam has proposed is not compatible with foundational Voluntaryist principle.
Adam himself has made the same types of implications and non-arguments I discussed in the video.
I get what you're saying but all of that stuff isn't necessarily making the state irrelevant. Crypto currencies aren't immune to the tentacles of the state. We're still being taxed... If we are to abolish or at the very least return the state back to a limited entity with specific functions that cannot be expanded then at some point we're going to have to engage it politically. The question is how do we go about doing that in a way that is going to actually affect change? I have my ideas but that is something that I rarely, if at all, ever hear talked about.
No. “We” are not going to have to do anything. You can do what you want. I’ll do what I want.
I didn’t say that cryptocurrencies would end the state, to be fair. You are correct about the infiltration and the disgusting “taxation” which is antithetical to the whole concept of financial dignity and privacy for which many of these currencies were created in the first place. The state is actually attempting to co-opt many cryptocurrencies.
Nor do I think that things like farmer’s markets alone will “end the state.” However, those pushing the political action end of things (using an immoral system to establish a moral one) often talk about getting a “majority” to vote for a leader who will change things. If the majority of individuals simply opted out of politics, became more self-sufficient, and did not comply, the state could not continue to function. These political crusaders will then say, “even with a majority, the state will still target you!”
I wonder why they don’t think this applies to majority political action as well.
Either way, the point is that the paradigm is shifting. All this talk of what “we” have to do is the problem. Individuals are already doing it. If someone wants to politic, go ahead. Just don’t say that the individuals choosing not to are “doing nothing.”
It’s funny how even in self-proclaimed individualists, the collectivist mindset remains. As if there could only be one way by which to address the problem and deal with it.
When I use “we” I’m not specifically including you. So, I’m not sure how your inflammatory and arrogant opinion on “self-proclaimed individualists” having collectivist mindsets is relevant to my comment.
To be fair, I didn’t say that you said crypto currencies would end the state. You said that crypto currency along with a few other things is making the state irrelevant and I correctly pointed out that this isn’t necessarily the case.
“If the majority of individuals simply opted out of politics, became more self-sufficient, and did not comply, the state could not continue to function.” What do you mean by simply opt out of politics and not comply?
I wasn’t really trying to have a go at you personally with this. Was thinking of the individuals I’m talking about in the video mainly.
This is true. Sorry about the misunderstanding here.
I mean stop lending credence to the force-based political system by participating/pouring money, time, and resources into it, become more self-sufficient, and stop complying with the demands of the state as much as possible, and en masse.
"What do you mean by simply opt out of politics and not comply?
I mean stop lending credence to the force-based political system by participating/pouring money, time, and resources into it, become more self-sufficient, and stop complying with the demands of the state as much as possible, and en masse."
Right. Simply ignoring those who are proponents of the state while being an example of morality and using more efficient means will show others who are open enough the path of voluntaryism. Living your life and teaching those who want to learn is the most effective means, rather than arguing with the insane ramblings of collectivists.
How much time do we have before we are no longer able to resist the state? It's not like they're resting on their laurels, the assault is continuous and more severe as each day passes.
Leading an exemplary life .... that's as virtuous as it gets imho.
But for a real paradigm to take place, the masses need to learn the truth and to me anything that educates can only help.
Seriously, do you not think we have a time issue?
If not for that, I would have zero disagreement with you. After all, Adam has admitted that he's compromising some principles because he believes the good of what he's doing outweighs the bad.
Compromise... hate it, that's how we got to where we now are. But if it takes a compromise to get rid of a compromise... under the circumstances, screw it.
These are extreme times and I think they call for extreme measures up to and including using a corrupt system against itself. Playing their game in violation of certain principles with the sole purpose of then being able to honor those principles completely once the interference has been removed.
What you do is not nothing, quite the opposite from what I've heard you talk about in your videos. Nothing but respect.
What Adam is doing is not nothing either, nothing but respect there as well.
two different paths, good will all around from what I see
Taking the path you lay out will lead to becoming the monster you fight with high probability.
"But for a real paradigm to take place, the masses need to learn the truth and to me anything that educates can only help." <----That is precisely the key. This is where I think politically engaging the system can make a difference. If we can get rid of the dept of education and the slimey government indoctrination schools that they fund with stolen money, then we have a chance. If we can get rid of these government schools and educate new generations of children in the ways of individual liberty we’ll have a fighting chance.
Of course there is a time issue. Which is why playing masturbatory games with evil political mechanisms isn't going to do anything very potent to affect real change and is a bad idea, in my opinion. Let's wait 'til 2020! Yay! Until then, donate to the LP! Fuck that man.
You just demonstrated that you don't understand the meaning of "principle."
Wow, just boom, you're wrong. Good talk, let's do it again sometime. lol
You want to test my logic because I'd love to test yours. We could start with you answering the question that I asked you that you left hanging.
I didn't push, not like that, just let it go in kindness - you know... didn't want to badger you.. but don't need to worry about that now.
no questions left unanswered this time or.... was that just a random insult that you can't back up?
Do you realize what it's going to take for your way to work? People will have to become mostly self-sufficient and how is that going to happen when every system in place prevents it. People are not going to give up their paycheck if it means they'll starve to death.
There is not enough time for that to work, it has zero chance. Power concedes nothing without a demand! The principle is righteous but not if it stands in the way of a solution.
Will we not be under more tyranny tomorrow than we are today? It's not getting better, it's getting worse every day.
@adamkokesh is making that demand, who else is? Most people can't even spell anarchy let alone ever really considered the question, "Do we really need a government?".
Adam is spreading that message farther and wider than anyone else I know and why you don't seem to appreciate that is beyond me. It's faulty thinking imho.
Oh, and that utter nonsense that everyone is so stupid that they'll equate running for president to end the government validates government or any of its systems is .. not logical
At the end of the day, it will be of little consequence that you stood by your principle when it sabotaged your last best chance to leave your kids/ our kids a chance for a better future.
If it went down like that, a person would know what they could do with those principles.
Why do you imagine it’s either “my way” or “Adam’s way,” I wonder.
And I am not sure who I called for to “give up their paycheck.”
I remember now why I stopped engaging last time.
To each his own. Whatever you wish to do to be free in non-violence, more power to you.
I actually had your account muted because of this type of straw-manning, etc. When you are prepared to not spew these silly implications that I am “missing my last best chance” to not sabotage my child’s future, maybe I can begin to take your argumentation seriously.
Why do you hallucinate there to only be one way?
And do you imagine that all of this will end without the state putting up a fight? Just because “anarchy” now has had a political veneer slapped on the front of it? Why? If you wish to support Adam’s plan to centrally dissolve things. Go ahead!
I don’t. That’s all. And that is 100% okay. This is not a collectivist movement, issue, or concern.
I never said those were the only two ways, yours or Adams, they are the two we are currently discussing are they not?
Let's get specific. You said Adam wasn't telling the truth. I asked what he was lying about. You never answered. Now would be a good time. Let's be completely direct and honest here.
A few times you've made statements that I don't understand this or that. You're wrong and if you will actually answer a question directly, I'll prove it.
Answered several times in a multitude of posts.
What are you afraid of that you're unable to answer a simple question. You're going to run again after telling me all the things I don't know. that's messed up.
make your statement please
Just state it one more time here in the interests of continuity. Make sure we're talking about the same exact thing.
and one last thing.. if you're going to make remarks like that and then not allow a person to defend themselves, perhaps you should just refrain from making those remarks. what do you think? seems fair
I have every confidence in my logic and I've thought about all this stuff three ways from Sunday. You don't know me. Why don't you pick on Jeff Berwick because I'm in total agreement with his common sense regarding Adam's campaign. Tell him he doesn't understand what principle means.
And...Morgan Freeman to tell me I am “whining”? Lol. Blessings to you.
I thought it was funny and good natured. blessing to you as well
I think enough is enough, do not let the conflict become part of life, we already feel it in Aceh indonesia turbulent, no peace.
let's jointly solve this problem quickly
regards
G'day peaceful parent.
an up-vote for you
Nice!!
nice clip ... keep it that way
you seem like you are missing an opportunity here Graham, when these folks challenge you instead of frustrating yourself telling them why they are wrong offer them a better path. Perhaps they are desperate for another way but they don't understand the alternatives. Reading his hypocrisy it's easy to point out the flaws but doing so might be leading to less productive discussions than you want to have. Tell them how you accomplish the goals you share. Share your plan with them.
Already have man. These folks assuming there must be one “plan,” are missing the point entirely.
I wasn't assuming that but I was assuming you had a plan. You may have to tell them over and over. Game theory suggests a minimum of two times while advertising research tells us that 7 is the magic number.
Hey man!. I'm up in Yokohama and just got on Steemit, but I'm an OG anarchist (in my own mind at least) - semi-retired, but still. Anyway, trying to get up to speed with what's happening on this platform. I started writing for http://shingetsunewsagency.com/author/andy/ recently - maybe you want to contribute? Anyway let me know if you want to talk for a minute.
Our world political sphere is getting more and more tragic and its affiliates is affecting all human endeavors....