In my state of New Jersey, a story broke last week and the names of 188 Catholic Priests that were found guilty of sexual assault were released. These scumbags were practicing at various churches around the state for decades and only now, were their names released. Many of them on the list are thankfully dead.
Now, I didn’t always hate religion. I grew up in a Catholic household. I was Baptized, was Confirmed, and took part in Communion. I attended Church every Sunday, participated in CYO, and attended CCD. I just drifted far from all of it as I got older and I am honestly thankful that I did.
My Church growing up was Holy Spirit in Union, NJ and by all accounts was a nice Church. I have a ton of memories there from weddings to funerals to baptisms. I only remember the name of one of the priest’s at the parish while growing up and attending...Father Chuck. He seemed like a nice guy and I remember him being kinda the head honcho in these parts.
So as I was reading through the articles regarding these vultures, I noticed it mentioned that Holy Spirit in Union had several priests on the ol’ list. So as I searched through the names, I came across a Father Charles Hartling...better known as Father Chuck. I even googled the name and found a pic. Yup...it was him. It didn’t go into details but it stated that he had 3 victims under him. That’s just what we know for sure. The bad news is that he practiced there while my siblings and I and all of our friends were growing up. Now I was never alone with this waste of flesh, and I don’t know of anyone that was personally affected, but it happened...and possibly to someone that one of us knows. That made me feel ill once I saw his stupid fucking face.
The good news is that this monster is no longer here. He checked out in 2012 according to records. Dead and gone...only leaving the carnage that he created for several individuals behind.
Fast forward a couple days later and we are having some family over for dinner. I’m sitting at the table with my dad and my sister Michele. Michele is my oldest sister and we are pretty close. She also has a sharp memory, so I wanted to see what she remembered if anything at all, about good ol’ Father Slimebucket.
I tell them about the article mentioning once again...188 names in NJ alone and she cuts me off and says “let me guess, Father Chuck is on the list?”. I was surprised and shook my head yes. She told me she wasn’t surprised at all. She said that he had an anger problem that she saw first hand for years at the CYO functions. Chuck was the head of that and worked closely with those participating. She then went on to tell me that he was very authoritative and downright demanding and she took none of his shit. She said he hated her as he couldn’t control her and that she always got shitty vibes from him.
As we are discussing it in detail a bit more, my pops chimes in stating he only remembered one Priest from when he was younger from his school days at Our Lady Help of Christians in East Orange, NJ. He blurted out “Ernst...I don’t remember his first name but Father Ernst”. So I go to the list and it literally opens up to this....
What are the odds?!? That at the table, we all remembered 2 Priests and they BOTH were on the list. Luckily this sack of scummy shit is long dead too, but it gave me chills seeing that word next to victims. Multiple
My pops said he didn’t remember anything odd but anything that stood out, but he was still pretty much shocked. We all sat there kinda shocked to be honest. Just at the sheer fact that we were batting 2 for 2 thus far. Sad!
Now look, I’m not saying all Priests do this shit... of course not. Hell, I have a good friend in the Seminary as we speak and he’s on here. You might have seen him around these parts. He goes by the name @kiddiddler69. Im kidding assholes...settle down. He’s @phoenix32 and he’s about as good of a human being and friend that anyone could possibly ask for. Him and I have debated this topic in the past a bit and I know it bothers him. So @phoenix32, id love your thoughts and input on this. Sorry to throw you on the spot brother...but I’d love to know what the overall sentiment is in your class among not only your peers who are working their way up and trying to make a difference, but from some of the old blood that’s been around these parts for some time.
I know there are good men of the cloth. That’s not what this piece was about. But I do feel that the “Catholic Church” as an organization has handled this entire topic in the poorest manner possible and is still showing no signs of doing anything really positive to try to fix this...not that the past can be fixed. Hopefully what I’m saying makes sense. I dunno...I just know that it’s disappointing as hell to find out that a prominent figure from your youth was a vile animal that took advantage of vulnerable children. I’m glad he’s dead...and not that I believe in heaven or hell, but I hope that if I’m wrong...that he will be burning for eternity and getting what him and those of his nature deserve.
Religious institutions force something on mere human beings they can't handle - being isolated, being literally given 'godly' powers (they must feel untouchable), going without human touch/sex. I'm not religious, I'm fine if anyone chooses to be, but I actively hate the constructs and power built around religion. Lot of victims there :-/ Just glad that even though there were 2 of these men known by you and your family no-one became a victim in that sense.
Yes...here in Ireland, a family's eldest son would be made to become a priest, whether he liked it or not. As for nuns, one of the girls would have the honor, both would bring honor to the family. So you can imagine how this turns out for those who wouldn't choose the profession otherwise. It's a terrible thing and it's slavery in a way. Some of these were just completely fucked in the head, with people above them also completely fucked in the head. That's not a good place to be...
So sad.
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I agree with you 100%. I personally do not understand the logic behind telling these men that they cannot have a normal relationship. I’m not saying that would solve the problem but I bet it would be a start. The isolation aspect of not allowing a human being to partake in a normal loving and fealty relationship with another is perhaps something that leads to things like this happening?!? I dunno. I’m with ya though.
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@blewitt, you and I have definitely talked about this, and while I have not regularly talked about being in the seminary in my posts, I know that I have that up on my banner, so it isn't really that much of a secret. So not really on-the-spot, don't sweat that, brother.
So the first thing that I am going to do is talk about the victims of these wolves-in-sheeps-clothing. I am heartbroken that anyone has ever had to suffer such abuse, regardless of the source. I have met victims of sexual abuse and violence, and I see how it can twist someone up and, well, ruin their lives. Healing is a different course for each person, and it can take a lifetime to no longer feel like a victim but a survivor. I'm going through it, although not at the hands of clergy.
I will not waste time or insult anyone with the usual arguments, which include: (1) that was the psychology of the time period, where it was thought that they could be "cured"; (2) that was just the way things were done 30/40/50/60/70 years ago; (3) it is not only isolated to the Catholic Church. Those are not helpful, and this is about what happened with the Catholic clergy; I'm not about to start deflecting anything here. On the other, I will not roll over and play dead on this when it comes to priests and deacons who are truly innocent - painting every Catholic cleric with the same brush as these 188 is a generalization and a stereotype.
I will definitely add that the Catholic Church has taken massive steps to help prevent any of these atrocities from happening in the future. It is not a perfect system, but no system is. I can give a good example of the protection in action: there was a SNAFU with the paperwork for one of my classmates. He had passed all of his background checks in the Fall, and he is a really good guy. Between the semesters, his paperwork was misprocessed. So he was not allowed to go out and do his apostolate (internship) until he went through the documentation and criminal history review process all over again. In short, we (as a Church) are taking no chances. And I, even though I am not a cleric yet, still refuse to put myself in a position in which there can even be a question - not just for myself, but to make certain that no parent ever has to question, wonder, or fear. Good practices now, as a seminarian, mean that I will have good habits as (God willing) a priest - habits that will put the safety and protection of children above all else. Otherwise, I would be failing as a priest.
There is nothing that can justify the behavior of those 188. I offer no explanation, no justification, and no excuse - because there is absolutely none whatsoever. So please, please, please do not think that I am condoning the behavior of these men. Please do not think that I am excusing anything. Whether or not these men are truly remorseful is between them and God.
As this is being discussed often and deeply in the seminary, I can honestly say that my classmates, the classes ahead and behind us, and the priest faculty members are all sick from this. Not sick of it, as in we are sick of talking about it, let's change the subject and I promise that not a single person has said that, because we full well know the gravity of the abuse and that we are going to be looked at as if we are culpable. There is anger towards the perpetrators and profound sadness for the victims. The Catholic Church is not closing the gates after the cows have left the pen; there is a concerted effort to make certain that no one ever has to suffer at the hands of a bad clergyman, especially in so horrible a manner. And that effort is not to protect the institution, but to protect the innocent children.
tl;dr - Seminarians and priests are pissed off at the bad guys, our hearts are breaking for the victims/good guys, and we refuse to allow any more innocent victims to be hurt on our watch.
First off thank for responding brother. I know this is a super serious and touchy (no pun intended) topic. We have had our conversations and debates in the past and while we are for the most part very often full of opposing views on religion as a whole, we both respect one another enough to understand each other.
I think my main problem with it obviously besides it happening in the first place and so frequently, is the lack of any REAL SUBSTANTIAL movement by the church. Publicly they haven’t done a damn thing. Why not come clean. Rip the bandaid off and deal with the immediate pain, knowing that the healing will come later. I think people would respect it a lot more if they literally rounded up EVERYONE who is guilty and 86’d em. Let alone charges pressed and involving the law and all that. But just admit. Public statements. The pope is the head of your organization. Correct?!? Why isn’t he making a call to rid the scum?!? Why aren’t more priests outing the bad seeds ?!? This all still seems like damage control and not a real call to try to fix things. I think that’s my issue with it. I agree it will never be a perfect system but it can be a hell of a lot better than what’s happening right now. The people here are the public and almost everyone’s comment is that the church has and is still handling it. They are not really admitting there’s a problem. Unless I missed it?!? I think that’s the issue.
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I know that back in October, the Bishops in the United States were ready to make a statement, to "pull off the bandaid" as you deftly worded it. Someone stopped them, and I am not 100% certain as to why.
I know that seminarians and priests are required to report anything. I know that my home diocese (which is mapped based on geography of county and state lines) has rules in place for reporting both to the law enforcement and to the diocesan officials (in that order) to make certain that no further damage is done. Even if it turns out to be a false alarm, a miscommunication, or catching part of a conversation - if it is suspect, it is reported. More and more there are priests and seminarians who are opening their mouths when there is the slightest hint of danger to a child or to someone else. We are not hearing about it as much - either because the media ignores it, or because (and I pray to God this is the case) there are far, far less current instances that need reporting.
Granted, that does not address the meat of your question and the events and abuses that have previously transpired. The fact is that I, as a person, a Catholic, would like to see a definitive statement as well. There is a "sort of" admission that there is a problem, but there has been no concrete and definitive "YES THIS IS A PROBLEM AND HERE IS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO (1) PREVENT IT GOING FORWARD AND (2) HELP THE VICTIMS AND (3) DEAL WITH THE WOLVES." There have been more definitive statements at the diocesan levels (think states in the nation) than from the Vatican itself, as far as I know. We are waiting to see what comes of the meeting that just took place in February (2019).
I get ya. I just think it would ultimately bode better for the Church if they just went head on and admitted, cleaned, and rebuilt.
No argument here whatsoever.
Now thatI think about it, there is a comic book series dealing with this subject:
https://twitter.com/altered_boys
Interesting. Weirdly I never heard of it. Maybe I’ll stock a copy for the shop.
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Oh dang! Now I want to see the list. I grew up Catholic as well. Went to catholic school & church every Sunday. For some reason I fought about it with my dad for as long as I can remember. Saying things like how do you know you’re right. I bet bhuddists think they are right too. 😂🤣 I don’t remember any priests being creepers, but when you put a bunch of single men together and tell them they can’t have sex EVER.... the whole thing isn’t surprising.
Honestly, celibacy is not the issue. Married men who have healthy sex lives with their wives have also engaged in sexual abuse of children - even married Protestant pastors and married rabbis have engaged in such horrific acts. As seminarians, we are full well informed about what we are getting into when it comes to celibacy - some of us, who have lived out in the world, know about it better than others. It is not about not having sex - these men have deep psychological issues and would be engaging in abusing children regardless of the celibacy rules.
You dont think it plays ANY part of this? I do believe that a pedo is a pedo. But why is it So prominently found in this community? Do they think that by also doing God’s work that they are forgiven? I’d like your thoughts on that.
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I honestly believe that celibacy does not play a part in this at all. There are married men and women who have healthy sex lives in their marriage, and yet they go out and abuse children. Rabbis, Protestant ministers, Catholic priests and deacon, and any other cleric are as statistically likely to abuse a child as anyone else - teacher, coach, scout master, parent, uncle/aunt, grandparent.
The local fish rag actually has some unbiased reporting on this:
https://www.app.com/story/news/local/how-we-live/2019/02/23/catholic-priest-sexual-abuse-minors-crisis-mirrors-society/2969045002/
Honestly, the priests are getting the attention as they do because of the fact that they - like teachers, parents, uncles/aunts, coaches - are supposed to protect children, but the priests are called to do so with a higher authority (religiously speaking), and they have failed horribly.
Doing God's work will not bring them redemption. Only true remorse and penance can do that through God's mercy. Speaking for myself, I am not fit to judge these wolves for reasons like this: if they apologize, are they doing so because they were caught, or because they are truly remorseful? I cannot tell, I cannot see into their hearts. But even in their remorse, there is no way in hell that I am letting wolves back into the fold. Forgiveness is one thing - but that does not mean that I have to endanger others and make more victims.
Of course they are in every industry and all over. Not denying that. The world is a screwed up place. But people hold the Church to a higher standard. People turn there often when lost. Those that preyed on the innocents are the most vile of creatures.
Aye, like I said, they have failed horribly. Like, beyond words failure. To some degree, the Church should be held to that higher standard - when it comes to things like keeping children safe and not abusing them, I am all for that higher standard. There is never any excuse for endangering a child like that.
Word. 100%
this is surely te group who tries to present themselves as all the good of humanity which is making a big fat mess out of it..
disgusting...and scary that it is/was so close to you as well
Yeah just a nutty situation. I want to say I can’t believe it...but I totally can sadly.
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I am continually amazed at how the catholic church fails so hard at even trying to make amends. I grew up catholic too, all the sacraments blah blah blah. So thankful one of these predators never got to me or my brother. The catholic church, from the pope down, is the SHADIEST organization on the planet.
The sad part is that the actions of some (a large group nonetheless) have tainted the overall perception of ALL priests and that’s sad as I know there are good men out there trying to do good things. But the way the church had handled this...it’s just one colossal fuck up after another and has been for decades.
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Wow, I remember saying to you, this is why I couldn’t be religious anymore. I wasn’t so blunt and just said “child abuse”. I would like to say this stuff is isolated, but unfortunately it runs rampant. As in my parish we had a kid diddler(almost fell out of my chair when I read that!!) His name was brother Bob and my Mom even caught him in the act inappropriately touching my friend when they were wrestling around. She told me and even ask if anything like this happened to me. Also remember when they would just cover it all up? Once they found out a priest was diddling they would just transfer him, as opposed to turning them over to the authorities.
So I have to question your friend the priest and anyone who still goes or gives money to the church. Why are you supporting and or working for a pedophilia network? Doesn’t take a genius to know this stuff runs rampant, heck just a few years back the number 2 guy to the pope was caught with child porn, and a huge collection at that. For these people to say well we want to change it. To me that’s like joining the military for peace. Just ain’t gonna happen.
I would love to believe the conspiracies, that these men are just Satanist, trying to give the ultimate FU to God by doing this, especially if it happens in the church. Idk though, maybe it’s jut sick men and they flock to the church because it’s known to be accepted. That’s why I can’t go to church or even be religious, not that I don’t believe in a higher power. More of the fact that I can’t be told I’m being a sinner or given punishment for something simple like saying G dam. When the guy is probably diddling kids.
Idk how to even end this rant! This stuff gets me so mad. I guess like anything in life take the good things a learned and heck even the bad( so I can make sure it doesn’t happen to my kids) and move on.
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The constant cover ups and transfers to a new parish just enabled the situation to continue for so long. Embarrassing and disgusting.
Crazy that this happened so close to you as well. Brother Bob is scum and I hope he’s no longer in a position of power over kids. Actually hope he’s dead. Lol
I get what you are saying and for the most part agree but I will say that I do have deeply religious friends or family that feel as though they are doing the right thing by being a part of the religious machine. I have my good friend who has been kind enough to answer here already and I know he’s a wonderful amazing person, who is deeply connected to “God”. He just wants to make this world a better place.
I guess my problem is this...I hate shady cops but I also hate shady ass good cops that cover for the shit ones. Fuck it! Be the rat. If it gets the racist scumbag who is a loose cannon out of a position of power...good. He shouldn’t be there anyway. That’s my problem with cops. Bot enough speak out. They protect one another even when absolutely positively wrong. Now switch that with priests.
None of them speak out publicly about this. You want to earn the respect of the public back? Then clean house and out the scum. That’s just not happening and until it does on a major level, I don’t think public perception will change.
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Yea, there are a lot of good people in the Catholic Church. My Mom was one of those people, even after what she had seen. She had faith and would try to do the best she could to make the world a better place.
Probably my biggest problem, is why can’t people see the way I see things and just walk away. That if they are not cleaning house, the whole thing need to be destroyed because it is evil. Some people really need it though, I guess.
Yea good cops covering for bad cops is a tough position to be in. Life’s hard, it’s hard to figure out what you want to do. So you decide to help the public and be a police man. Turns out the department is a bunch of crooked cops, speak out and maybe lose your job, get black balled? 🤔 pretty sure I’m describing a movie I’ve see on Netflix. 😂😂 Basically what I’m trying to say is that it’s tough to go against the grain. Fix the system, no one really starts out thinking those things. It’s easy for me now, but I’m older and wiser.
So it’s easy to go along or not call stuff out, but if we are ever want to make things better, someone’s gonna have to!!
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Disgusting animals. I live in Ireland as you know and the first town I moved to (not a place where anyone would ever go really) is not only home to one of the largest prisons in Ireland, but also the town in Ireland with the largest (sexual)abuse case in the courts EVER. 130+ cases. 3 priests, two of which had been moved from a different town because of 'troubles' there... Nice one. They knew and moved them so they could make more victims elsewhere. One of those priests got 12 years in prison, came back out and then went back in for another 2 years for another guy who had come forward to the police after he shot and killed his own father. The 130+ cases, these are the ones that came forward. They were mostly boys, so there are possibly twice that number more victims that we don't know about or who never told a soul. I personally know three of these victims who never took it to court. If you'd walk around in that town, 1 out of 4 men who grew up there, between the ages of 30 and 48 is a victim... It absolutely BLEW my mind. It's something very dark, and you can feel that darkness in that place. Very sad how the Catholic church has handled things.
That’s my problem with it. How they’ve handled the situation up to this point has. Even a nightmare and embarrassing. Cover ups and such.
That’s crazy to hear about that town. This world is full of beauty but also vile monsters.
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Howdy sir blewitt! The Catholic church should do much more to stop this insane evil in it's tracks immediately. I agree with you that they couldn't have done a worse job in this area.
This is certainly a delicate subject and one on which a lot of people seem to have fairly polar viewa about (not the abuse of children, but the validity of the guilty verdicts).
This week in Australia there has been a lot in the news about Cardinal George Pell (one of the more powerful members of the Vatican if I believe what is written). He has been found guilty of tampering with a couple of alter boys in the mid 90s.
Since the verdict became public, there have been some very prominent people (former Prime Ministers, media personalities, pretty much anyone of note with a heavy far right agenda) who have publicly condemned the verdict and proclaimed their support of Pell. None of these people were in court to actually hear the evidence, so I'm not sure why they'd want to stick their necks out for him.
We have had his legal team stating that the charges should not be considered "aggravated sexual assault" because the accusation was of "vanilla penetration" - I mean what the actual fuck? The kid was too scared to fight back so it's less wrong????
Then there are those who have been gloating about his demise. While I think any kiddy fiddler is a pathetic piece of shit, I won't rejoice their convictions, because that means there had to have been victims. Victims that carry with them a life sentence.
There's also a lot of talk about the church being a "breeding ground" for these types. I'm not sure I believe that myself. Whilst it seems that the organisation does have a disproportionate number of rock spiders within its ranks, the fuckers are everywhere. I don't think the religion is the cause, however, but rather the historic anonymity and protection that the church was able to give these people.
The bastards are everywhere, and often the people you least expect. An acquaintance of mine took his own life last year, which came as a big surprise to me. He was always the happy husband and doting father. It was only when I talked to a workmate whose husband was fairly close to him, did I find out he was being investigated for child tampering and that the net was closing in on him. One of his best mates had no idea about this side of the guy. It still makes me feel sick thinking about it.
Finally on a slightly more entertaining note, here's a song done by Aussie musician Tim Minchin about George Pell when he was accused of covering up offenses within the church.
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Lol....fun tune. lol
Yeah I agree they are everywhere in all facets of life. This one just hit close to home and was nutty!!!